Boring? [Archive] - Buffy-Boards

thegifting

03-07-2008, 11:32 PM

Season 5 is the only one I can remotely stand. The rest of them felt pointless and, well, boring to me.
I feel ill now from what you said.

Anyway, I was never into anything having to do with Angel (or Buffy) until I caught some S5 episodes on a local station every Sunday night at 1am. After I found myself waiting for Sunday night I bought up Buffy 1-3, then Angel 1-5, just to find out his complete story. I love all the other seasons, but I'm partial to 5 for it's writing/dialogue, production values, the entire Fred/Illyria saga ('A Hole In The World' - 'Not Fade Away' [I consider it so because the entire feel of the show went nuclear because of Illyria]), and the heavy rememberance of Doyle. S5 felt the most genuine to me, with Cordy's ep, Connor, Fred, Wesley, Charles...

I can understand people liking is less than other seasons, but I wouldn't consider it "boring" by any stretch.

Aussie

03-08-2008, 02:17 AM

I didnt get into Angel until I saw season 5 on TV either - then I went and saw the rest. I think if it had been any other season but season 5, I probably wouldnt have bothered with it :p
I thought season 4 was more boring overall (with a few great stand alone eps :p) but I still enjoyed it :)
So season 5 - not boring by my standards ;)

Tranquillity

03-08-2008, 02:53 AM

I love season five of Angle - it is by far and away my favourite seaon in the Buffyverse hands down. I love Spike and Angel together (not in a slashy way) hense my avatar. IMO, this season is full of awesome episodes that seem stand-alone but, below the surface so much more is going on. It is a season that gets better the more you watch it.

Cangel

03-08-2008, 03:28 AM

Yup, I found it a bit boring. Especially the first few episodes. As both a Cordy fan and Cangel shipper you can imagine what episode was the only one I REALLY liked.
It wasn't like the season was bad, it had it's episodes (You're Welcome; A Hole in the World, Smile Time) it was just different and strange, which imo Cordy-less was responsible for. And not only Cordy, s5 was running short of interesting females in general. I mean really, they gave us Harmony

thegifting

03-08-2008, 03:56 AM

I mean really, they cursed us with Harmony

FIXED

She was tolerable at times, but she's pointless in every way.

Edmund Blackadder

03-08-2008, 05:25 AM

Boring....BORING?

Were we watching the same show?!?!?!

It took me a while to get into Angel, infact I wasn't really a fan until the season 1 episode 'Hero'. My first time viewing of Doyle I wan't impressed, but as I watched the show grow over time, it just got so much better.

Of course every season has maybe one episode that I don't particularly favour, season 5's for me was 'Cautionary Tale', I just find it slow BUT the the underlying message was great.

However, even though I dislike Lindsay and Eve was an unbelievably inferior Lilah, even they in the season have good moments in, what I think, a wonderful arc.

When I first heard Spike would join JUST because of pressure from execs, I was annoyed. Sure I loved his character in Buffy and all, but I hate meddling and I knew Joss and Co would still make him work, it frustrated me.
Anyway, all my annoyances departed as I watched the season. Spike was magnificent when he was on form, particularly loved him in 'Why we Fight' and yes I missed Cordelia but here is the thing - she didn't make the show for me.

When she wasn't there I was still left with other great characters and the writers and in a way, I felt part of the show because it was obvious we were feeling the loss as much as Angel and the Gang.

No, to call season 5 boring is incredibly wrong, calling any season boring is IMMENSELY wrong and silly and you're not silly, are you?

Hello Cutie

03-10-2008, 09:24 AM

Excuse me?? Boring!! Oh contrare mon-frere! (Sorry, I had to get than in somewhere, I love that Xander quote!)

For me season 5 was the best season of the lot, and I'm gutted that the series ended after a season that amazing!!

