Angel, not Angelus

[Scythus]

Wasn't sure where to post this so i put it here with my idea being about the gypsy curse.
I dont think the curse is actually punishing Angelus as it was meant to, other than caging him inside Angel, putting a soul inside him just turned him back into the man he was with memories of what Angelus did therefore punishing Angel instead of Angelus as he blames himself for the things Angelus did though he is NOT Angelus. Sure Angelus has to sit back and watch as Angel saves countless innocent people which has got to be hell for him but the gypsies didn't know that was going to happen, they put a soul inside him to make Angelus suffer for the things he did, to make him regret and feel guilty about them but instead they ended up punishing an innocent man by not being able to make the distinction between the man and the (souless, therefore unable to feel sorry for his actions) monster. If it was ever hazy as to whether Angel and Angelus are the same or separate beings season 4 of Angel sorted it out, i think the episode is called Orpheus where Faith and Angelus are reliving Angels life after the curse, Angel and Angelus fight each other so they must be separate beings. anyone agree with me here?

[Joyce Summers]

That is something I've always wondered.

I mean the way Angelus is always screaming in Angel's head 'JUST KILL THE GAL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!' suggests that the demon never feels the guilt and pain that the Kalderash wanted him to feel. He just got pushed down, suppressed by the morality of Liam's soul.

Angel is the one whose punished. He's the one who has to deal with what Angelus commited and he's the one who feels the pain of those he slaughtered, hears the cries of the children he killed and tortured...all of it, Angel feels. But Angelus doesn't care one bit. He's basically going 'they were good times. Let's go back to that. It's way more fun'.

So no, I don't think the curse punishes the right person. I mean sure it drives Angelus insane with all the life-saving Angel does, but Angel's punishment is much worse and in my opinion Angel never did anything wrong.

If you consider them as twin brothers in a mortal world where they are entirely seperate beings, it is as though Angelus commited a crime and when the matter came to court his brother Angel was the one who was sent to prison.

[Kana]

I think I posted something somewhere else but this is really the question. I've done thing like a million times so for all those who know it forgive me, but for those who don't, sit tight.


The issue with Angel is that it depends really on the nature of the soul.

Theory 1

When a person is turned into a vampire then they lose their soul which is essentially who they are. A demon takes their body and their memories but it isn't them. This would make Angelus the demon and Liam the soul. When Angelus was ensoulled, then Liam was brought back into Angelus' vamped body and somehow remembered his deeds as if he did them.

Implications of punishment?

Angelus suffers as he fully aware but unable to move or act but somehow this doesn't seem to be what the gypsies are after. When the refer to Angel they would be referring to the soul, Liam. but as you said, Liam is innocent of such crimes...

Theory 2

This is actually misleading because the original story implies Angelus and Angel are seperate but in theory 2 they are not. Liam, Angelus and Angel are more like 'states' of the same person. Angelus is Liam with a demonic bloodlust but without a conscience and Angel is Liam with a demonic bloodlust and a conscience but of course he's changed over time.

Implications of punishment?

Well this makes more sense. Make a vicious monster like Angelus care.

Season 4?

Well Fred says that Angelus' mind wasn't there when the Jasminespell was cast, i.e. the spell that erases of traces of the Beast's bio. This is contradictory to what Angelus and Jasmine herself say: that Angelus is always 'deep in'. It's possible that under theory 1 Angel managed to supress Angelus so deeply that the spell couldn't reach it or under theory 2, Angel has MPD and his Angelus persona remembers things he doesn't. More than likely Jasmine fixed the whole thing and probably 'placed' the memory in there as the spell to take his soul away was happening or supressed than 'woke up' the memory at the right time.

Orpheus

This is a funny one because when Angel and Angelus are fighting, technically it's just Angelus. When Angel first starts interacting, the soul is still in the jar and then it's in the ether.

It could be a construct of Angelus' hell: Angel helping Faith. Although the 'rules' had changed, they were not defined in the first place.

