Discussion of "Angel: After the Fall #6" Release 04/02/08 *SPOILERS!"

[Clem Rocks]

Looks like it's my job to make the discussion threads now, huh? XD

Anyway, definatly not the best issue so far, but there were some good bits

Like Spike realising what he said about the dawn lol
Finding out that it seems like it is the fact that they're in hell has brought Fred back, and that going to hell had healing powers for vampires o_O I guess WR&H planned that to heal their own vamps and knew it wouldn't help Angel
And i loved how Lorne's story ended "...Lorne got his groove back, right After the Fall"

[goldenboy]

Connor musing about his three dads was a little odd. Gotta read that bit again. I liked the poetical Lorne story, that was fun. John Byrne's art...it's kind of crude looking, but funny and expressive.

And it does seem like Lynch has a pretty good handle on Spike's 'tude, his quips, etc.

[Clem Rocks]

The three dad's bit was confusing, it kinda seemed to me that they all kept switching order...
and shouldn't it be five dad's in the order of Angel, Holtz, Angel again, fake human guy and Angel yet again?

And i can't believe i'm saying this but...i want Franco back! D=

[Allycat]

I loved this issue. Brian hits all the character's voices just right and the different art in the different parts of the story help clearly set the stories apart.

Betta George's story is obviously the least interesting, but it's not really a story so much as a framing device, so that's okay.

Spike ... and Fred!!! Whoa!! I guess the hell-thing is doing something to Frelleria. The story itself is a bit short, but I guess we'll get learn more about what happens in Spike: After the Fall. I guess this story is sort of a back-door pilot.

I think Connor's story was the most interesting one, because it adds some new depth to the character. I'm not sure about how the bit with Connor's parents works though. Apparently, he didn't get all his memories back when Wesley broke that ball. Anyway, first time he says the order of fathers is Holtz, Angel, Mr Reilly. When his memories, even from when he was just a baby, return, he changes the order to Angel, Holtz, Mr Reilly.

Lorne's story is pretty good too... not the most interesting, but certainly the most fun. Like goldenboy said, John Byrne's style is not the most polished or realistic, but it does fit the story pretty well.

All in all yet another hit for A:AtF in my (comic)-book!

[Tranquillity]

I loved it.
The Spike story was great - really like the drawing and his voice is really well written. Loved how they captured Spikes "I'm gonna do what I like, no, dammit, I'm gonna help these people..." thing.
Best quote: "Screw you Dawn!...hope that's not taken out of context"

The Connor Story was my least favourite only because they made it clear that he got his memories back in "Origin" and now suddenly he's getting them back all over again? Maybe he got memory clarification - like more memories and more details. Quite like his dialogue though, very Connor-like. not so keen on the art but looking forward to seeing where this goes next.
Best quote: "Aw come on. Fantastic. My first time was with my surrogate mother!"

The Lorne story was nice, I like the art, but for me it did take a couple of readings to get the poetic rythym right and 'get' the story. It acctuallu does a really neat job of explaining how Lorne went from being totally depressed to being the lord of Silverlake really well. Loved the taxi with a face, how he hit the high note (i always wondered why he didn't use tat particular skill more often). Silverlake remindes me of Caritas - a peaceful patch in a usually violent world.
best quote: The casualties had been many, the violence so thick but they made a slice of heaven in H-E-double hockey sticks!

I'm really loving After the Fall! and how cool was it to get it two weeks early!

[Clem Rocks]

I've been thinking, assuming that it wasn't far into the battle that LA got sent to hell, was the battle really all that epic? Spike killed a few demons and was helping Fred/Illyria, Angel tamed a dragon and then broke his back and legs, and Gunn got sired.

Not really the big apocalypse that Lyndsey made it out to be in series 5, is it?

[thegifting]

I've been thinking, assuming that it wasn't far into the battle that LA got sent to hell, was the battle really all that epic? Spike killed a few demons and was helping Fred/Illyria, Angel tamed a dragon and then broke his back and legs, and Gunn got sired.

Not really the big apocalypse that Lyndsey made it out to be in series 5, is it?

That's the thing, isn't it?

Puzzles miss pieces, and you should remember that.

[Allycat]

A little clarification about the Connor-memories thing. Lynch explained it on whedonesque; Connor did get his memories back in Origin, but when he got to Hell he remembered everything... like things you and I wouldn't because we were babies. After Origin, Connor knew Angel and Cordy and everybody else as the people who took him in after Holtz had died. After he got to Hell he even remembered everything that happened before; Angel and Cordelia caring, and being like real parents to him, something he never experienced. So, he already knew he had slept with Cordelia, but only now did he realise how incestuous that was.

[Angel's Avenger]

Sounds good...just got Angel 4# today. Wow...two issues behind.

[thegifting]

...but only now did he realise how incestuous that was.

