The Mountain Dew In Question

[Dlou444]

Okay, so I watched this episode again this morning on TNT and I have some issues with the Mountain Dew.

Okay, so granted, they wrap everything up rather nicely with the prophecy translator disappearing. But, it makes me wonder why they just decide that because there is Mountain Dew in the cup that it must be fake. I can see WONDERING about it, but to jump to that conclusion seems a bit weird.

I mean where does it say that something else was supposed to be in the cup? Seems to me that if the theory is, "I can't be Mountain Dew because it's an 'old prophecy'" kind of lends itself to the fact that what SHOULD have been in the cup was dust and perhaps residue of something else.
Would evaporated water been better? Maybe dust and say goo from evaporated wine?

What would have been more believable? It just seems to ME that if Eve and Lindsey set this up and had it be SO believable for the entire episode, they could have filled it up with water or milk or anything to make it even MORE believable. Heck, if they HAD put something else in it that they would believe, Angel would have been in a DEEPER depression and perhaps they could have taken him down.

I know it doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things. But, in the Mutant Emeny-esque world, it seems odd. Odd that if they would put something "unbelievable" in the cup after all that trouble and odd that both Angel and Spike would just dismiss the whole ordeal as fake just because there was something in the cup that tasted like Mountain Dew. (We have to assume it just tasted that way since I didn't see a can fall out of the cup when Spike turned it up.)
It would have been MORE fun (and believable) if they HAD believed it and in Eve's speech with Lindsey she had come clean about the cup too and let "the boys" dwell on it for a bit longer only to find out later....maybe in "Your Welcome".


Besides, for all WE know, Mountain Dew is TRUELY the Nectar Of The Gods!

[Allycat]

Just for those of us wondering, the discussion is about the Angel episode "Destiny" (5.08).

You have a point there Dlou44. I'm not sure they would've believed it was real if nothing happened. I think they were both waiting for some kind of sign, mystical or magical. Anyway, the fact that Spike won the cup though, did make Angel wonder. Perhaps it even helped him decide to write the destiny away when he joined the Circle of the Black Thorne.

[thegifting]

...the fact that what SHOULD have been in the cup was dust and perhaps residue of something else.
Would evaporated water been better? Maybe dust and say goo from evaporated wine?

...if Eve and Lindsey set this up and had it be SO believable for the entire episode, they could have filled it up with water or milk or anything to make it even MORE believable.

Besides, for all WE know, Mountain Dew is TRUELY the Nectar Of The Gods!
1. The fact that it should have been filled with ______? You take your opinions a bit seriously.

2. Dust? Wine "goo"? Water? MILK? Why in the hell would any of those be "MORE believable"?

3. Perpetual Torment is not "Nectar Of The Gods".

[Dlou444]

1. The fact that it should have been filled with ______? You take your opinions a bit seriously.

2. Dust? Wine "goo"? Water? MILK? Why in the hell would any of those be "MORE believable"?

3. Perpetual Torment is not "Nectar Of The Gods".

Well....

1.) Yes, if the cup had been sitting there for ages, would whatever was in there not evaporated? That's not an opinion, that's science. Try putting something in a cup and leaving it for 100 years, what do you think happens?

2.) Dust...probably would be in the cup if it had been left more than a day or so. Evaporated wine does leave a residue. And I'm just asking, if Mountain Dew is blatantly NOT believable to our "heros" what would have been?

3.) I didn't say Perpetual Torment was the Nectar Of The Gods, I said Moutain Dew. It was sarcastic, first of all and second, it was stated to say how do WE know the all mighty Prophets don't think Moutain Dew isn't the end all be all of drinks to use?

[white avenger]

Well, technically, "drinking from the Cup of Perpetual Torment" just means the act of drinking whatever might be in the cup, so Mountain Dew would have been just as good as water, wine, or anything else. That it was Mountain Dew should have been completely irrelevant.

And, just for the record, Mountain Dew is most certainly NOT the nectar of the gods. Dr Pepper is.

[Dlou444]

And, just for the record, Mountain Dew is most certainly NOT the nectar of the gods. Dr Pepper is.

On the other hand, I think Glory proved that what Gods like is not necessarily what the rest of the world believes is good.

But, back to the theory.

It would seem that for Mountain Dew to be counted out entirely as a possiblity for what SHOULD be in the cup (as they did) then the logical reason would be because it's "new".

But, like I said, if we go the science route, then there would just be dust and/or dust and residue in the cup. OR, for there to be liquid in the cup, it would be all mystical. In which case, what exactly it IS shouldn't be much of an issue.