The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco is amazing.. the underlying story is genius, and I always wondered about that guy until they made the episode about him.... also, on a personal note, I watch WWE wrestling (yes, i know its fake) and my boyfriend adores it, so I think I might finally be able to make him watch an episode that he'll enjoy! (So far he's managed avoid watching any BTVS or Angel at all!)

Anyway, sorry, digressing.... I thought season 5 was brilliant... I loved that Lindsay came back with a vengance, and although Lilah wasn't there anymore *sniff* Eve and Lindsay did work well together... and you know what, I kinda liked Eve in a really annoying way- she worked the whole 'sweetness and light, with a dark and chewy centre' thing, as I would call it!

And I personally, think some of the dialogue in season 5 is some of the best dialogue of both Buffy and Angel... I love that they brought Spike in, and its led to some of my favourite moments in Angel, and the dialogue between them nearly always makes me laugh (from astronauts and cave men, to the whole way Spike kept appearing everywhere to piss Angel off when he was incorporeal). I always wanted to see what they'd be like having to work together, because we got a little taster of it in season 2, but that was Angelus, who's not nearly as easy for Spike to wind up!!

Anyway, Season 5 was not boring... I really missed Cordy in it (never thought i'd say that), but the way the season was laid out and the dialogue and stories behind it more than made up for the whole thing.

eponinethen

03-10-2008, 09:36 AM

For me season 5 was the best season of the lot, and I'm gutted that the series ended after a season that amazing!!
Mhm I'm with you. Season five of AtS was one of the best TV show seasons ever made in my opinion. All the characters had developed into these awesome characters that just functioned so frakking well in this show together. Yeah. Love. Perfect.

Joyce Summers

03-10-2008, 09:39 AM

Season 5 was my favorite season besides season 1.

I mean yeah, Cordylessness was a big upset and you definitely feel the loss of the spark she brought to the show at some points, but I found the chemistry between Angel and Spike more than made up for it. I have never laughed as hard as the scenes involving them two. It's just absolutely wonderful; I love it. I mean The Odd Couple or what? :)

Plus this is the season that brought me my long awaited Fresley. No matter how darned short lived it was. Curses!

And contrary to the rest of you, I actually liked Harmony. She was just so exactly like she was in High School it didn't fit in the grown-up world in such a humorous way. Watching Harmony on screen was always entertaining.

Hello Cutie

03-10-2008, 09:47 AM

And contrary to the rest of you, I actually liked Harmony.

Oh I loved her... I thought she was a brilliant character, and I was so happy when she got her own title bit in the intro in season 5!! She deserved it, her character has been solid and dependable throughout the whole of Buffy and Angel- silly, airheaded and so so funny!

And I loved when she 'betrayed' Angel and co's trust in season 5, and then asks for a reference! I love that Angel knew it and had already given her one as well!! And her arguement for the betrayal that it was because she was always out of the loop-y is so funny considering Angel's response that it was because she didn't have a soul!!

At first i kinda thought that she should have been staked cuz you know, bloodsucker and all that, but she's so adorable you just couldn't bring yourself to stake her could you!!

Joyce Summers

03-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Oh I loved her... I thought she was a brilliant character, and I was so happy when she got her own title bit in the intro in season 5!! She deserved it, her character has been solid and dependable throughout the whole of Buffy and Angel- silly, airheaded and so so funny!

And I loved when she 'betrayed' Angel and co's trust in season 5, and then asks for a reference! I love that Angel knew it and had already given her one as well!! And her arguement for the betrayal that it was because she was always out of the loop-y is so funny considering Angel's response that it was because she didn't have a soul!!

At first i kinda thought that she should have been staked cuz you know, bloodsucker and all that, but she's so adorable you just couldn't bring yourself to stake her could you!!

All those Harmony scenes you mentioned; I loved them! Especially the reference/resume scene. In the midst of all the crazy apocalypse stuff, while Angel is in fact getting the crap kicked out of him and is fighting to stay he alive, he does have to time to stop and have this conversation/argument with Harmony. It's just great comic relief.