"Someone should write a play." -Angelus, 4.11 "Soulless"

[CharmedSlayer85]

Again I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm like really not feeling the Angel series so far. It's not as interesting as Buffy, it doesn't flow as well as Buffy and it's like overall it's just blah. I mean of course I'm going to continue to read it cause it's Angel and I'll support Joss, however I'm not finding myself looking forward to the next issue like I am with Buffy and the Anita Blake comic series

[Clem Rocks]

Again I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm like really not feeling the Angel series so far. It's not as interesting as Buffy, it doesn't flow as well as Buffy and it's like overall it's just blah. I mean of course I'm going to continue to read it cause it's Angel and I'll support Joss, however I'm not finding myself looking forward to the next issue like I am with Buffy and the Anita Blake comic series

I still think After the Fall is better than Buffy season 8 =]

[CharmedSlayer85]

I still think After the Fall is better than Buffy season 8 =]

Why's that? I personally aren't that interested in After the Fall. I feel it's lacking in something I dont' know what, but it doesn't remind me of the tv series, but Season Eight of Buffy does.

[Clem Rocks]

Why's that? I personally aren't that interested in After the Fall. I feel it's lacking in something I dont' know what, but it doesn't remind me of the tv series, but Season Eight of Buffy does.

That's the point, Buffy is just like the show was, Angel's always been better than Buffy imo

[Allycat]

I'm with Clem Rocks here. Although they're very close, I think that in terms of story, AAtF is a little bit better than Bs8. Art not so much AAtF's strength, but on story they win. The main thing about Angel is that there's a close group of friends who are together trying to make the world a better place, whereas in Buffy, all the friendships apart from Bander are very disconnected.

[nerd4hire]

I'm with Clem Rocks here. Although they're very close, I think that in terms of story, AAtF is a little bit better than Bs8. Art not so much AAtF's strength, but on story they win. The main thing about Angel is that there's a close group of friends who are together trying to make the world a better place, whereas in Buffy, all the friendships apart from Bander are very disconnected.

You have so missed the point of Season 8. It's about the loneliness of responsibility, and how you can never be so alone as when you are in a large group, and how power can drive a wedge between close relationships.

Perhaps that's the attraction of A:ATF. One doesn't have to worry about getting the point, because it doesn't appear to have one. :whistle:

[Allycat]

I got that that was the point of Season 8. However, I think that although it's an interesting theme to work with, it is also a difficult one, because such disconnectedness makes it harder to tell a good, interesting, and entertaining story. Moreover there are a couple other smaller grievances I have with Season 8, that make me choose After the Fall, which I won't go into because that would make this thread go even more O/T than it already has. As for whether or not A:AtF has a point, I'm pretty sure it does, but it's not fully out there yet. Perhaps that's the attraction of Season 8. You know from the very start of the series, what the theme of the stories is, you don't have to analyse each story carefully to gradually get a grasp of what is really happening and what is meant by it ;).

[nerd4hire]

So it sounds like you're saying Season 8 is shallow, where A:ATF is deep.

Other than "gimme a break", I'm not sure I know how to respond.

[thegifting]

Angel's always been better than Buffy imo

Seriously, it's not even close.
I might could understand why girls wouldn't feel that way, having some young heroine that's into their shit and everything (still retarded), but other than that it's like comparing Buffy's preschool wiffleball to Angel's game 7 of the World Series.

Truly, I cannot comprehend how anybody could ever think anything Buffy is better than anything Angel. Oat bars and children that need to shut the hell up with exhaustinngly dull wit VS adults with adult emotions using adult words and adult logic to get somewhere in life? LOL @ Buffy fanatics.

[Allycat]

Does anybody else feel like this thread needs a spin-off in the form of which is better A:AtF or Bs8? And maybe we could go ahead and spin off that one to: Angel vs Buffy...

[Ashxking]

ATF seems to be a case of the sum is greater than the parts. When its all over I plan on readying the story from right after NFA ended till the free for all battle. With Buffy you have a few storie lines all playing out at diffrent speeds. Angel has only one

[Allycat]

ATF seems to be a case of the sum is greater than the parts. When its all over I plan on readying the story from right after NFA ended till the free for all battle. With Buffy you have a few storie lines all playing out at diffrent speeds. Angel has only one

I don't think Angel only has one storyline, most of the characters all have their own storylines. You are right in a way though, because in A:AtF all the characters storylines are all inextricably linked to the main plot of LA-in-Hell. That's why I think it might seem like a single story lines. Whereas with Buffy, all the storylines of the different characters are not directly results from the main Twilight-storyline.

[nerd4hire]

A:ATF is a stew prepared by drunken frat boys. "Hey, let's throw some of this in".

Buffy Season 8 is fine dining prepared by a master chef.