Or maybe it's all part of Liam's psyche coming out. Normally they seperate or he seperates them (most likely unconsciously) but in this hell he acts out the internal conflicts he feels whether he's soulled or not. Doug Sanders called it the 'voice of your inner human'. Normally Angelus has a handle on this but not in this hell.

[Scythus]

Theory 2

This is actually misleading because the original story implies Angelus and Angel are seperate but in theory 2 they are not. Liam, Angelus and Angel are more like 'states' of the same person. Angelus is Liam with a demonic bloodlust but without a conscience and Angel is Liam with a demonic bloodlust and a conscience but of course he's changed over time.

Implications of punishment?

Well this makes more sense. Make a vicious monster like Angelus care.
If this theory is correct they still end up punishing the wrong person as all they did was create two beings. Putting a soul/conscience in him makes him a different person to the one they are trying to punish, and that person still exists at the same time as the one with a soul, making him two different people. the one without a conscience (the one they are trying to punish) isn't going to care about what he's done so all the gypsies did was create a new person with an old soul and made him suffer instead

[Kana]

If this theory is correct they still end up punishing the wrong person as all they did was create two beings. Putting a soul/conscience in him makes him a different person to the one they are trying to punish, and that person still exists at the same time as the one with a soul, making him two different people. the one without a conscience (the one they are trying to punish) isn't going to care about what he's done so all the gypsies did was create a new person with an old soul and made him suffer instead

Well it depends what you mean by different person. Qualitively, of course Angel is different from Angelus, but according to theory 2, he is quantitively the same person. Under this theory, basically Angel is Angelus but now he can feel guilt for what he did, it's the best way they could make Angelus suffer. Holtz takes the extreme view that Angel is the just what Angelus likes to call himself but he is Angelus but with a soul. It's still relatively unprincipled vengeance because it doesn't have purpose for the greater picture (as Jenny says).

Under this theory, Angel has compartmentalised his darker urges and postive desires into the personas of Angelus and Angel, surpressing them to deal with the horror of what he's done. He may not be doing it consciously but there it is. It would also explain why Spike is pretty much the same persona soul or no soul.

[palabravampiress]

I don't think Angel would say that he and Angelus are separate people. Angel feels more than mere guilt for the evil that he carried out under the Angelus alias. He also feels an attachment to Darla, Dru, and Spike. He feels a responsibility to atone by attempting to make the here and now better. He even displays some of Angelus' strengths and weaknesses. For instance, in either guise, he has that alpha male complex about which I am always complaining. In many ways, his experiences and actions as Angelus guide and influence his choices and feelings as Angel. I think the Angelus/Angel distinction is, for Angel, a coping mechanism. I think it provides the minimum separation required for Angel to function. I think that without that separation... if Angel had to bear the brunt of his guilt every moment of every day forever... he would be unable to function and fight for good.

Angel learned from his experiences as Angelus. He learned the art of battle. He learned the art of psychological warfare. He learned what makes people -- good and bad -- tick. He learned about his own limits. He learned about loyalty (or lack thereof). Angel carries that with him every day. He uses it every day. It's part of what makes him the champion that he is. Most importantly, his past as Angelus gives his defection to the good side a lot more meaning.

I don't know if I think the gypsy curse was successful in accomplishing its goal of punishment. I do know that I think it goes a long way toward making Angel the champion that he is, though.

[Spuffy is true love]

this is from Becoming pt 1

Gypsy Man: You don't remember... everything you've done for a hundred
years. In a moment, you will. The face of everyone you killed... our
daughter's face... they will haunt you, and you will know what true
suffering is.

The part "you will know what true suffering is" is the key part.

Background: Liam, even before becoming a vamp, was not the most pleasant person to be around. He hurt young women by having sex with them and then tossing them. He was completely disrespectful to his father and so on and so forth. Darla then came along and formed Angelus: Angelus=Liam + Demon - Soul. When becoming a vampire the demon takes the place of your soul, but still has all your memories, feelings, etc. I think that when Angelus went and killed his entire family that was Liam killing his family, but through the demon he now had the power and the lack of consciounse to do it. Angelus then went on to kill many many more people. When the gypsy curse was placed on him they never specifically said Angelus, they just said "him". This I believe can either signify the man or the demon. The man i'm sure had memories of the women he hurt, and the demon of the people he killed.

