Haven't you grown a bit tired of W&H?

[Entiel]

Maybe some will disagree but after 5 seasons with W&H plus now in ATF I think I 'm getting tired by those incorporeal all mighty big bads...I mean in the hole series Angel is trying to figure out their plans,he messes with him,they never kill him because of the prophecy and it goes on and on...GIVE US SOME CORPOREAL BADASS like you always did with Buffy..the Senior Partners are not intriguing any more...I mean really at least they could give us some info about them..how many are they can Angel ever kill them etc..I'd grown tired after all these seasons but after Not Fade Away I hoped that finally there were no more masks in the game and the war Angel vs W&H had started..but instead when I finished the first issue I got really disappointed by Angel's last phrase cause it was the start of the same old tune...In Buffy I always loved the fact that each season had it's big bad..it made it more interesting..I respect the fact that they are creating Angel with a different approach but I because I love AtS I believe that what is missing fro the show is a worthy opponent...

[Edmund Blackadder]

Haven't you grown a bit tired of W&H?

No

[goldenboy]

It's hard to tell where After the Fall is ultimately going. Maybe we'll actually learn more about W&H. But these "lords" we've got now, in the hell dimension...they're just slobbering monsters. Like gangsters fighting over turf. Not terribly compelling yet.

[Clem Rocks]

I like the fact that it's all about the Senior Partners and the fact that you never see them, gives things a nice bit of mystery =]

[thegifting]

I would seriously shoot myself for liking a series like Buffy, where it's just one problem that can be punched away after another. Shit's seriously as whack as it gets.

Wolfram & Hart is amazing. Like other great evil empires in modern fiction (Hanso Foundation/Dharma Initiative, Umbrella Corp., Shinra Electric, etc.) it can't be taken down. Like Holland Manners said, W&H is eternal because they're not concerned with "anything as prosaic as 'winning'", and I love that because it's like life- it just "go(es) on". Also, if you want to be technical, Angel has killed a Senior Partner (possibly two), and killed all their instruments on Earth- is that corporeal enough a struggle for you?

LOL@ A.D.D. kids who are unapologetic for having no attention span

[Allycat]

Even though W&H has always had a menacing presence as a malignant force in Angel, it's not as if Angel didn't have villains beside them. Many of them filled a similar role to that of a Big Bad on Buffy, although in Angel the rules governing the Season's major nemesis weren't as strict. Moreover, whenever W&H did fill up the role of Big Bad, there was always some kind of agent who was more of a physical adversary for Angel or who could as give a face to W&H.



Season 1: W&H obviously filled the role of Big Bad. With Lindsey as their principal representative, it wasn't like W&H didn't have a face. It is true that during this season, the physical threat they offered wasn't centred in just one person.
Season 2: I daresay that in this season, although their presence was large. The real threat came from Darla & Drusilla. And it was really Darla who served as a Big Bad, until they decided to go for the Pylea-arc for the final number of episodes.
Season 3: W&H were still there, but their presence was greatly diminished and a lot less stories were about them. Instead Holtz and his gang rise up as the main adversaries. Plus later there's Connor of course. I guess you could say Holtz sort of was the Big Bad for this season. Although in the end, Connor was the real physical threat.
Season 4: Disliked by many, if not most, this is really the season without W&H even there to spell doom. This is also the one season, that you can clearly say of who the Big Bad was: Jasmine.
Season 5: The Big Bad is back to W&H again. But this time, they bring in a real physical agent in the form of Hamilton. He is introduced kind of late, but he still is sort of the Big Bad. Plus, there's the Circle of the Black Thorne, who prove that the power-structure of W&H offers up plenty of fighting opportunities.
After the Fall: W&H is still a presence here, but they're not the real problem Angel and his have to deal with. I suspect that Gunn will become the real Big Bad of this "season".


All-in-all, I think that W&H are still interesting as foes. But only so long as they're used in moderation and in combination with some kind of other villain; either on their side, or against them. Angel does need someone who he can point at and say, 'I'm going to pummel you in the Season Finale.' But that doesn't mean that there can't be unseen forces as play too. Whether that's the PTB or the SP (or even the FE), they make everything that happens part of a larger whole and that can make a story more interesting.

I have to acknowledge the downside of it too though, which is that the struggle moves very slowly. On Buffy, there's always a big threat averted, but on Angel, the SP are always plotting their next move, so the trouble's never really over. But I guess that's one of the core difference in attitude between the two series.