And that is something I always loved Harmony for; the comedy she brought to any scene.

I'm so happy I'm not the only Harmony fan! haha

Entiel

03-10-2008, 11:05 AM

Nah season 5 wasn't boring at all...Actually it was one of the best seasons...I love all Buffy and Angel seasons and I can't say that there's a season in AtS that I dislike or find boring...Season 1 slowly introducing W&H,the PTB and the main characters and the series developed and got better and better...my only problem is that I grew a bit tired of W&H(I will begin a thread about it)but seasons 4 and 5 really made a difference in the show...and I really missed Cordy,but new characters came at the show(Spike-Illyria) and they are a fair compensation for her absence...

Hello Cutie

03-10-2008, 11:22 AM

that is something I always loved Harmony for; the comedy she brought to any scene.

I'm so happy I'm not the only Harmony fan! haha

No way!! I love her! I think she's genius as a character.. and proof that not all vampires are badass, and some do suck at unlife (ooh see what i did there, 'suck' :P sorry im a loser!)- i mean Buffy summed her up when she said how she was 'bad' when she was a human, and now she's a vamp and trying to be bad... she's just not! But thats why i love her, and im so glad she had a bigger part in season 5, cuz she was always a character i wanted to see more of because watching her is like having a little something from Sunnydale High injected into the big bad real world, cuz she's exactly the same now as she was then!!

Werewolf

03-21-2008, 09:43 PM

season five was entertaining for me, i love cordy and all but.. i don't know the season seemed more balanced than the crazy, weird and scary season four

jasonsix

03-22-2008, 12:12 AM

The first half of Season 5 is the worst ever on Angel, but the second half might be the best. Its a really difficult season for me to judge on the whole, and I think I rate it just below season 2 and 4 (S4 was probably horrible to sit through on a weekly basis, but I saw it on DVD in 2 days and thought it was a very thrilling, albeit depressing ride).

Hello Cutie

03-22-2008, 08:02 AM

I've already said it 3 or 4 times, but once again. Season 5 was probably the best season of Angel. Cordylessness didn't bother me so much, and there was more than fair compensation in Spike and Illyria.. I loved the twist with Fred becoming Illyria too.
The dialogue as well, was some of the best dialogue I've ever seen in Angel. I'll be honest, I was never an Angel fan.. I found it too dark and boring (and when it first started, too grown up for my tastes- there wasn't the light-hearted comedy scenes you got in Buffy. But I watched them all once I had them on dvd, and there is a marked change in the feel of Angel between seasons 1-4 and season 5.

Season 5 was lighter, despite the deaths and the drama that went on.. the characters had developed and it was as though someone had finally injected some fun into them.. the dialogue was more playful and entertaining than previous seasons, and the whole season in general had me far more interested than seasons 1-4.. I was gutted it ended when it had just started to get good.

Fireball

03-22-2008, 05:50 PM

I loved S5, I thought the makeover the show good was fantastic and much needed, the W&H building was such a breath of fresh air too see. I thought it had some of the best, and funniest, episodes of the whole series and some of its best moments too. I never found it boring one bit, but maybe thats because Im the biggest fan of anything Angel. lol

Monty

03-23-2008, 01:52 PM

Season 5 is my favorite Angel season, and I find it everything but boring! Angel and Spike bickering, Illyria, Fred and Wesley (finally)... I just love it.

codyw1

03-31-2008, 07:33 PM

Season 5 is my second favourite, behind the awesome and epic 4.

To be honest, I find seasons 2 and 3 boring. I might even skip them on the next rewatch. I'm not a big Cordy fan anyway, so her absence in 5 doesn't bother me in the slightest. Spike's better, anyway.

nerd4hire

03-31-2008, 09:33 PM

Season 5 is my favorite of Buffy or Angel.

