Buffy's a B*t*h!

[Spuffy is true love]

So I just got done watching Sanctuary and at the end with the whole "get outta my town" thing that Angel says, first off completely inline Buffy had no right to go in there thinking she knows everything. But what she said after that.........O MAN! She picked the one thing that she knew would absolutely KILL Angel, "I have someone in my life now" and then brings up Riley??? Come on! That I feel is one of the lowest points in the Buffy charecter. Does anyone else agree with me? I mean she didn't do that to make a point, she didn't do it to help anyone, she just did it b/c she knew it would piss Angel off and hurt him and that's what she wanted to do b/c he did something she didn't agree with in helping Faith......grrrrr (arg)

[Joyce Summers]

Yes, she said it to hurt Angel but that's because Angel had just hurt her. His whole attitude in general to her presence was very hurtful as though he no longer wanted her around or wanted to see her, she retalliated, perhaps a little childishly with a 'yeah, well I don't care about you either coz guess what?'.

She wasn't being spiteful, she was just hurt herself and trying to cover it up by giving as good as she got. And then of course we see in The Yoko Factor that both weren't happy with that conversation, that they said things they didn't mean and that they didn't mean to be so hurtful. Just like in an ex case scenario really where you still at least partially like the ex, haha.

[Spuffy is true love]

don't you think that maybe part of that anger had to do with Angel remembering that one perfect day he had with Buffy while she had no recollection of it at all? I mean they agreed to stay apart, so she shouldn't have come to LA. Yeah maybe his life was in danger but Angel's a big vampire, he can take care of himself. Plus the whole reason she showed up was because of Faith, it had very little to do with Angel.

[VisionGuy]

What I find funny is that Buffy yelled at Angel in "I Will Remember You" for trying to protect her. Then she turns around and tried to protect him from Faith in "Sanctuary" expecting him to just go along with it.

[littlewilly]

Im watching season 1 just now(war zone) and Buffy was in the wrong,
she just turns up expecting Angel to act how she wants him to act, You dont see angel going to sunnydale to stick his nose in(at least is Pangs he had the common sense to not be seen)
Angel was trying to get over Buffy and she shows up trying to be bossy talking about Reilly. She is Lucky Angel was mature enough to go to Sunnydale and patch things up.
Of course though, Buffy obviously still loved Angel more than Reilly at this point. so i cant cut her some slack.

[apocalypse]

I think a large part of Buffy's character is arrogance, so I wasn't particularly surprised by her outrageous bitchiness.
And, she was being a huge bitch.

[Jess]

I think a large part of Buffy's character is arrogance, so I wasn't particularly surprised by her outrageous bitchiness.
And, she was being a huge bitch.

ah I must agree D: I really hate the end of Sanctuary when she acts like that. I was so happy when Angel yelled at her haha.

[Cangel]

Honestly, I can understand Buffy's reaction. Maybe it was a mean thing to say, but that's the way people act when they fight. Plus, it's not like Angel was completely nice and understanding to her with all his 'Get out of my town'. And also let's not forget this whole fight originally started because of Faith, and well, Faith was always a weak spot for Buffy.

[Angel's vision]

Angel hurts whenever he see's Buffy and it reminds him of what he can't have, plus his memories of being with her as a human don't help. Then Faith shows up and he see's an opening for her to change, he steps in. Buffy comes along and ok everyone knows how she tried to mess up Buffy's life, big time, she then starts letting petty jealousy get in the way of sound jugement, when she see's Faith being comforted by Angel. Infact I would say it was a small gripe,cos the real gripe was her seeing Faith getting help and she got angry that she wasn't seeing Angel either pound her into bits or at least get angry and have ago at her, and give her the treatment Buffy felt she deserves. So they fight. Angel wasn't going to say Buffy I understand your pissed off, and give her the sympathy vote, because 1) She wasn't going to listen.
2) She was telling him what to do.
Angel didn't see vengeance as the answer and he tried to explain this to Buffy, it would of helped her see it from a different perspective, and maybe she could come to terms with her feelings for Faith, which I no doubt see Angel wanting this to happen.