(And now it doesn't matter how far out my brain goes because if WA agrees, my world is a happy place!)

[Allycat]

For there to be liquid in the cup, it would be all mystical. In which case, what exactly it IS shouldn't be much of an issue.

While I agree, you also have to consider the odds in this case. What are the odds that of all liquids Mountain Dew is the one filling a mystical cup? What are the odds of Mountain Dew filling a wild-goose-chase fake cup? Sure, Spike couldn't have known that it was fake, I give you that, but the odds that it was real were very slim to none.

What's probably more important, is that the writers slacked off a bit and thought oh we'll throw something silly and modern in it, so that the characters and audience can find out in a funny and simple way that it is fake, neverminding that it doesn't make the most of sense.

[white avenger]

While I agree, you also have to consider the odds in this case. What are the odds that of all liquids Mountain Dew is the one filling a mystical cup? What are the odds of Mountain Dew filling a wild-goose-chase fake cup? Sure, Spike couldn't have known that it was fake, I give you that, but the odds that it was real were very slim to none.

What's probably more important, is that the writers slacked off a bit and thought oh we'll throw something silly and modern in it, so that the characters and audience can find out in a funny and simple way that it is fake, neverminding that it doesn't make the most of sense.


I would have to say that the odds for it being Mountain Dew would be about the same as it being water, or wine, or blood, or pig sweat for that matter. In other words, as likely M D as anything else, or even nothing, sort of like the Indiana Junes Holy Grail thing. He poured water into it, but anything else would have done just as well. It was the ACT of drinking from the cup, not the contents itself.

[Dlou444]

While I agree, you also have to consider the odds in this case. What are the odds that of all liquids Mountain Dew is the one filling a mystical cup? What are the odds of Mountain Dew filling a wild-goose-chase fake cup? Sure, Spike couldn't have known that it was fake, I give you that, but the odds that it was real were very slim to none.

What's probably more important, is that the writers slacked off a bit and thought oh we'll throw something silly and modern in it, so that the characters and audience can find out in a funny and simple way that it is fake, neverminding that it doesn't make the most of sense.


I have to agree with WA on the first part. Mountain Dew, Frappuccino, urine....all the same odds, it seems to me. In fact, it seems to me that the odds of something more "serious" would go into a FAKE cup. Because you'd be TRYING to make it look more realistic.

The second part, I agree with. Although, I can't help but feel that had Wesley been in this episode some more thought would have been given to whether or not we toss out the whole ordeal just because of Mountain Dew. Even if it meant someone just had to write a line for Wesley to say.

All in all, it's just oddly written. I mean, once they DID throw out the cup and the guy who read the prophecy as bunk....why would they not throw out all the rest of it? Sure, Angel could still sulk that Spike beat him. But, they seem to actually believe the theory that the prophecy has something to do with the mysterious happenings.
I just kept wanting to say, "Can't you CALL Wesley?" It just seems so off with the normal goings on.
They assume the cup is fake based on something at least mildly questionable. They take the translator guy leaving as proof. But, then don't count out the rest of the issues as not relating to the prophecy or even seem to try to get it RE-translated by someone else. It just seems so weird.

Good episode on normal TV standards, but just off in Whedon standards.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I don't actually understand what you're getting at here Dlou

The second part, I agree with. Although, I can't help but feel that had Wesley been in this episode some more thought would have been given to whether or not we toss out the whole ordeal just because of Mountain Dew. Even if it meant someone just had to write a line for Wesley to say.

All in all, it's just oddly written. I mean, once they DID throw out the cup and the guy who read the prophecy as bunk....why would they not throw out all the rest of it? Sure, Angel could still sulk that Spike beat him. But, they seem to actually believe the theory that the prophecy has something to do with the mysterious happenings.
I just kept wanting to say, "Can't you CALL Wesley?" It just seems so off with the normal goings on.
They assume the cup is fake based on something at least mildly questionable. They take the translator guy leaving as proof. But, then don't count out the rest of the issues as not relating to the prophecy or even seem to try to get it RE-translated by someone else. It just seems so weird.

Seems to me you're suggesting that Angel and Co should take the shaking and the eyes bleeding as part of the hoax BUT there is a throwaway line that substantiates it ALL as legit, except the Sirk/Cup stuff.

Eve makes a comment

Senior partners stepped in. Apparently they were working on the problem since it started. They managed to temporarily stabilize the universal equilibrium.

Soul Purpose isn't for another 2 episodes, so as far as Angel and the Gang are concerned, Eve is working for TSP's without question. Yes they doubt the motives of TSP's but this seems like a plausible thing.