LittleMissLikesToFight

04-01-2008, 07:22 AM

and uh... please ignore my post i was so thinking i was in the season 5 Buffy forum!

eunsoma

04-03-2008, 06:40 PM

rewatching it now and YES!! lol, boring...

Crazy Flakes

04-12-2008, 09:57 PM

I don't see how you could think that season 5 was boring! I mean, sure, the lack of Cordy was upsetting, but they added their fix of sarcasm and wit by throwing Spike and Harmony into the mix. Spike added a certain spark to the show, especially in his scenes with Angel, and I absolutely loved Harmony. She's just a hilarious character. And, even without all the new comic relief, it was the most dramatic season, without a doubt. The entire Fred/Illyria/Wesley arc was almost flawless. I've seen A Hole In the World six times, and I still sob every time I watch it, and Wesley's death was heartbreaking (although Illyria killing Cyvus Vail had to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen!) Even though, for the most part, I've always enjoyed Buffy more than Angel, season 5 of Angel definitely rivals some of Buffy's better seasons.

Notice that everyone saying season 5 is boring has Cordelia listed as their favorite character...

zombie.apparatus

11-05-2008, 04:47 AM

WHAT BORING?!?! nuh uh.
I thought it was really good! Yes it wasn't as humourous as the first four seasons (aka coredelia :)) , and i noticed fred's death made wesley's humour die down and he was really depressed, but i think the whole angel & team being in charge of wolfram and heart had to happen, it was sort of destined to happen. I think season five tied all the knots with the story, my only con was the ending, it was all rather rushed. You watch season 5 and than smack the ending, i just didnt see the show ending like that at all. I dont know, season 5 was good and behind all of the business stuff kind of intense! I havent read season 6 yet, so ill have to do that :)

AgentX7k

11-05-2008, 06:17 AM

InsaneMystic

11-07-2008, 11:49 AM

I found it extremely boring, mostly because it followed Season 4. It's like going from a roller coaster to a merry-go-around, it didn't match S4's caliber until AHITW/Shells, though those were two of the greatest episodes in the whole show it didn't save the season. There were some great stand-alones but they are few and far between with no continuing arc worth mentioning, I think that's the main problem. It's forgivable in Season 1 because a) They're still finding their footing and b) You know it gets better, neither apply to Season 5.
So true! In S4, 2/3 of the ep endings were cliffhangers of a magintude that made me stare wide-eyed and open-mouthed at the screen, anxiously awaiting next Monday... and then along comes S5, where you have to search for an arc with a microscope (until the last 2 or 3 eps, where they start rushing an arc in...). Very disappointing.

Even if Spike's resurrection cheapened his character by watering down his sacrifice in Chosen, he was damn necessary for S5 Angel - he was hilarious, saving the season from becoming bleh many times.

littlewilly

11-07-2008, 11:56 AM

Season 5 wasnt that great, but it was pretty much saved by Spike. I loved the chemistry between Spike and Angel. There was soooo much crap stuff about s5 though, like the first 7 eps, and Nina, and Illyria, and boring Wes, and the blackthorn(worst bigbad ever?) there was hardly any Lorne, yeah, in fact, Ats was on a downward spiral since the end of season 2.

LifeIsJustThis

11-08-2008, 11:26 PM

did anyone else find season five extremely boring?
I love Spike and all but without Cordelia I would get bored
to death during the scenes with no action or anything I was
about to fall asleep! :nibble6:

I think this kind of started with the boring in the end of season
four, then all of season five pretty much bored me to death!
Anyone else feel this way?

Really, you thought five was boring? That's interesting. I guess it was kinda "talky" at times - but like that because it helps establish character.

SpoonsAreCool

11-08-2008, 11:38 PM

Nah, nah, nah. I LOVED season 5, my two favourite seasons of Angel are season 1 and season 5. You had Angel as chairman of WR&H, Fred's death/Illyria, Spike back from the dead, Andrew, MORE LINDSEY and no more weird Connor and Cordelia lovin'.

