Faith In "Empty Places"

[white avenger]

We've argued this episode and its outcome several times, but always basically from Buffy's point of view. Faith's statement after Buffy revealed her plan to return to the vineyard, "...or how about...we DON'T" was the beginning of the whole confrontation.

Were Faith's actions right or wrong? Was she rebelling or simply voicing her doubts? Justify or condemn what Faith did and how she did it.

[Joyce Summers]

See at this point, I agreed. If everyone else (Read: Potentials) hadn't sort of 'egged' the whole situation on, there could have, in my opinion, been a reasonable discussion about their options.

So when Faith said this I kind of agreed. She wasn't challenging Buffy's authority, she was being worried for everyone. She even says that Buffy shouldn't have to go down there without knowing more. She was just voicing a well-supported concern. It just seemed to take a bad, nasty turn due to everyone else adding in their say.

Faith at that point was more concerned with keeping everyone alive to fight another day than going to get the power directly. She thought they should rest up and prepare, whilst Buffy was saying their wasn't time to waste.

So, no I didn't think Faith was rebelling- she was just voicing her (concerned) opinion. The others, in my opinion, turned it into a rebellion if ya get me?

[sosa lola]

I don't think Faith was being a bitch about it, she was trying to give her opinion on the subject. Sadly Buffy misunderstood her because of her old (justified) resentment toward Faith. And when Buffy disagreed immaturely, everybody started to act in an immature way (except in my opinion Faith, Willow and Dawn)

[Joyce Summers]

And when Buffy disagreed immaturely, everybody started to act in an immature way (except in my opinion Faith, Willow and Dawn)

That statement just made me think of something. We go on about how everyone behaved in this scene but we have to remember that with the exception of Giles and Wood (and technically Anya) this is a room full of children. Ranging from 16-22. 22 is an adult yes, but it's barely so; it's still extremely young and all this pressure, everything going on around them, I think they all couldn't help but lose their heads. However Giles, as resident adult, shouldn't have gone with the immature flow and should have brought some control back to situation.

Oops, gone off topic a little there. Haha. Carry on :D

[white avenger]

I think Faith was truly trying to be helpful, but she sort of blundered the whole situation. As the "other Slayer," she should have had some sort of authority (in fact said outside the Bronze, "I expect you to look out for these girls..." or something to that effect, which is a clear indication that she had every intention of sharing her authority, at least to some extent, with her sister Slayer. The only real leadership experience that faith had ever had was in the 3 episodes of Angel prior to returning to Sunnydale, and she had no problem whatsoever to letting Buffy bear the load of leader while she herself more or less played high ranking muscle.

Her mistake was in not, after Buffy announced her plans to return to the vineyard, asking Buffy to join her privately in the kitchen where they could work out an alternate plan, possibly involving a smaller force scouting out the situation before launching a full force assault. Unfortunately, her timing was bad and Giles, still stung by Buffy's choosing Spike's welfare over his own judgment, leaped at the opportunity to re-establish his influence. Xander, probably still doped up from his stay in the hospital, and Willow, hurt because Buffy hadn't stayed with her by Xander's side were no support whatsoever, and self proclaimed brat Kennedy only added fuel to the fire.

Buffy's mistake was in ever showing any weakness in the situation at all. "Look, I'm willing to discuss strategy..." should have been more like, "I'm the one in charge here, and if you don't like it, then haul your a**es out of here. We've got a war to fight, and if you don't want to help, then don't hinder." The biggets betrayal in the whole thing was her own sister. If Dawn had been at least slightly supportive, things might have been different, and the situation might have been contained. With no allies whatsoever Buffy saw only two options: stay and possibly have the situation degenerate into violence, or leave. What she SHOULD have done was to take a note from Travis at the Alamo. Draw a line and invite anyone willing to fight to the bitter end to join her and whoever didn't would be free to leave.

With Buffy leaving, Faith had no choice in the matter. She HAD to stay, since she was the one most taking Buffy's place and getting the job done. I find it both interesting and completely appropriate that Faith was the one who followed her outside and not any of her other friends. It was also significant that Buffy gave her advice rather than attacking her, either verbally or physically, and telling her not to be afraid to lead the others. Was that a warning for Faith, a reminder that she, now, was the only one capable of holding the group together?

Regardless of anything else, I think Faith did the only thing that she could do, once the whole thing started, and that was to fill the vacuum left by Buffy's leaving. (Besides, it gave Buffy and Spike a little private snuggle time before the big battle.)

[Hello Cutie]

I think that Faith was fully within her rights to express her opinion, which is what she did. The problem lies in expressing her opinion infront of 'the cannon fodder', which is a dangerous idea, as they clearly picked up a difference of opinion and turned it into a full scale mutiny against Buffy, appointing Faith as their leader, just because Faith disagreed with Buffy. Had the conversation been private, a happy compromise probably could have been met, and the potentials would have been none the wiser.

However, because it wasn't done in private, and the way people were giving their opinions (neither wanted nor needed... im referring to ppl like Kennedy) Buffy was forced to backtrack somewhat, which looked like she was giving ground through weakness... so its the whole "give you and inch and you take a yard" thing, where they then tried to take as much ground as they could, which ended up in forcibly removing her as leader and from her own house.

And i guess, in the long run it worked out for her... everyone got to experience Faith's 'act now, think later' type of action which ended in them going boom, and Buffy got a cool scythe, but at the time, it wasn't so much what was said, it was the situation that it was said in that caused the whole usurption.

[Buffy obsessed fan]

Faith had every right to say what she felt, and she was kinda right, the girls weren't even slayers then, just potentials, she was just stating that if they'd gone, more of them would have died, she was seeing things from the other perspective, probably stating what everyone in the room was thinking. I don't see that as a bad thing.

[LIENDINGES]

I think was just speaking her mind, like she always does. And no, not in a bad way. Back in season 3, Buffy was always in charge in my opinion. Back then Faith wanted to change planes and but then she was all about loosing control and just do it for the fun. In S7 i'm sure she was just trying to protect everyone including buffy. I think she was right when she wanted to wait untill they were going back in. When the others cut in, that was when it got nasty. Untill the end of the discusion I would have said that maybe Faith was trying to win Buffy's place. But after she went outside, after buffy. And after they had that confersation I'm pretty sure faith was just trying to help and be the mature one.

[Bangelxx]

I agreed with faith pretty much this whole episode. Buffy thought she was in charge all the time but she never took into consideration what the others thought. faith had every right to do what she did. i thought it was good that the girls got a break. Buffy was just being too hard on them. It serves her right really.