But no, so Buffy like I said, knows seeing her hurts him like he said to her. Which might explain why he was barking at her the way he did. She takes advantage of this and hurts him back, with her "I have a new boyfriend and new life" because he didn't act the way she wanted him to act. Both were not willing to listen and when Angel tried to explain not only to Buffy but to his team they block their ears and yap their bit over him so he gets to half of what he was trying to say, I know Angel can't communicate well at times, but this time when he was or rather clumsilly trying to, Buffy especially blocks any efforts he tries to make.

She was understandibly annoyed at Faith but didn't know when to stop and see the bigger picture.

[LorneyTunes]

Well i guess on Angel you have to make Angel the Better Hero plus he has a few hundreds years on our Buffy, shes just Bitter Angel did kinda just leave sunnydale and Buffy so yeah shes Totally bitter cause shes not with him and hes spending Quaulity time with Faith and not her x

[Five]

She was a total bitca. I just saw that episode again, and now that I have all the facts (last time I had just watched it without seeing the previous Angel eps), I must say I'm highly disappointed in Buffy, me who usually just loves her. I think her whole appearance was totally out of character, she wasn't understanding, she wasn't caring, plus she was a bit dumb. I understand that she was angry with Angel, because she was hurt to see him hug Faith after what she had just done to Riley... But the two moments where she was totally out of line imo were :
1/ hitting Angel, getting hit back and yelling at him for hitting her : she has the right to if she wants to protect her opinions, but he hasn't if he wants to protect his !
2/ I can deal with the "I have someone in my life now that I love" thing; but I'm not okay with it when she says that she trusts Riley and didn't use to trust Angel. That's just so wrong and incorrect. Bitca.

[caitaintdead]

What is wrong with you people? Ok so I do understand that people seem to actually like Faith, which to me doesn't make a grain of sense. Faith is the nasty person, she may be a lost girl, but Faiths actions, if anyones, were beyond being a slight b*tch. Buffy was fantastic to Faith, had her over for dinners, talked to her, made time for her and if Faith hadn't of been so horrible to Buffy, Buffy would have looked out for Faith and taken care of her.
Faith stomped all over Buffy's hospitality and kindness. Faith succeeded in sleeping with one of Buffy's boyfriends, and tried very hard to sleep with the other one, and then tried to kill him. Along with trying to kill everyone that means something to Buffy. If I was Buffy I would be furious. Beyond furious. Or I suppose if my best friend acted in this way, even just sleeping with my boyfriend would be enough for me to want to kill her!
I don't mean to offend people that can see something 'nice' about Faith, but I don't understand where any of you are coming from.

[caitaintdead]

eunsoma can I ask why you like her without sounding like I'm starting an argument? I just don't get it. I really would like to understand cause I must be the only person that doesn't seem to like her.
I really don't want to sound like a b*tch myself, it's not my intention, but I just don't get why people like her. She's pretty horrible most of the time.

[littlewilly]

Eunsoma??? they aint left a message

[Lindsey McDonald]

Yes, Faith was horrible to Buffy, and yes, she did some terrible things, but Buffy needs to be able to suck it up and get over it. She is the slayer: she needs to see the big picture. Angel was always seeing the big picture, and Buffy always knew that he would try to help her. It's just that Buffy has always been jealous of Faith, and that severely clouds her judgement. I mean, Willow tried to kill her sister, but because they were friends, Buffy didn't consider killing her. It's the same with Anya, she goes all demony again and because Buffy doesn't like her as much, she grabs the sword.

Buffy always holds people to a double standard, and her jealousy of Faith leads to her refusing to listen to Angel. She has every right to be angry when she walked in, but hitting him, then being surprised when he hit back? She had no right. If she refuses to set aside her petty jealousies and see the situation as it is, Angel is perfectly justified in shouting at her. The situation was far too dangerous for Buffy to be blundering her way through with all her emotional baggage. Faith, a renegade slayer, was on the brink of redemption, and Buffy refuses to see it. She knows that the world is not black and white, but for her at that moment it was all green. It's understandible, but she was still very much in the wrong.

I also want to point out that although I don't like what she said, I like that she said it. It was a good episode. And I like Faith too. Mainly because you always knew that she really, deep down, craved to be good, and to be like Buffy. She was jealous too, but she got over it. Well, quicker than Buffy anyway.

[The Kinslayer]

People like Faith becasuse her character is interesting. She´s behaved very very bad, but at the same time we feel her pain and that gives her our sympathy. And then she´s showing improvement we´ve an easier time accepting that considering her background. We know how hard a time she´s had. She needs support.