Some amazing episodes, A Hole In the World is one of my favourite episodes, ever. Smile Time, Life of the Party, are both hilarious.

The Ferg

11-09-2008, 12:24 PM

I could understand why you might not like S5 that much, but it's in no way boring. I couldn't get enough of it. Although I admittedly I like Cordy and Fred A LOT better than Spike and Illyria.

PurplePoof

11-16-2008, 05:27 PM

Season 5 to me was just all over the place...it was TOO radical of a change, too many stand-alones, WAY TOO MUCH SPIKE and NO CORDELIA OR LILAH. I just thought the entire idea was lacking, and I found the Illyria storyline both ludicrious and uninspired.

littlewilly

11-16-2008, 08:41 PM

InsaneMystic

11-17-2008, 06:16 AM

I agree too, except for the Spike thing... Spike's presence and the A/S banter was what saved more than one episode from becoming total bleh. (Which, in itself, isn't a compliment to the season. Needing a new character to make the season work = bad thing.)

Charlie Kaur

11-17-2008, 08:22 AM

InsaneMystic

11-17-2008, 11:39 AM

I thought 5 was the best, it made me laugh A LOT -Harmony and Spike were hilarious, as was Angel turning into a puppet. It was the only season of Angel that had the same charm as Buffy. On the whole I found Angel to be stylistically confused and so erratic and so qualitively uneven.
Indeed, I laughed a lot too - and "Smile Time", especially, is one of the few ATS episodes that can go toe to toe with the best hours of Buffy in my book. However, the humor question brings me back to what I said about Spike above. About 85% of the funnyness derived from Spike. A big part of the season would hardly be worth watching without him - which is bad for a series that is called "Angel" instead of "Spike", and did not feature him (except for one guest ep) in the four previous seasons!

Compared to S4, which kept me hanging on the edge of my seat every Monday night, I found S5 to be majorly disappointing due to a near total lack of arc. Yes, it's true that the S4 arc has holes (big enough holes that it noticably loses "punch" on 2nd viewing, but at first viewing it was GREAT) - the "S5 arc", however, IS a big fat hole of nothingness. :p Except for "Hole in the World/Shells", you can pretty much watch the eps in any random order you want, even skip a week or two, and hardly note a difference. I simply expect more from the Whedonverse.

PurplePoof

11-17-2008, 02:39 PM

I agree. The lack of arc is what really hurt it in the end...and the little arcs it DID have were not remotely compelling or interesting. It just trudged along until it ended.

Edmund Blackadder

11-17-2008, 05:03 PM

Umm, if I remember correctly, two of the reasons we were allowed season 5 were that James Marsters be brought on board and that the show didn't rely on an arc because the network wanted more people to come on board - because they lost viewers in season 4.

As for saying that Spike being '85%' of the funny of 'Angel' well um, can I call that a very lame comment.

Cordelia was pretty much the humour of Angel particularly the first couple of seasons, why aren't you complaining that she was '85%' of the humour. Same with Wesley?

Its not even like Spike was a new character. He was a well established character in the verse already, we knew what to expect from him AND most of his 'funny' was when he was WITH Angel, giving Angel some of the credit.

Season 5 has its issues. I didn't like Cautionary Tale, and I felt that 'Why we Fight' should have been done earlier in the season BUT I have to admit, I was quite happy that the show was less arc-y. Took it back to its roots, or do you forget that season 1 was this kind of show?

Angel, the character, was not supposed to be the comic relief, the shows established comic relief had left and in a show as dark as Angel can be, you need humour, you need light so I am thankful that Spike provided it because IF Angel didn't have Spike in season 5 AND we take the official story that CC wasn't going to be in season 5 anyway then we would have had an entirely new character to fill the 'comic' gap and I prefered Spike.

InsaneMystic

11-18-2008, 01:04 AM

As for saying that Spike being '85%' of the funny of 'Angel' well um, can I call that a very lame comment.