Angel= Liam + Demon + Soul

When Angel comes it is because of the soul. The Soul therefore pushes Angelus down into Angel where he cannot be unleashed. This I believe is complete and total punishment for Angelus. Not being able to run rampant through the villages killing whomever he chooses and forced to do good. That is torture for Angelus.
Liam went willingly. He did not fight with Darla, he welcomed it. This therefore shows how Angel pays for his sins. He remembers everyone and realizes that this is what he wanted, his soul realizes that this is what he wanted and that is how Angel pay for what he did.

I think that the punishment is correct, it got rid of Angelus which is torturous to Angelus and it may Angel remember all the terrible things that he did which is torturous to Angel and motivates him to do good.

[Xin Rong]

Wasn't sure where to post this so i put it here with my idea being about the gypsy curse.
I dont think the curse is actually punishing Angelus as it was meant to, other than caging him inside Angel, putting a soul inside him just turned him back into the man he was with memories of what Angelus did therefore punishing Angel instead of Angelus as he blames himself for the things Angelus did though he is NOT Angelus. Sure Angelus has to sit back and watch as Angel saves countless innocent people which has got to be hell for him but the gypsies didn't know that was going to happen, they put a soul inside him to make Angelus suffer for the things he did, to make him regret and feel guilty about them but instead they ended up punishing an innocent man by not being able to make the distinction between the man and the (souless, therefore unable to feel sorry for his actions) monster. If it was ever hazy as to whether Angel and Angelus are the same or separate beings season 4 of Angel sorted it out, i think the episode is called Orpheus where Faith and Angelus are reliving Angels life after the curse, Angel and Angelus fight each other so they must be separate beings. anyone agree with me here?

In my mind orpheus made the distinction even more blurry, because we see that they are one and the same, well according to angelus and the sort of merge thing they did towards the end. I always thought it was like an ID and superego thing like in psychology. One good side, one bad and the presence of the soul acts like a mediator. Ok that might make sense to everyone else but it does to me lol

[hidden]

angelus is just the demon
angel is the human liam that was there before

in my opinion the gypsies didn't care about the difference because they saw them as the same

[Joyce Summers]

angel is the human liam that was there before

I really don't think that's true. It's not as simple as that, but on a basic level they don't appear to be the same person. Angel acts VERY differently from how Liam was. If Angel was the same as Liam, he would have pursued Buffy from the beginning and just forced himself upon her if she refused. He would be selfish and...a total wretch really. Circumstance and experience have changed him. Liam doesn't exist anymore.
Revising what I've previously posted on this thread I think the demon plus the soul of Liam creates an entirely different person- Angel- as Liam is effected by the guilt of the soul and changed by the presence of the demon if you get me.

[palabravampiress]

I think there's something deeply psychological about Angel's fractured personality.

I think there's an id, ego, superego thing going on there. The id, which functions out of the pleasure principle, is Angelus. The id is focused on fulfilling basic needs and desires: like eating and mating. It is aggressive. It doesn't understand the word "no." The ego is the middle ground. It maintains a balance between the primitive, aggressive side and the logical, peaceful side. This is Liam. Liam was your sort of average lout of a man. He was ruled more by the id than by the superego, but as a human, he still held the capacity for both extremes and he still walked a line that was roughly middle-of-the-road, especially considering his society and his time period. Then, the ego is the conscience. It is what makes men behave in moral, logical, noble ways. This is Angel, the champion. Liam is long forgotten, so Angel and Angelus constantly war for control -- with no mediator in between. I think that part of the promise of the Shanshu is the reintegration of the ego... and the restoration of Angel's fractured psyche.