Plus, with or without Sirk, there is a certain level of plausibility to the whole thing. I don't see anything actually wrong here - please explain what was wrong.

Thanks

[Dlou444]

I don't actually understand what you're getting at here Dlou



Seems to me you're suggesting that Angel and Co should take the shaking and the eyes bleeding as part of the hoax BUT there is a throwaway line that substantiates it ALL as legit, except the Sirk/Cup stuff.






I'm gonna try, but I'm flying blind here because I'm going on the theory, that no one trusts Eve anway. So, just her SAYING the Senior Partners stepped in, does not make it true and not only are they smart enough to know that, they mention it in the episode when Gunn goes batty on her.

Look at it this way. (Granted most of this would turn it into a 3 hour episode and I'm aware of that. I'm thinking more in Angel World and not Network Television As A Whole World.) Let's say the Mountain Dew makes the cup and the venture to get it at the very least questionable in their minds. So, they go back to find Sirk and find him gone. Sure, that COULD mean he ran off. Or it could mean any number of things in their world. If this were the beginning of an episode or if Wesley were there...they'd be hunting this guy down or having someone else translate the prophecy to see just how much of the crap about finding the cup was actually true.
Instead, they say...okay, his translation AND the cup were both hoaxes. Up pops Eve saying the Senior Partners fixed everything and the Shanshu thing is still an issue. And they just seem to accept that.
Sure, maybe the Senior Partners DID fix it all. She seems to allude to that when talking to Lindsey, but then admits SHE threw the universe INTO flux.

So, when faced with everything went all wonky, they decide the cup AND everything Sirk said was a hoax and yet, they believe what Eve says? They don't trust her OR the Senior Partners. But, they don't make Wesley retranslate or use his "magic books" when he gets back or anything.


It just feels like they decide the cup and Sirk are a hoax based on very little actual evidence (like it tastes like Mountain Dew and Sirk is missing) but then they believe Eve without a second thought. Which I can't see happening if the end of the episode were happening at the beginning of one.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm gonna try, but I'm flying blind here because I'm going on the theory, that no one trusts Eve anway. So, just her SAYING the Senior Partners stepped in, does not make it true and not only are they smart enough to know that, they mention it in the episode when Gunn goes batty on her.

Look at it this way. (Granted most of this would turn it into a 3 hour episode and I'm aware of that. I'm thinking more in Angel World and not Network Television As A Whole World.) Let's say the Mountain Dew makes the cup and the venture to get it at the very least questionable in their minds. So, they go back to find Sirk and find him gone. Sure, that COULD mean he ran off. Or it could mean any number of things in their world. If this were the beginning of an episode or if Wesley were there...they'd be hunting this guy down or having someone else translate the prophecy to see just how much of the crap about finding the cup was actually true.
Instead, they say...okay, his translation AND the cup were both hoaxes. Up pops Eve saying the Senior Partners fixed everything and the Shanshu thing is still an issue. And they just seem to accept that.
Sure, maybe the Senior Partners DID fix it all. She seems to allude to that when talking to Lindsey, but then admits SHE threw the universe INTO flux.

So, when faced with everything went all wonky, they decide the cup AND everything Sirk said was a hoax and yet, they believe what Eve says? They don't trust her OR the Senior Partners. But, they don't make Wesley retranslate or use his "magic books" when he gets back or anything.


It just feels like they decide the cup and Sirk are a hoax based on very little actual evidence (like it tastes like Mountain Dew and Sirk is missing) but then they believe Eve without a second thought. Which I can't see happening if the end of the episode were happening at the beginning of one.

See here is the problem.

Granted no one trusts Eve or the Senior Partners, but that doesn't mean they believe Eve is betraying the SP's at this point - far from it.
I'm sure Angel and co believe that someone like Eve wouldn't be stupid enough to double cross them - not until later.
So all the stuff she says she learned from the Seers, thats separate from what Sirk tells them.

Also, its Gunn that suggests that they need to talk to someone immediately about the Prophecy.

Eve did manipulate them in this, but they can be forgiven for not putting the two bits together quite so quickly.

[Dlou444]

See here is the problem.

Granted no one trusts Eve or the Senior Partners, but that doesn't mean they believe Eve is betraying the SP's at this point - far from it.
I'm sure Angel and co believe that someone like Eve wouldn't be stupid enough to double cross them - not until later.
So all the stuff she says she learned from the Seers, thats separate from what Sirk tells them.

Also, its Gunn that suggests that they need to talk to someone immediately about the Prophecy.

Eve did manipulate them in this, but they can be forgiven for not putting the two bits together quite so quickly.