Buffy on the other hand has always been the good one, making the right choices (well, most of the times anyway). No one says her life has been easy, it hasn´t. But since she mostly seem to cope with it quite well (in comparision to Faith) we hold her to a higher standard than Faith. So then she isn´t on top it´s easier to complain about it.

If Faith is having a bad moment it´s more like a normal day, but if it´s Buffy we react much more. Yeah, Buffy was kind of bitchy in "Sanctuary", and even if it´s understandable we go crazy as we feel it´s out of character.

I like Faith more than Buffy, but if I´d to choose one to be friends with I would choose Buffy 9 out of 10 times. Characters in a show is a whole other thing.

[Spuffy is true love]

What is wrong with you people? Ok so I do understand that people seem to actually like Faith, which to me doesn't make a grain of sense. Faith is the nasty person, she may be a lost girl, but Faiths actions, if anyones, were beyond being a slight b*tch.

OK WTF??? Faith was a fantastic character that most people seem to enjoy. She represented the dark side of the slayer and every slayer has a dark side. If you recall in Buffy S7, the slayer is actually possessed by a demon. She may have been a bitch on more than a few occassions but Buffy and Angel are all about Forgiveness. The entire series of Angel is based on that, Angel is trying to earn forgiveness and atone for what he has done in his past. Faith was trying to do the same thing and Buffy got in the way.

Buffy was fantastic to Faith, had her over for dinners, talked to her, made time for her and if Faith hadn't of been so horrible to Buffy, Buffy would have looked out for Faith and taken care of her. Faith stomped all over Buffy's hospitality and kindness. Faith succeeded in sleeping with one of Buffy's boyfriends, and tried very hard to sleep with the other one, and then tried to kill him. Along with trying to kill everyone that means something to Buffy.

Xander did this many times throughout Buffy. The end of Season 2, the Begining of Season 3. Xander stomped all over Buffy's hospitality and kindness and duties and choices but no one gets pissed off at him for it. Buffy pulled the power card in this situation in Angel. She said I am the slayer I make the laws and whoever stands in my way is gonna get it. This is totally uncharecteristic of Buffy b/c she was acting out of emotion b/c of the aforementioned things. Even acting out of emotion can cause you to be a bitch sometimes.

If I was Buffy I would be furious. Beyond furious. Or I suppose if my best friend acted in this way, even just sleeping with my boyfriend would be enough for me to want to kill her!
I don't mean to offend people that can see something 'nice' about Faith, but I don't understand where any of you are coming from.

Who wouldn't be furious if someone just slept with your boyfriend. But you didn't see Xander go all "Unforgiven" on Buffy when Spike slept with Anya. Just because Faith made some mistakes doesn't mean that she is evil forever and she is able to change. That is one of the bottom lines in Buffy, anyone can Change. Angel, Spike, Xander, Willow, Giles, even Quentin from the Watcher's Council changed. You can't hold what someone has done in the past against them to prevent them from changing. Faith admitted what she had done and took responsibility for it, that is to be commended.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Xander did this many times throughout Buffy. The end of Season 2, the Begining of Season 3. Xander stomped all over Buffy's hospitality and kindness and duties and choices but no one gets pissed off at him for it.
Don't read many of these forums, do you? Xander catches nearly as much grief as Buffy for his actions.

Buffy pulled the power card in this situation in Angel. She said I am the slayer I make the laws and whoever stands in my way is gonna get it. This is totally uncharecteristic of Buffy b/c she was acting out of emotion b/c of the aforementioned things. Even acting out of emotion can cause you to be a bitch sometimes.
I still fail to see why that's a bigger deal than being a bitch just, y'know, 'cause someone wanna be. It never ceases to amaze me how many people will make excuses for nearly every character on the show who chose to do the wrong thing, and at the same time give the others hell for behaving badly while under tremendous emotional stress - something that's a completely human thing to do.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Rowan Hawthorn disagrees: Buffy jealous of Faith? Were we watching the same show?

Buffy has always been jealous of Faith. Faith gets to play the wild girl life whilst Buffy is stuck in her good girl, responsible slayer shoes. Also, there's the whole sex thing; Faith is able to act on impulse and can have anyone, Buffy can't seem to get anyone to stick around. Faith even manages to sleep with Riley, and Buffy thinks she and Angel are far to close when she storms in. She's incredibly jealous. She knows what a crappy life Faith has, but it doesn't stop her from being jealous - the same goes for Faith regarding Buffy.