[Joyce Summers]

In reply, can I just say 'yes, I agree'? Haha. I've always considered there to be a definite Id battle within in Angel but you've totally disected the theory here. Effectively so. And I liked the point about Liam playing the part of the middle ground; that's something I hadn't really considered before.

[Kana]

I really don't think that's true. It's not as simple as that, but on a basic level they don't appear to be the same person. Angel acts VERY differently from how Liam was.

As I always say, I accept both theories on what the soul is. Under theory 1 (see above) Liam would remember everything Angelus did, those memories would affect his personality. Add 100 odd years after that and you have Angel. Of course there is no need to explain theory 2.

If Angel was the same as Liam, he would have pursued Buffy from the beginning and just forced himself upon her if she refused. He would be selfish and...a total wretch really. Circumstance and experience have changed him. Liam doesn't exist anymore.

I think that's what hidden may have meant although I'm not sure. We are all subject to our experiences and more profound experiences would have a more profound effect. Metaphysically speaking, under the first theory Liam is quantitive individual that Angel is. In other words, he's not a different person but one person who has changed (think Watcher Wes and DarkWes). In fact theory 2 is another example of that because Liam/Angelus/Angel are all the same person but with different experiences, inner impulses etc.

Revising what I've previously posted on this thread I think the demon plus the soul of Liam creates an entirely different person- Angel- as Liam is effected by the guilt of the soul and changed by the presence of the demon if you get me.


I think this is essentially theory 1.

I think there's something deeply psychological about Angel's fractured personality.

I definitely agree. That's what I tried to say earlier. I don't think Angel consciously does it but you have to admit he's a little spotty. One minute he says I did this, then he says Angelus did this, it wasn't me, as if it is a seperate entity.

I think there's an id, ego, superego thing going on there. The id, which functions out of the pleasure principle, is Angelus. The id is focused on fulfilling basic needs and desires: like eating and mating. It is aggressive. It doesn't understand the word "no." The ego is the middle ground. It maintains a balance between the primitive, aggressive side and the logical, peaceful side.

This is Liam. Liam was your sort of average lout of a man. He was ruled more by the id than by the superego, but as a human, he still held the capacity for both extremes and he still walked a line that was roughly middle-of-the-road, especially considering his society and his time period.

I understand the representation but I see Liam as lot more complex. He was never unconsciously ruled by his id, he deliberately sought that path due his conflict of desire of approval and the apparently reality of never attaining it. Liam consciously either resisted temptation or succumbed to it, but it was rarely primal, it was thought out. Liam without the demon and with a conscience wasn't malicious as you say but the drives of the Angelus were less primal as they were a conscious effort to seek some of sort of granduer. The same granduer Liam would feel from alcohol and the pursuing women. Aside from affronting his father, it served to give him a false sense of power, this power fed into Angelus' sadism, the power the torture gives him over his victims. This need came from the powerlessness his father made him feel. The sort of feelings inferiority that meant he wouldn't "make something of himself" even if he always wanted to "see the world". Liam's conscience/Superego is what stopped him from showing his proprensity for darkness. In my eyes Liam never started off, in the middle, it was the constant war of drives that war inside him, seeking purity which he did in sorts as Angelus (Blind Date). As Angel he seeks the purity he always sought but it too a long time for him to get there. Angel's ascension like Liam's decline was gradual and subject to outside forces (mediated by the ego if you will)

Going back to the model. I think Theory 2 works quite well under Freud's model. The Ego would be Liam's base personality and consciousness, the 'meness' if you will. The Id would be represented as the demonic drive (Like something we see in Pylea) and the SuperEgo is the soul as conscience. Of course this doesn't work totally because Angel would also have 'human id' to contend with as well but it's more of a representation than a true analysis of his character.