Cordelia was pretty much the humour of Angel particularly the first couple of seasons, why aren't you complaining that she was '85%' of the humour. Same with Wesley?
Duh, BotD... I can't believe you seriously see no difference in 85% of the humour being carried by a core main cast character who was there from episode 1, as compared to by a more or less "ratings gimmick" addition introduced after four seasons did well without him!?!

And you can't really compare that to Wes, who, even though he wasn't there from ep 1, at least got included into the main cast in S1 and was there ever since. Besides, he had been a pretty minor character in Buffy for half a season, while Spike was one of BTVS's main viewer magnets. To bring him over felt cheap and gimmicky, even if he, of course, did the trick he was supposed to do remarkably well (you wouldn't expect otherwise from either the role or the actor, anyway).

Angel, the character, was not supposed to be the comic relief, the shows established comic relief had left and in a show as dark as Angel can be, you need humour, you need light so I am thankful that Spike provided it because IF Angel didn't have Spike in season 5 AND we take the official story that CC wasn't going to be in season 5 anyway then we would have had an entirely new character to fill the 'comic' gap and I prefered Spike.
How about Lorne? The writers gave him way too little to do in S5 anyway.

Edmund Blackadder

11-18-2008, 05:18 AM

Duh, BotD... I can't believe you seriously see no difference in 85% of the humour being carried by a core main cast character who was there from episode 1, as compared to by a more or less "ratings gimmick" addition introduced after four seasons did well without him!?!

And you can't really compare that to Wes, who, even though he wasn't there from ep 1, at least got included into the main cast in S1 and was there ever since. Besides, he had been a pretty minor character in Buffy for half a season, while Spike was one of BTVS's main viewer magnets. To bring him over felt cheap and gimmicky, even if he, of course, did the trick he was supposed to do remarkably well (you wouldn't expect otherwise from either the role or the actor, anyway).

I think you will find I can.

Let us take as fact that Charisma Carpenter left because thats what the story was going to do. Someone would need to fulfil that role (even though Cordy hadn't been the comic relief since mid season 3 - and you could feel that in the show).

Spike, with a hugely developed, but little seen in comparison, relationship with the lead character was perfect for the role. Even if we pretend that Joss was the one who forced this (when in fact it was one of the stipulations by the studio for an extra season), he is the perfect choice for the season as it stands.

Spike and Angel are the same but different.
They were sired by someone they had a relationship with
They let themselves be sired
The both killed parents
They both loved a particular Slayer
They both averted apocalypses
They both had a soul.

The same but different is how they tackled these things.

The reason Spike was perfect for this season was because he antithesis of everything Angel had to do in this season.
Spike was a badass but he would do the right thing.

The fact that he was also the humour in the show, well, Spike has always been funny, and the fact we didn't have funny Cordelia and even that worked against Angel - not really the comic relief.

Angel has his moments BUT he wasn't the funny one - he was the broody one.

How about Lorne? The writers gave him way too little to do in S5 anyway.
Lorne was a wasted opportunity in season 5 granted BUT he shouldn't have been the comic relief. His small arc was great, showing how doing the right thing, while just and good, was actually having a detrimental effect on him.

Airam

11-18-2008, 07:06 PM

While I don't think S5 of Angel is the best season (I'd reserve that honor for S2 or 3) I did enjoy it. I didn't like that they were pressured by the network to do away with an arc heavy storyline for more standalones cause I really enjoy the arcs, but I really did like every episode with the exception of Cautionary Tale... and Unleashed. The Spike thing though, despite the things he did bring to S5, I still much rather have had Cordy still there over him, if it had to be one or the other.

PurplePoof

11-18-2008, 08:54 PM

I completely agree with InsaneMystic about Spike being nothing more than a gimmick. Why was it necessary to even replace Cordelia? Why couldn't they have just continued on with the already existing cast? All were capable of being humorous and causing drama. I know it was a stab at a ratings grab because Spike was such a popular character, but what I hated more than anything was how much his being on AtS just completely cheapened his death in Chosen...his "heroic" death should have made even a staunch Spike hater like me like him a little more. The fact they killed him just to bring him back to life on another show made me hate him even more...