[white avenger]

Actually, they're the perfect Big Bad. Anything, absolutely ANYTHING evil, mysterious, dark, frightening...anything that the writers want to do can be blamed on the Wolf, Ram, and Hart and it seems perfectly logical. It's just like SPECTRE in the old James Bond movies. They represent the ultimate evil. Any obscure convoluted plan for anything from jury tampering to world domination can be laid at their doorstep, and it works perfectly. They can even do good deeds, and you just KNOW that there's some hidden plan in operation. If the writers want to have a menace for Angel and his crew to fight and they don't feel like coming up with a new Big Bad, just blame it all on the evil law firm. They're the perfect opponent for good, simply because they need no reason for doing evil other than the fact that they ARE evil, and they're always available for whatever mayhem required of them.

[RockManic]

I grew tired of W&H around season three, simply because I was ready for Angel to have something else to worry about instead of evil guys in suits, and so it was kinda cool to see the Beast kick their collective asses in early season four.

That said, after seeing how the show played out in season five it became clear to me that they were kinda the whole reason for Angel's time in LA, going from behind the scenes bad guys in season one to Angel's employers in season five. The arc they provided for the show and the character was essential to the show, I believe.

[TabulaRasa]

I have to say no. I really like W R and H.

[UlaGan]

Well, I'm generally 'ok' with the idea of these "Senior Partners", but there's one little thing's bugging me - the whole resemblance to Charmed world.
Yet, I won't take that "final tiny step where conclusions are". Not now.

[RockManic]

Well, I'm generally 'ok' with the idea of these "Senior Partners", but there's one little thing's bugging me - the whole resemblance to Charmed world.
Yet, I won't take that "final tiny step where conclusions are". Not now.

I saw less than three seasons of Charmed before my taste gene kicked in and made me stop watching and truthfully I don't remember much about them except that Shannon Doherty was very cute but I'm assuming that the show had some demonic overlord type bad guys too? Similar to what the SPs were in Angel?

To be honest I don't think the concept was unique to either series. The basic idea of some all powerful major demonic baddies behind the scenes has been used in fiction for as long as it's been around do both Angel and Charmed simply used their own version of the same old thing.

Angel just did it better... ;)

[Senior Watcher]

i am quite tired of the idea of wolfram and hart. here is a quick list why as well as some things the writers should have done if they wanted me to still like w&h.
1. let me see one. "partners" is plural, so there are more than one. gimme one i can see and let angel kill it. that way ill at least feel there is a chance to bring them down even though the road ahead will be a long one.
2. gimme some background. when did they form? how many are there?
3. im not sure i believe the word "partners." i find it hard to believe that a group of evil beings are playing SO nice together that they call themselves partners. what i mean is there must be a leader; one to make decisions and keep the other "partners" in line.

[littlewilly]

W & H were good for the first 2 seasons, with Lindsey, lee and Holland, but it did drag out too long.
If you consider the power they have, they should have been able to kill Angel, wouldnt have been That hard either.
And why exactly was he that important to their apocalypse?
They always says they didnt kill him because they didnt know which side he would take, but why did they care?
What, is Angel superman or something. i dont see why W&H would consider him that important to their plans that they would risk not just killing him.

[Bangelxx]

I agree with you 100%

Wolfram and Hart bore me to death. seriously! they were so overused.

[thegifting]

You people seriously need to rewatch Angel as a series and take into account that there are countless conversations that explain the Senior Partners. First of all, Angel has killed one, possibly two. Hamilton said "I am a Wolf, Ram, and Hart.", so I leave that open. And I think it was clear that "they're not there to be beaten- they're there to be fought."

Second, pick up a book and read Don Quixote. Hell.

[littlewilly]

So, whats your point?

[thegifting]

That life's windmills never stop grinding, and if you're looking for a less realistic, less mature story, then jump over to the Buffy discussions, but like them or not, they're not going away, and they CAN be killed.

You know, the stuff this thread is about.

[littlewilly]

^ Its just that you said 'you people' on the last post. I thought you were maybe meaning me too.
Your post didnt have any relavence to mine.

[Superstar]

I like the fact that it's all about the Senior Partners and the fact that you never see them, gives things a nice bit of mystery.
My interest lies in the rather unique name chosen.
3 separate beasts combined: a chimera of sorts.

Wolf: mythological significance: represents duality of nature.
Ram: mythological significance; represents rebirth and renewal.
Hart: no major mythological significance.
However, "Heart" has the mythological significance of the human soul.