I love you! Not many people in the world I can agree with AND disagree with at the same time.
Even if they didn't think Eve would betray the SPs....Eve works for the SP and so does Sirk. And they don't TRUST the SPs. Suddenly, Spike shows up, then suddenly he's corporeal, and the whole office goes nuts and then there's this guy who tells them a lie and then disappears. There's no saying the SP aren't behind ALL of these things. For all they know, Angel and Co know, the SPs were doing yet one more thing to cause trouble, made up a faulty prophecy for Sirk to read and then "disposed" of him.
You have to admit, if it weren't the end of the episode, they'd have been trying to track Sirk down to make him tell them why he lied.

So, while I DO agree they had no real reason to suspect Eve of trying to undermind them AND the SP...they had no reason to believe that the SPs were telling Eve the truth and every reason to believe that something bigger was up and no real reason to trust Eve's explanation. Especially once they dismissed the cup AND the phoney addendum prophecy about the cup.

[Blondie Bear]

It's possible the writers just didn't know what the fark they were doing by this point. It seems that happens a lot where Spike's concerned.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I love you!

Not the first and won't be the last:)



Not many people in the world I can agree with AND disagree with at the same time.

Hehe, I am a walking conundrum, it is my gift and my curse!!


Even if they didn't think Eve would betray the SPs....Eve works for the SP and so does Sirk. And they don't TRUST the SPs. Suddenly, Spike shows up, then suddenly he's corporeal, and the whole office goes nuts and then there's this guy who tells them a lie and then disappears.

Exactly, he disappears - Eve doesn't.

Lets for a moment place ourselves in that scene.

Sirks 'runner' suggests he is hiding something where as Eve staying gives the impression that she has nothing to fear, as though everything she said she believed.
If that is the case then it isn't a huge leap for Team Angel to have the two groups as separate considering the complete disarray that they are in.
This is the middle of the teams complete and utter break down. They've all lost their way for one reason or another and in this mixed up world, the only 'people' who have been truthful and honest about their intentions are the Senior Partners.



You have to admit, if it weren't the end of the episode, they'd have been trying to track Sirk down to make him tell them why he lied.


Absolutely, I absolutely agree. Heck, end of the world crap like this, Angel should have had Wesley on the first flight back from whatever rock he was licking his wounds under.



So, while I DO agree they had no real reason to suspect Eve of trying to undermind them AND the SP...they had no reason to believe that the SPs were telling Eve the truth and every reason to believe that something bigger was up and no real reason to trust Eve's explanation. Especially once they dismissed the cup AND the phoney addendum prophecy about the cup.

You are forgetting one thing.

The time and effort that the SP's had placed in Angel BEING the Vampire with a Soul mentioned in the prophecy. They have invested alot of time on the assumption that Angel is that Vampire, if it was to turn out it was Spike, they really WOULD be pissed off.

[Dlou444]

Still gotta disagree on some points....

Exactly, he disappears - Eve doesn't.

Lets for a moment place ourselves in that scene.

Sirks 'runner' suggests he is hiding something where as Eve staying gives the impression that she has nothing to fear, as though everything she said she believed.
If that is the case then it isn't a huge leap for Team Angel to have the two groups as separate considering the complete disarray that they are in.
This is the middle of the teams complete and utter break down. They've all lost their way for one reason or another and in this mixed up world, the only 'people' who have been truthful and honest about their intentions are the Senior Partners.

Even if we assume Sirk's absence makes him look more guilty than Eve. And, even if we could assume that they actually trust that what Eve is saying she thinks is true. There is still the problem where they don't trust the SPs and Sirk works for them. Which would mean they should have been questioning a heck of a lot. If ONLY why Sirk would want both Angel and Spike out of the building and on a "road trip". MORE Questions needed to be raised and WOULD have been by the AI I've come to know and love.

And....

You are forgetting one thing.

The time and effort that the SP's had placed in Angel BEING the Vampire with a Soul mentioned in the prophecy. They have invested alot of time on the assumption that Angel is that Vampire, if it was to turn out it was Spike, they really WOULD be pissed off.

Oh no, I did NOT forget that at all! It's one of the things that had me screaming at the TV this morning. Because it would be JUST the kind of thing the SP would do. (And the whole gang minus Spike would know this and should have discussed it) that the SPs have done and will do just about anything to break Angel's will (Darla) and try and sway them to their side for this upcoming apocalypse. What would be BETTER than trying to convince him that Spike is the TRUE CHAMPION and Angel's just a big fat nobody other than CEO of WR&H? Had it been THEIR plan instead of stupid Eve's....I'd have to say it would have been EXTREMELY well played and probably no Mountain Dew to be seen!