Essentially if we were to look at Angel's plight more closely, his psyche may be more akin to Disassociative Personality Disorder. Of course Angel does remember what he did as Angelus but he identifies the identities as almost opposites even if in reality the personas have too much in common not to be associated. So it strives to reconcile or purify which would explain his redemption. Even if Angel were to be a theory 1 supporter her cannot hide from the fact Angelus is manifested from Liam's pyche anyway. By purifying his base personality he can attain freedom, or at least that's the plan. Angel often does not want to seek ownership of the demon whatever it's nature, whether it's the thing we see in Pylea or Angelus' the purveyor of cruelty.

Also what is problematic is Angel's tendency from idealism to nihilism. His high as Liam was most likely early, but his father most likely destroyed that. He sought to be something more than himself (to "Become someone") but it was laughable dream, he lost hope in a way wanted to lose his soul, in booze and women. This in my eyes isn't what Liam truly wants, but he wants that savlation so he seeks to become what he believed is meant for him.

He though Darla was his salvation, someone, 'exciting and interesting'. As Angelus he attained purity... of evil but as Angel he was back to self-loathing again (virtually nihilistic), then he found Buffy. Another high, for a while. After the whole Darla incident? Low nihilisticAngel again. Then we have Epiphany and then we have most of Season 5. I also like in Season 5 how Spike is in the middle but Angel goes from nihilistic to more hopeful. He's more positive than Spike in Damage and doesn't believe Fred's gone either and when he believes she is, he strives to give it meaning.

In short, the fragmentation doesn't just lie on the Angel/Angelus line but it's part of Liam's personality. It doesn't just happen in waves, it pulls him in either direction at the same time. Heroism/sadism, idealism/nihilism, greatness/worthlessness, feeling accomplished/feeling the failure, love and compassion/self-loathing rage. It's not just primal and consciousness, it's a war within the consciousness, itself, a conflict of beliefs, expectations etc.

Randomy, I know but there it is.

[xgirlanachronism245x]

Angel's soul... boy it confuses me.

I mean, I don't think the gypsies thought that one through.
I think it was more out of anger or sadness that the curse even exists.

They weren't punishing Angelus. He was just muzzled, if you will, and pushed deep down into the recesses of Liam's mind. I think the gypsies did more harm than good because they forced the already identity challenged Liam/Angelus hybrid to come up with another personality to balance the two extremes out. Out pops Angel, part demon with all of Angelus' memories and some of his habits and part man with all of Liam's memories and some of his habits.

Maybe I'm not making sense so I'll clarify.

Darla killed Liam and turned the soul-less shell of him into Angelus.
Angelus was cursed when he ate the wrong girl, bringing back Liam's soul.
Unable to be either truly Liam (alive and well) or truly Angelus (undead and evil), Angel was born (undead and not evil).
So in effect, Angel, in my opinion, is the product of the Liam/Angelus hybrid.

Now Angel... complicated being in his own way.
He is neither as ruthless and cruel as Angelus, nor complacently average as Liam. He straddles both worlds and has adapted accordingly.

I'm not so sure that the gypsies knew the extent of what they were doing to an INNOCENT MAN'S soul. After all, it was Angelus (the evil souless one) that killed the girl, not Liam (the soul which they thrust back into the souless creature to be tortured by the memories of what another personality of his did).

Hopefully I'm making some sense, cause I really don't think I am.
The posts above me are way too... Psych 101 for me.
Perhaps I've said the same thing, but am too unversed in the terms of "Superego" and "ID" and such to comprehend that.

=]

[Blondie Bear]

I think the problem here is that Joss/the writers never settled on what exactly a soul is and what impact it has on a person's personality. They were all vague with "no soul=bad; soul=good" but then having villains like Warren who were just as bad (in some ways) as the vampires . . . and were HUMAN, and so presumably had souls. If they had nailed down in their own minds what a soul was, then I think the storylines and characters would be much less confusing.

[Joyce Summers]

I think it was confusing in the writers not firmly stating what a soul is because no one really knows anyway. Even within Buffy, I doubt even Angel could truly say what a soul is. But belief, I say belief because some people do not believe in souls etc and you know, I don't wanna be presumptuous haha, seems to state that souls can be either good or bad, but it's your essence. What makes you who you are and reminds you of your conscience. Basically it's your Jiminy Cricket and whether you choose to listen is up to you.