Then again, if you can't see that Buffy was jealous of Faith throughout, maybe you were watching a different show.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Buffy has always been jealous of Faith. Faith gets to play the wild girl life whilst Buffy is stuck in her good girl, responsible slayer shoes. Also, there's the whole sex thing; Faith is able to act on impulse and can have anyone, Buffy can't seem to get anyone to stick around. Faith even manages to sleep with Riley, and Buffy thinks she and Angel are far to close when she storms in. She's incredibly jealous. She knows what a crappy life Faith has, but it doesn't stop her from being jealous - the same goes for Faith regarding Buffy.

Then again, if you can't see that Buffy was jealous of Faith throughout, maybe you were watching a different show.

I saw Buffy being resentful of Faith, and I don't see where anyone can rationally blame her for that, or why Faith gets a pass for much worse behavior towards Buffy than anything Buffy gave her in return until pushed past the limits. Faith basically walked in and tried to take or destroy everything in Buffy's life. Don't get me wrong: I liked Faith as a character, because of the conflict and drama she brought to the show. But Faith, the character is a different matter. All I can say is, in Buffy's place, I'd have put a piece of steel in her way before "Graduation Day"...

[Kana]

Buffy has always been jealous of Faith. Faith gets to play the wild girl life whilst Buffy is stuck in her good girl, responsible slayer shoes. Also, there's the whole sex thing; Faith is able to act on impulse and can have anyone, Buffy can't seem to get anyone to stick around. Faith even manages to sleep with Riley, and Buffy thinks she and Angel are far to close when she storms in. She's incredibly jealous. She knows what a crappy life Faith has, but it doesn't stop her from being jealous - the same goes for Faith regarding Buffy.

Then again, if you can't see that Buffy was jealous of Faith throughout, maybe you were watching a different show.

Mostly disagree. Buffy only really resented having a second slayer about in the beginning. After that she tried to embrace her.

I think they both learned a little from each other. In Bad Girls, Buffy initially embraces Faith's want take, have philosophy but when things go too far, Buffy freaks. There may be certain elements of Buffy that can be seen as repressed but she is a very moral girl. She believes Faith is doing THE WRONG THING.

Also she never really had Angel or Riley. Buffy felt a little insecure about Faith's experience but I doubt having empty sex with guys is the sort of lifestyle Buffy wants. She emotionally beat herself up about her relationship with Spike in Season 6 lest we forget.

I think they learned from each other though. Buffy taps into that primal side of the Slayer in Buffy Vs Dracula and Faith begins to listen to her conscience.

I'd overall say that Faith was more jealous of Buffy overall and often rationalised her actions. Buffy's actions/feelings toward Faith were partially reactionary, to do with her strong morals and, yes, there is a element of control there as well or at least hating to lose control.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Mostly disagree. Buffy only really resented having a second slayer about in the beginning. After that she tried to embrace her.

I think they both learned a little from each other. In Bad Girls, Buffy initially embraces Faith's want take, have philosophy but when things go too far, Buffy freaks. There may be certain elements of Buffy that can be seen as repressed but she is a very moral girl. She believes Faith is doing THE WRONG THING.

Also she never really had Angel or Riley. Buffy felt a little insecure about Faith's experience but I doubt having empty sex with guys is the sort of lifestyle Buffy wants. She emotionally beat herself up about her relationship with Spike in Season 6 lest we forget.

I think they learned from each other though. Buffy taps into that primal side of the Slayer in Buffy Vs Dracula and Faith begins to listen to her conscience.

I'd overall say that Faith was more jealous of Buffy overall and often rationalised her actions. Buffy's actions/feelings toward Faith were partially reactionary, to do with her strong morals and, yes, there is a element of control there as well or at least hating to lose control.

I agree that Faith was more jealous of Buffy, but I still see Buffy as jealous of Faith too. Jealosy isn't rational or logical, Buffy realises that Faith's choices are bad. She doesn't want to be "bad," I suppose it's more the fact that Faith is free to make those choices that Buffy wants. Faith, even in jail, always has an air of freedom about her, whereas Buffy is stuck down being the "proper" slayer - which is ironic considering on the whole cosmic scale of things, Faith is the "proper" slayer, at least till The Gift where it gets all confusing. I'm not saying jealousy is Buffy's only motivation to take Faith down in this ep, or even that it is her primary one, but I do still contest that it is definately there.