Edmund Blackadder

11-18-2008, 09:26 PM

Season 5 would not have made sense if Cordelia had stayed and quite frankly I love the idea of Angel working in Wolfram and Hart.

She was his his guidance, his go to gal and without her he was clearly lost.

I don't know what actually happened between Joss/Charisma/rest of gang and neither does anyone one else, however if she had any ill will towards any of them, particularly Joss then she wouldn't have come back for the 100th, I mean its not like they believed the show was ending that season.

Now, lets not forget that Charisma had just had a baby. Its not totally unreasonable to think that she was written out for that reason - so with that, then the characters couldn't stay the same.

The ONLY way Spikes resurrection cheapens his death is if you let it. I find his death in Chosen and his moment with Buffy one of the most beautiful moments in the show, in the season 5 episode of Angel where he plans to go find Buffy but decides he can't that adds to his character in my opinion.

With Cordelia gone, we needed someone who could fill her rather splendid shoes and Harmony, as much as I love her, really couldn't.

They needed a heavy weight and someone hilarious and they got Spike.

Yes thats down to Network intervention but I honestly don't care why he is there, I am truly glad.

Season 5 has some of my absolute favourite episodes in it and the lack of an arc is perfect as a comment on Angels lack of direction.

InsaneMystic

11-19-2008, 04:18 AM

BotD, I definitely see your points there, still I uphold my assessment.

Of course Spike fit in, and of course he was a great addition to the cast. My complaint is that he was too good an addition, pretty much taking over the show. That is what I meant with my "the show is called 'Angel', not 'Spike'" comment. I'm certainly aware that Angel as character could never be the "humorous one"; that he is so in funny in "his moments", as you call them (e.g., that hilarious party dance, or the transformation in "Smile Time") is because they are just that: moments contrasting his general depressive brooding.

My problem with Spike in S5 is, it would have been dead boring without him. That's what I mean with his "taking over", and that's never a good thing for a new character to do. Heck, 2/3 of the people on this board complain that after Connor showed up through the portal, the general plot turned into "let's react to what Connor does". I see the same pattern here with Spike, and it bugs me.

And as for the studio execs forcing Joss into "scrap the arc, and add Spike" to get a 5th season done... well, there's a word for that: Selling out. Don't get me wrong, it's still much better than having no S5 at all, especially as there was great humour in the season. It's just that selling out is such a non-Joss concept that it leaves a bad aftertaste. A sizeable part of the appeal of Joss' work has always been his defiance of the wishes of the mainstream.

Kana

11-19-2008, 09:50 AM

The first thing I'd say is that in my opinion, a 'bad' season of Ats and Btvs, is still better than a 'good' season of some other shows.

As for Spike, I'd agree that it was transparent that he was there to bring the Btvs crowd which indeed angered a lot of 'Ats purists' however I loved him there and this is coming from an Angel fan.

I think Spike's biggest development to date was in Damage or Shells were he became a lot more internallt motivated rather doing what he thinks his mother wanted, or Dru wanted or what Buffy wanted. Finally we get an insight into what Spike wanted as soulled vampire: huge character arc.

I agree with Botd in terms of Cordy, Angel never would have gone through his nihilism if she were around and I thought philosophically and in terms of characterisation, thematically Angel development really worked.

pernilleborup

11-19-2008, 09:54 AM

..............................no

Edmund Blackadder

11-19-2008, 02:09 PM

No offence guys but I actually hate the 'worst episodes better than 90% of other stuff' because I simply disagree and if you truly thught about it you would too.

Think about the episodes you consider bad then put them against other TV Shows you like.

eg - Doctor Who, Greys Anatomy, Stargate, Pushing Daisies, Smallville, Supernatural.