Warren, you could say, had a corrupted soul, a 'bad' soul because of all the things he did without regret. He didn't listen to the moralometer so-to-speak. Angel on the other hand, despite what he was pre-vampiredom, had a good soul if he was a waste-of-space in general so by putting the soul back in him, it brought his goodness back.

So...if we go with that semi-theory, then if Warren was made a vampire and he was given his soul back, it would make little difference as his soul was corrupted anyway and would not affect his vampiric conscience.

Spike in life was pure goodness and sweetness really, so much so that it was a part of not just soul, but also him. It was definitely significantly diminished when he was sired but it was still there. Why else would he help the Scoobies in season 5, look after Dawn when Buffy was gone or quite happily sit down with Joyce for cocoa?

I believe I've rambled terribly, but somewhere there is a sensical theory. ;)

[xgirlanachronism245x]

I wouldn't really say Warren did what he did without regret. He acted out much like Faith did in the earlier seasons.
There is a difference from having a broken soul and no soul at all. I always assumed that Warren was just corrupted... not really evil, although his actions were plenty... bad...

Though what that difference is in the Buffyverse, only Joss and the other writers could tell us.

Spike was always a special case. I don't really think not having a soul affected him one bit purely because he did regret things even when he was souless (his mother, for example). I think not having a soul just let him be who he always wanted to. I don't really think he even liked the killing, just the violence. His sole purpose was Drusilla, then Buffy later on. Angel was different. He killed his family and felt nothing, until he got his soul back. His sole purpose was to kill and torture and maim. Spike just liked the fisticuffs every once in a while.

So, maybe we are being too general or perhaps too specfic on what a soul really is. That's a matter of opinion though, so it doesn't look like we'll ever reach a solid conclusion on this matter.

[palabravampiress]

Well, if we're going to throw souled!Spike into a discussion about Liam/Angelus/Angel, then I think we need to consider the way those two work together as foils. They reflect and highlight various aspects of each other's personalities. This setup is pretty common in mythology and literature from many different cultures and time periods. Think about Jacob and Essau, Castor and Pollux, the Ashvin brothers, Hamlet and Laertes, Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, etc. Spike is very much defined in relation to Angel, so talking about what Spike is -- and what he isn't -- should help us to better define Angel.

Because I'm a Jane Austen nut, I'm gonna bring up Wickham and Darcy. In Pride and Prejudice, the hero is a very reserved character. He's also not the main focus of the novel and spends much of the novel "off stage," so to speak. So how do we come to understand and root for the hero? We examine Wickham, his foil. By getting to know both men separately and comparing their opposite manners and actions, the heroine of the novel is able to sketch their characters in order to decide which is the good man and which only has the appearance of goodness. By this process, the hero is revealed as such even when he is not present for the current scene. Wickham and Darcy represent two very different models of Regency era manhood: the eighteenth century Chesterfieldian model and the emerging Victorian model. In much the same way, Angel and Spike represent those same two models, but of souled vampirism (or even heroism).

So let's look at how these boys are the same. They're from the same vampire family. They have an icky habit of comshucking (and, arguably, even loving) some of the same women. They are both famous and much-feared killers. They are both souled vampires. They are both world-saving champions. They were both sired by mother/lover figures. When first souled, they both suffer madness (of an apparently none-too-hygienic type) and crushing guilt. They both want the same two things: Buffy and redemption. Also, neither one really seems to believe they will get those things in the end, so with nothing to really risk or win, they both tend to display a willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of the world. Souled, they both also display a tendency toward doing the right thing just because it is right. Killing demons is one thing, but with souls, both find the idea of killing humans extremely distressing. Being souled doesn't just put a muzzle on their aggressive, bloodthirsty urges (like the chip did). Instead, having a soul takes away those urges (or at least lessens them to normal human levels). Basically, they serve the same essential function within the Buffyverse. That means that the differences have to be pretty darn meaningful.