Fun Speculation:
What I find interesting, is that these 3 aspects tie into the Angel series and its heroes.
Creepily enough, they represent a vampire extremely well.
Wolf/the predator who has a duality of nature, Ram/the death of humanity and rebirth into a vampire, Heart/the human soul or lack thereof (also ummm blood).

So, the "Home Office" is Earth. But the Wolf, Ram and Hart have been around for eons.
Wouldn't it be a complete mind-screw if the Senior Partners were actually Angel & co shifted back to the beginning of time and they have been battling themselves without knowing it? A time paradox.
Angel/ the lone Wolf
Spike/ the belligerent Ram
Illyria(Fred)/ the lost soul and Heart

All 3 have a duality of nature; i.e. physical change manifestation (aside from being at one time evil and good), have died and been reborn and have a soul - waging war within itself against another demon.

Just random thoughts on the wild side.

[andrewcutter]

I would seriously shoot myself for liking a series like Buffy, where it's just one problem that can be punched away after another. Shit's seriously as whack as it gets.

Wolfram & Hart is amazing. Like other great evil empires in modern fiction (Hanso Foundation/Dharma Initiative, Umbrella Corp., Shinra Electric, etc.) it can't be taken down. Like Holland Manners said, W&H is eternal because they're not concerned with "anything as prosaic as 'winning'", and I love that because it's like life- it just "go(es) on". Also, if you want to be technical, Angel has killed a Senior Partner (possibly two), and killed all their instruments on Earth- is that corporeal enough a struggle for you?

LOL@ A.D.D. kids who are unapologetic for having no attention span

I agree 100% W&H can never be killed its there till the end. but i like W&H i think they are awesome big bads. IN buffy she had a big bad every season which was cool dont get me wrong however i like the idea W&H are always the big bads and the big bads angel fight useally are a product of W&H or some how brought on by them.

the thing like like alot about them is where buffy may have fought the first evil........... angel is always fighting the greatest most powerful evil.

[littlewilly]

I loved W & H at first, the employees were great, and over the first couple of years they done a good job of slowly building up the storyline of exactly how big W &H is, but in the end, it didnt deliver. After the 3rd season the story had just kinda fizzled out and dragged on.
And s5, with AI working at W& H, that just made me sad

[Mesektet Ra]

That life's windmills never stop grinding, and if you're looking for a less realistic, less mature story, then jump over to the Buffy discussions, but like them or not, they're not going away, and they CAN be killed.

You know, the stuff this thread is about.

Okay, we get it - you don't like Buffy. That's awesome. Good for you. But check yourself - you're on a Buffy forum too.

And, for the record, everyone's entitled to their opinion. You like W&H? Sweet. Awesome. Some people don't. Deal with it. That's life.

[littlewilly]

and if you're looking for a less realistic, less mature story, then jump over to the Buffy discussions

Mate, Illyria and Gwen are as immature and Unrealistic as it gets.
So, you tell me how Ats is more mature and realistic than Btvs and i'll explain to you why your wrong!

[Randy Giles]

I'm definitely not tired of Wolfram & Hart. Best Big Bad ever. I find them immensely cool (as bad guys go) and intriguing.

[scobro]

can Angel ever kill them etc..
He did kill one.. in (I believe Epiphany) before he went to the home office. He needed the glove of whosmacallit to kill him/it for to get the ring of whatsmadigger so he could take that long elevator ride that went nowhere.

[hannahfngrl26]

So I have always found the idea of WRH very intersting. They dynamic they play through out the seasons was always changing but they were still always EVIL. I like how they affected the series but also how the team reacted to them. I think they helped for some very creative story writing and it still continues on in the comics.

[VBG]

Wolfram & Hart is long gone. We can thanks Gunn for that.
Now all that remain are the Senior Partners. I should hope will see more of them this season.

[Allycat]

Gunn may have destroyed their LA Office building, but he didn't destroy the entire organisation.

[Chase Summers]

Personally, I much prefer W&H over the likes of Holtz. That dude got booooring for me, and now whenever I watch season 3 I speed through what I consider his nonessiential scenes. I even remember thinking how bored I was of him by the middle of the premiere episode of year 3, and grew very frustrated when Cordelia enthusiastically wanted to hear more about Holtz. Human vengeance is so petty, single minded, and mundane. At least there's fun in speculation of the whys and hows of W&H.