Sire who?

[NightBird]

Ok so in 'School hard', when Angel is bluffing to Spike, Spike figures out that Angel is bluffing and says, 'you where my sire man' or something to that effect.

I always thought that Dru sired William/Spike?

I'm in the middle of season two and will of course be watching all the ep's again, but its bothering me now, lol.

So can you guys shed any light on this?

Is my memory messed up it has been about 4 months since i watched all eps so my memory could be a bit fuzzy, or is it something the writers overlooked?

[Joyce Summers]

Spike refers to Angel as his sire more than once I believe, though Dru is in fact definitely his sire. However it was explained somewhere that Angel is his Grandsire and so could be considered his sire also as without Angel siring Dru, Drusilla would not have sired Spike.

I mean Dru always calls Darla Grandmummy because of this.

But Spike caling Angel 'sire' not Grandsire I always thought was a reflection of how Angelus did guide him. He was his yoda. Drusilla made him what he was, sired him literally, but it was Angelus in his role as Grandsire that taught him a lot about killing, maiming, torture, destruction. All those nice family viewing things.

[NightBird]

I see what you mean, i suppose spike could have meant it that way, silly me, i didn't think of that way.

I love the way Dru talks to her 'family', and I really enjoy the flashbacks.

[Joyce Summers]

Yes, I think Drusilla is the only who considers them all a literal family. Especially in the way she calsl Darla Grandmummy (Though Darla repeatedly tells her not to).

Gets very Family Affairs though when Dru re-sires Darla. Because that means Darla is her Grandmother, but Dru is her Mother, making Dru her Father's (Angel) Grandmother and Spike's Great-Grandmother. Add in all the sex and this is more twisted than your average vampire family.

[palabravampiress]

I love the twistiness.

[Hello Cutie]

I was going to say what Joyce Summers said, so instead I'm reiterating it.

I actually read an interview with Joss Whedon somewhere (no idea where or when- i think it was an extract in a book on the psychology behind Buffy and Angel, referring to the concept of 'family') and he said that Spike calls Angel his sire in relation to the way he guided Spike and Spike looked up to him etc, more than the literal turning. I mean, Dru's gotta be a bit of a rubbish teacher in the 'how to be a vampire' stakes, considering she's mostly mad... so it was left to Angel to do it, within their 'family', as it was as though Angelus was the father, teaching his son (Spike) to become everything he should and could be.

[Kana]

Joss said that sire can refer to familial line not just the immediate sire but I think he said to cover up his fluff.

[Scythus]

I was going to say what Joyce Summers said, so instead I'm reiterating it.

I actually read an interview with Joss Whedon somewhere (no idea where or when- i think it was an extract in a book on the psychology behind Buffy and Angel, referring to the concept of 'family') and he said that Spike calls Angel his sire in relation to the way he guided Spike and Spike looked up to him etc, more than the literal turning. I mean, Dru's gotta be a bit of a rubbish teacher in the 'how to be a vampire' stakes, considering she's mostly mad... so it was left to Angel to do it, within their 'family', as it was as though Angelus was the father, teaching his son (Spike) to become everything he should and could be.

plus in season 5 of Angel theres an episode whose title i cant remember where Angel and Spike end up fighting each other to drink out of a chalice type thing (whoever drinks from it would be the object of the shanshu prophecy) and Spike actually says something along the lines of 'Drusilla sired me, but you turned me into a monster'

[TheHeartist]

plus in season 5 of Angel theres an episode whose title i cant remember where Angel and Spike end up fighting each other to drink out of a chalice type thing (whoever drinks from it would be the object of the shanshu prophecy) and Spike actually says something along the lines of 'Drusilla sired me, but you turned me into a monster'

That whole episode is a literal passing of the chalice. Spike starts on his way down the same path Angel began in Season One, and the similarities have purposely been put on display by Joss.

Going back to the original question, yes, Angel was more of a sire to Spike than Drusilla ever was. Considering you would see your sire as a superior of sorts (something Spike hated with Angel) Spike is the one calling the shots between himself and Drusilla. So yeah, the fact that I hadn't even thought about this until you bought it up kinda goes to proves that we as an audience already make that connection, which I believe was Joss' intention, rather than any writing fluff.

[ILLYRIAN]

There are several ways of answering this.
1/
Spike had gone to long without blood and wasn't thinking straight.
2/
As Angel often said, ' Oh your brain works, that's a surprise '. It was Spike way of agreeing with Angel.
3/
As Spike said he isn't a great thinker, his blood tends not to go to his brain. It goes the other way ( can't imagine why it would go to his feet though ).
4/
As Spike the character thought he was a real vampire, he was waiting for some-one to be brave enough to tell him to his face that he's wrong.

[littlewilly]

Joss said that sire can refer to familial line not just the immediate sire but I think he said to cover up his fluff.

I agree with Kana. Joss originally intended for Angel to be Spikes sire.
Not only did Spike say to Angel 'you were my sire man, my yoda'
but in the same episode(school hard) the following conversation took place...

Xander: ''whats a sire''
Angel: ''the vampire that made him''
Xander: ''man, you got alot of neck in your day''

So Joss basically just changed his mind. Did you know that Spike was only supposed to be in that 1 episode? Then they were going to kill him off in Whats My Line pt2. But being so popular they kept him on. Thats when Joss decided Drusilla would be a better sire.:santa2:

[Jules]

I never knew that. I think it works out better Dru being Spike's sire but it would have been good to see what storyline Joss would have come up with for Angelus making Spike. That would have been interesting to watch!!

[Lindsey McDonald]

I never knew that. I think it works out better Dru being Spike's sire but it would have been good to see what storyline Joss would have come up with for Angelus making Spike. That would have been interesting to watch!!

I can't really see that happening somehow. The great Angelus siring William the Bloody Awful? Darla would have left him in an instant!

[scobro]

But Spike caling Angel 'sire' not Grandsire I always thought was a reflection of how Angelus did guide him. He was his yoda. Drusilla made him what he was, sired him literally, but it was Angelus in his role as Grandsire that taught him a lot about killing, maiming, torture, destruction. All those nice family viewing things.

I never thought of that.. I still think the writers made a mistake.. like in season seven when Wood and Buffy are on a date and Spike comes to fetch her. Wood is driving them both in his car, looks in the rearview mirror disguestedly at Spike. It was in the following episode that Wood realized Spike was a vampire... I would have thought casting no reflection would have been a dead giveaway.

[littlewilly]

^^It wasnt a mistake, just that they changed their mind. It was Angel, then they changed it to Drusilla, and used the 'grand sire' thing to cover their tracks.