So how are they different? This should prove enlightening. They differ in age, with Angel being the elder (and, therefore, usually the preferred) of the two. Spike often plays the underdog. Along with the subject of age, we should mention that Angel (as Liam) was reared in the Age of Reason, whereas Spike was reared in a veritable Age of Repression. They differ in nationality, with Spike's nation being the conquerors of Angel's nation. They differ greatly in physical appearance, with Angel being dark and having a bulky, traditionally manly physique. Spike is more lightly colored and has a compact, angular, more effeminate appearance (especially in early seasons, with the eyeliner and the painted nails). They were different kinds of evil, with Angel (as Angelus) glorying in slow psychological torment and Spike liking the adrenaline rush of a good, fast fight. Spike's driving motivation has always been love, whereas Angel's was his desire to be the best (whether he wanted to be the best killer or the best champion). The acquisition of their souls was very different. Angel's was foisted upon him as a curse, whereas Spike actively fought for his. Souled, Angel's personality fragmented from two to three distinct counterparts. Conversely, Spike's transition is less overt and dramatic. Angelus is cold and calculating when Angel would rely on bravery and purity of intention. Souled!Spike, however, is still Mr. Fists-and-Fangs.

Based on these similarities and differences, I think we can make some conclusions about how a soul does and doesn't function within a souled vampire. First and foremost, it diminishes aggressive, selfish impulses to human (or near human) levels. It promotes selflessness. It also acts as a conscience, inducing extreme amounts of guilt. The differences tell us what it doesn't do. If the soul changes something in Angel and not in Spike, then we can probably say that effect was caused by another variable, right? So what it doesn't do is alter appearance, personality, motivation, fighting style, etc. The soul doesn't change who someone is. It doesn't create two separate people. It just takes away the baser, unchecked vampire urges and replaces them with more heroic ones.

That means that, in vampires, the soul appears to affect the amygdala, which is the section of the brain that controls aggression, eating, drinking, and sexual behaviors. That makes sense, since vampirism is often used as a metaphor for sex and since the major areas of difference between vampires and humans are displayed in their appetites. Without the soul, the amygdala is hyperactive. With the soul, this area of the brain is suppressed. The person is in every other way unchanged except as that person would normally change due to experience or other factors. Souled or unsouled, Spike and Angel retain very real and striking differences of character, personality, and motivation. If the soul did really change personhood, Spike would have displayed a "break" in personalities when his soul was restored. Based on this, I would argue that Angel is not a different person from Angelus. Instead, the apparent "break" in personalities is probably a psychiatric condition brought about by external (or internal) variables. That also coincides with my theory of Angel as a Freudian figure.

So, yeah. I think souled or unsouled, Angel is the same person. The fractured personality is not the result of the soul but, rather, the result of some other variable or set of variables. The BIG difference, of course, is the way the two vampires obtained their souls. It seems possible, then, that Angel's fractured personality is the result of the trauma of having a soul suddenly forced upon him, whereas Spike's more ready integration of the soul is the result of the voluntary nature of his re-ensoulment as well as the prolonged period of "preparation" resulting from his time with the chip and his corresponding reintegration into human society. I don't think it's the soul itself that fractured Angel's personality. Rather, I think it was the method and timeline of reinserting the soul that did it. It's a subtle, yet important difference.

[Spuffy is true love]

and if they would have done that then what would the point of the Buffy Boards be? Joss did that so that there would be this kind of discussion. Almost nothing in Buffy is concrete, it's 99% up to interpretation.

[Joyce Summers]

Perhaps Joss thought 'Nyeh, if I get it wrong, the fans will debate up an answer and I'll pick from those...'. Haha.

Palabra- you're analyzing again. Very thorough. Will have a big, big read of that when I've more time and comment appropriately. :)

[The Ferg]

I totally agree. Angelus and Angel are two totally different people in my book. Imo, Angel is being punished for no apparent reason really.