[Harm's Way]

I love the way she acts. Angel thinks he's so cool at the end and Buffy's like "uhhhh..."

[caitaintdead]

Eunsoma??? they aint left a message

Right above your karma comment on my post eunsoma left a message as well saying that he/she likes Faith. In reply to your other question, if we are discussing how Buffy acts when dealing with Faith then I think it is of high importance for us to also look at Faith as a character as well as just Buffy as a character.

It seems that it is always far to easy for people to point out the flaws in Buffy's character, despite, in my opinion, Faith being a lot nastier. Faith being horrible is what led Buffy being upset.

[Angel's vision]

People and Buffy seem to miss the point here liking Faith is a matter of personal opinion, and they are not saying they liked what Faith did, maybe they are seeing like Angel saw a messed up girl who couldn't handle one accidental kill, so she hid from the turmoil of it and went down that dark road because the pain stopped, then Buffy stabbed her after Faith poisoned Angel so she would help cure him, Faith fell into a passing truck, I felt at this point two wrongs don't make a right, Buffy should not of stabbed her, and when Faith woke up, she wanted to screw Buffy-understandable, but her actions like body swapping were wrong too. Buffy was understandably pissed, BUT Faith then tries to engineer her death by agreeing to kill Angel and play this game where she gets him to kill her, Angel see's this as a final escape from her pain that is finally so much she wants out, she see's herself as a nothing, because maybe she was told this so many times by her drunk mother, she had no love and just saw her actions as proof of what she felt about herself, Angel helps by seeing to it that HE can help her to see that she can be good and because he felt all this aswell he can only offer that much needed support.

Buffy can't see this, because she has never been there, and because of what Faith did, it blinds her to see what is REALLY happening, Faith is trying to redeem herself. Angel saw and I saw a hurting girl who is messed up and needs love and redemption, and is seeking it, It is hard NOT to feel some sorrow for her.

It isn't all in black and white, anfd maybe when Buffy was trying to help Faith it was not the right timing and then when things went bad she GAVE UP on Faith.
Angel was the only person who could help, the last thing he wanted was an angry girl trying to STOP him.

[Lindsey McDonald]

People and Buffy seem to miss the point here liking Faith is a matter of personal opinion, and they are not saying they liked what Faith did, maybe they are seeing like Angel saw a messed up girl who couldn't handle one accidental kill, so she hid from the turmoil of it and went down that dark road because the pain stopped, then Buffy stabbed her after Faith poisoned Angel so she would help cure him, Faith fell into a passing truck, I felt at this point two wrongs don't make a right, Buffy should not of stabbed her, a , but her actions like body swapping were wrong too. Buffy was understandably pissed, BUT Faith then tries to engineer her death by agreeing to kill Angel and play this game where she gets him to kill her, Angel see's this as a final escape from her pain that is finally so much she wants out, she see's herself as a nothing, because maybe she was told this so many times by her drunk mother, she had no love and just saw her actions as proof of what she felt about herself, Angel helps by seeing to it that HE can help her to see that she can be good and because he felt all this aswell he can only offer that much needed support.

Buffy can't see this, because she has never been there, and because of what Faith did, it blinds her to see what is REALLY happening, Faith is trying to redeem herself. Angel saw and I saw a hurting girl who is messed up and needs love and redemption, and is seeking it, It is hard NOT to feel some sorrow for her.

It isn't all in black and white, anfd maybe when Buffy was trying to help Faith it was not the right timing and then when things went bad she GAVE UP on Faith.
Angel was the only person who could help, the last thing he wanted was an angry girl trying to STOP him.

I think I got a little distracted from the point when you said and when Faith woke up, she wanted to screw Buffy-understandable ;P I do pretty much agree with you though; some people cant seperate liking a character as a construct and liking a character as a person - like what Rowan was saying. I love Faith as a character because of the journey she goes on, but it doesn't mean I think what she did was right or that I would like to be in her life.

I also agree about Buffy giving up on Faith, and I understand why she did it, but it's the way she did it that I dislike her for. As a person and not a construct, of course. God....I'm confusing myself now.....