Some people prefer one. Some the other.

[Keanoite]

Whereas with Buffy, all the storylines of the different characters are not directly results from the main Twilight-storyline.

Maybe not yet but I think just like the tv show the comic will eventually pull every arc together that will all interweeve with Twilight. You can't really compare ATF and S8 in my opinion becuase Buffy will be a 40 issue monster. It has more to time to spend telling it's story. ATF is much shorter so it has to make everything connect quicker than S8.

[Allycat]

Maybe not yet but I think just like the tv show the comic will eventually pull every arc together that will all interweeve with Twilight. You can't really compare ATF and S8 in my opinion becuase Buffy will be a 40 issue monster. It has more to time to spend telling it's story. ATF is much shorter so it has to make everything connect quicker than S8.

Actually I think it's the other way. Buffy tells its stories 4-part arcs, whereas Angel features only one stories split into 14-parts... obviously, this one has lots more details.

[thegifting]

Actually I think it's the other way. Buffy tells its stories 4-part arcs, whereas Angel features only one stories split into 14-parts... obviously, this one has lots more details.

Oh, absolutely. I read most of an issue of Buffy S8, looked at a few others, and the thing I first noticed (other than all their in-book artists needing to teach Urru how to draw, which really isn't a problem anymore) was how little detail there was, about anything important. The second thing I noticed was that the story seriously lacked cohesion. Even if everything came together at the end it'd be beause of some ex machina, or because they simply intersect at the end, but there's no common theme I can find. I noticed other things, but those two things are totally vital and crucial to me in a fiction property, and you're completely right that Angel is packed to the brim with revelations, a close sense of relation to every other issue, and even tiny details here and there that super fans, like people that would belong and post on a msg board about it, really appreciate.

Also, the character development has been unreal. Not only did I imagine that restarting the series would be a near impossible endevour, which now makes me feel like an idiot, but that I wouldn't possibly come to feel genuinely closer to the characters than I did before, and it's happening in spades.

[CharmedSlayer85]

I mean you say Angel is about a group of friends trying to make the world a better place, but Buffy is about that as well. If it wasn't for her group of friends Buffy would've been dead in Season One. Also on top of that is you look at Angel he's disconnected from his friends as well. Gunn is a vampire trying to kill Angel, Spike and Illyria are on their side of the town, Connor is doing whatever with his people, Lorne is living in a paradise in this hell type dimension of LA and even though they banded together in comic #5 they're still pretty much disconnected. They don't even know Angel is human. And with Buffy you can't expect the Scobby Gang to remain completely inseperable. I mean Buffy has her life and her calling, Willow has her life and her training and learning more about the mystics and on top of that her relationship, Dawn has her life and was away back in America at college before she became a giant, Xander has his life and even went to have a romantic getaway with Dracula for a year after the events of Chosen and will probably have a life with Renee, Giles has his life with trying to get the watcher's counsel back in order and now his mission with Faith of rehabilitating rogue slayers, and also since the events of Lies My Parents Told Me, Buffy and Giles' relationship has been strained

[TheHeartist]

Oh, absolutely. I read most of an issue of Buffy S8, looked at a few others, and the thing I first noticed (other than all their in-book artists needing to teach Urru how to draw, which really isn't a problem anymore) was how little detail there was, about anything important. The second thing I noticed was that the story seriously lacked cohesion. Even if everything came together at the end it'd be beause of some ex machina, or because they simply intersect at the end, but there's no common theme I can find. I noticed other things, but those two things are totally vital and crucial to me in a fiction property, and you're completely right that Angel is packed to the brim with revelations, a close sense of relation to every other issue, and even tiny details here and there that super fans, like people that would belong and post on a msg board about it, really appreciate.

Also, the character development has been unreal. Not only did I imagine that restarting the series would be a near impossible endevour, which now makes me feel like an idiot, but that I wouldn't possibly come to feel genuinely closer to the characters than I did before, and it's happening in spades.

I have to agree totally here, and a prime example of the excellent character development (and I know this has been said many times) is the awesome treatment Connor is getting. We're getting to see what a good upbringing has turned this future Champion into, something I believe Joss had planned to show us during season six had it been televised.

[CharmedSlayer85]

Yeah I don't think Angel is going to be as long as Buffy, so as a result everything has to be laid out on the table as opposed to Buffy. Buffy is suppose to continue for like the next 2 years, cause there are going to be 40 issues and with each issue coming out one a month that's about 3 1/2 years all together. We're only on issue 13 with Buffy and we still got 27 more to go. And I believe Angel is only 12 issues and we're already on issue 6 so only 6 more to go, so everything has to be wrapped up and let's remember the comics aren't that long.

[Spike Angelus]

I just couldn't get into this issue. I think it's the same problem I have with most prequels, we already know what happens. There's no suspense.