Thats just TV shows I like.

Add your reality TV (some people must like it!!) soap operas and what not.

VoodooGRL

11-19-2008, 03:10 PM

I didn't care much for season five because it became the Spike and Angel show, especially at the beginning. And I too missed seeing CC. But it is still a lot better than all of the new cult shows on tv today!:: vampire

PurplePoof

11-19-2008, 10:19 PM

Edmund Blackadder

11-19-2008, 10:29 PM

So why couldn't they have had the gang NOT take over Wolfram & Hart and keep Cordelia? Bad trade, if you ask me...

We actually needed to see Angel have the conflict of this season.

Fight the good fight and all that malarky BUT we needed to see what he would do if he was in the others shoes.

I hate Lindsey but would I do what he did?
Could I do what he did?

Watch his family deal with what they dealt with and not take the opportunity.

Its easy to paint everyone at W&H as evil because we know a) it represents evil and b) its Lawyers - yucky lawyers, but why would humans, who probably had a reasonable upbringings turn to this way of life, turn a blind eye.

We needed to have a different view of W&H.

Plus, we don't know that the price in reality (we know it was in the show) was Cordelia. Maybe she did want to leave to spend time with her child.

PurplePoof

11-19-2008, 10:34 PM

Edmund Blackadder

11-19-2008, 10:43 PM

You're probably right. But I suppose the outlook is different for those of us who only watched for Cordelia and never would've got into the show in any capacity without her. Oh wait, that's probably just me...

Carry on...

Yeah, don't get me wrong but I adored Cordelia, her character was brilliant BUT I don't mind losing her in the last season because we have had her as a permanent member since season 1 Buffy and as far as I know they didn't think season 5 was going to be the last season.

Now, I would be pissed IF Joss and co had known it was to be the last season AND they got rid of her (instead of leaving to be with child!)

LittleMissLikesToFight

11-20-2008, 03:27 PM

Ok i just finished season 5 for the first time ever, and i have to say, there are things i like about it. A little more humor in angel's character, and a much brighter set, which is so different because, you know, vampires... but it was refreshing. I immensely enjoyed Hamilton, seeing Lindsey return, some amazing acting from Amy (i really understand what people have said on these boards about her diversity esp between Fred and Illyria, it was amazing to see her back and forth on that), the dynamic between spike and Angel (though i do think the resurrection REALLY took away the intensity and emotion of his sacrifice in buffy)...

The last few episodes seemed rushed, and yes, i do realize it was cancelled so they probably have to wrap things up much quicker than they were planning. I was expecting a bit more of an epic feel for the last episode, it was a bit all over the place for me but still awesome.

And Fred's death might be one of the most heartbreaking moments in the buffy/angelverse. I was, or at least thought i was, indifferent to Fred for most of the show but damn that hit me hard.

Edmund Blackadder

11-20-2008, 03:53 PM

The last few episodes seemed rushed, and yes, i do realize it was cancelled so they probably have to wrap things up much quicker than they were planning. I was expecting a bit more of an epic feel for the last episode, it was a bit all over the place for me but still awesome.

Actually I think I read either here or on CoA when it was still a discussion board that the last few episodes weren't touched much and the ending is pretty much as it was meant to be.

Joss DID decide to Kill Wesley off when he was told that the show wouldn't be renewed but everything else is the same.

PurplePoof

11-20-2008, 09:36 PM

And Fred's death might be one of the most heartbreaking moments in the buffy/angelverse. I was, or at least thought i was, indifferent to Fred for most of the show but damn that hit me hard.
See, this is what's strange for me. I found Fred's death incredibly drawn out and very dull, and not even remotely moving. When she finally died I was like "THANK YOU!" Then again, I hated Fred and thought she was a waste of space who was only brought on the show because they needed more women if they were gonna have romances and love triangles.

I LAUGHED when Wesley died. I thought it was just absolutely ridiculous.