[SoBlind]

mm i dont know if they're different ppl. buffy and willow have this little conversation in season 2 after angel turns evil where buffy says something like "hes not angel anymore" and willow says: "yea...except that you're still all he can think about."
though, obviously a person with a soul would be completely different to one without a soul.
and the thing with the curse not actually being a very good punishment is explained by joss whedon in an audio commentary where he admits that they had to figure out why that curse was made the way it was. hes explained it all by jennys uncle saying "Vengeance is a living thing." and "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."

[Jules]

My take on this is that Angelus is being punished. Angel is Angelus' prison cell. Why Angel is in charge Angelus can't committ any more acts of evil. True it gets more complicated when you factor in that Angel suffers as well. But I look at it the same way as Ben and Glory. Ben is Glory's jail cell. They are two different people that inhabit the same form.

[Superstar]

I don't know if I think the gypsy curse was successful in accomplishing its goal of punishment. I do know that I think it goes a long way toward making Angel the champion that he is, though.
That's an interesting thought.
In the Dark Horse limited series "Angel: Long Night's Journey" by Joss, this very thing is addressed.
Angelus was a test subject of re-ensoulment for another vampire in order to make Zheng a champion.

As for Angel/Angelus...
He does know inside that what the vampire becomes is based upon their life as a human and their personality. He states this to Willow in "Dopplegangland".
These inner motivations are unleashed when becoming a vampire.
Angel knows that Angelus is him unleashed. I think his problems come from accepting that fact.
Here's the rub that keeps him up at night (so to speak); Angel knows he will never be as good at being good as he was at being bad.
So yes, he does create a duality in self to cope. I think his brooding is more from keeping this duality in check than reflecting on harm that another "entity" did while possessing his body.

The reality; Liam felt he was belittled and given the paternal doom of amounting to nothing. So he attempted to excel in carousing, a feat mastered by the ne'er do well. When given real power as a vampire, he excelled at that. All to spite his father.

His punishment, a soul and loss of the lust for the kill. Punishment indeed for one such as him. Never again to excel in his chosen profession.
Angel admits several times that he misses the clarity of it all.
The dreams in "Somnambulist"; he admits freely that they’re not nightmares and that he enjoyed them.

[Tranquillity]

I don't think that Angelus and Angel are seperate people or beings - I'm of the opinion that Angelus is an aspect of Angel. So the curse works beautifully - it restrains Angelus and it punishes Angel by causeing him to suffer horribly for the sins he has committed.

I'll use an analogy with real people to illustrate my point; I'm sure this has happened to all of us at one time or another - you know when you are talking to someone who really annoys you or you don't like but you listen politely anyway, nodding and smileing on the outside all the while on the inside you are thinking - 'iI wish this person would shut up' or how much you can't stand them. The urge to say what you really think is regulated by the dictates of civility - you don't want to be rude, you want to avoid trouble, you want to be polite and liked so you say nothing....BUT that doesn't mean you don't think those other things or that you are a seperate entity in the same body. Those thoughts are part of you.

It is the same for Angel after he gets the soul - Angelus, his thoughts, his desires, his urges are still there, still part of Angel but the soul dictates his behaviour - gives him the moral compass not to act on them anymore. And it's hard for him to adapt. That's why he avoids people for so long after he gets the soul - he tried to go back to being 'bad' but that doesn't sit well with the soul/Conscience so then he becomes a recluse because he doesn't trust himself around the humans or his hold on his Angelus-urges. They are still there with him all the time, even when he is firmly on the side of good and it all comes back to the method of acquisition. Its a curse - something he doesn't essentially want, something he's forced to live with, something he's had to adapt to, something that makes his life a pain, it's what informs his quest for redemption, his need to balance the scales - he's serving his time. It's a punishment! That's why the duality of Angelus/Angel is so obvious where Spike and SouledSpike are barely distinguishable from one another, because 'Angel', the Angel we see, the heroic, broody, emotionally distant, disconnected, cautious, careing, vunerable guy is his response to the curse, his response to still having mass-murdering, human blood drinking urges even with the soul.