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well, we also need to understand that here was a girl whom Buffy had tried to help, and in return had:

* framed Buffy for a killing that Faith committed, accidentally or not,
* nearly killed Angel, and was at one time or another on the verge of killing Willow, Xander, and Joyce (all by her own hand,) if not for other people's intervention,
* chose to help the mayor in attempting to kill all of them plus the entire graduating class,
* and stole Buffy's own body, which nearly got Buffy killed again.

So then, when Faith reappears, Buffy is pretty much told to piss off and mind her own business. And people have a problem with the way Buffy reacted? Buffy could have let the Watchers' Council hitmen have her - it would have been that "poetic justice" Faith tried to reference in "Who Are You," but instead she helped save Faith's ass. She's a better person than I am...

[Lindsey McDonald]

So then, when Faith reappears, Buffy is pretty much told to piss off and mind her own business.

That's not quite true though. Buffy refuses to trust Angel, despite the fact that he is the only person who has ever had a positive influence on her. What she does in this episode is tantamount to what Wesley did originally. Plus - one person in the world she should trust when it comes to seeking redemption: Angel. I understand the attacks on Faith, but she is unjustly bitchy to Angel. First she hits him, then she lashes out and tries to hurt him because she's feeling so bad. All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says. She was exactly the same in I Will Remember You, when he had been in Sunnydale and it had been painful for her. Selective amnesia, much? :D

[Kana]

I agree that Faith was more jealous of Buffy, but I still see Buffy as jealous of Faith too. Jealosy isn't rational or logical, Buffy realises that Faith's choices are bad. She doesn't want to be "bad," I suppose it's more the fact that Faith is free to make those choices that Buffy wants. Faith, even in jail, always has an air of freedom about her, whereas Buffy is stuck down being the "proper" slayer - which is ironic considering on the whole cosmic scale of things, Faith is the "proper" slayer, at least till The Gift where it gets all confusing. I'm not saying jealousy is Buffy's only motivation to take Faith down in this ep, or even that it is her primary one, but I do still contest that it is definately there.

I still don't think Buffy's envy of Faith's freedom is anywhere in the domain of Faith's resentment. I honestly don't think Buffy would want to make those choices. She could only slip into the path a little when she came back from hell but even then her moral fibre didn't allow her to fully enjoy it. I would say it was how Faith treated her and her morals that are mostly guiding her. Any 'jealousy' was mostly reactive to the situation.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

That's not quite true though. Buffy refuses to trust Angel, despite the fact that he is the only person who has ever had a positive influence on her. What she does in this episode is tantamount to what Wesley did originally. Plus - one person in the world she should trust when it comes to seeking redemption: Angel. I understand the attacks on Faith, but she is unjustly bitchy to Angel. First she hits him, then she lashes out and tries to hurt him because she's feeling so bad. All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says. She was exactly the same in I Will Remember You, when he had been in Sunnydale and it had been painful for her. Selective amnesia, much? :D

Well, apparently on *one* of our parts:

--- Buffy's first sight of Angel and Faith ---
Angel: "Hey. Hey. Hey. Shh. Hey. (Leads her over to the day bed) Sit down. Shh. It's- it's okay. (Faith wraps her arms around Angel's neck, careful not to touch him with her bloody hands) Hey. It's gonna be okay. Okay? (Angel holds her) Shh. Alright."
Angel looks over as he hears someone come down the stairs. It's Buffy.
Angel gets up: "Buffy. (Buttoning his shirt) I didn't know you..."
Buffy: "What..."
Buffy looks from him to Faith still sitting on the day bed staring at her bloody hands, then back to Angel.
Buffy: "How... What are you doing?"
Angel: "She - we were attacked."
Buffy: "We? - You and..."
Angel: "Faith."
Buffy: "You and Faith."
Angel: "Oh, it's not what you think."
Buffy: "You actually think that I can form a thought right now? - Giles heard that - that she tried to kill you."
Angel: "That's true."
Buffy: "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
Angel: "Is that why you're here? To punish her?"
Buffy: "I was worried about you."

--- Oh, but, hey, there's a good and full explanation coming. Or, y'know - not ---
Faith: "Buffy. (Buffy looks at her) Oh, god."
Buffy walks closer to Faith who is cringing away form her.
Buffy: "You didn't think I was going to find you, did you?"
Angel: "Buffy, let's talk."
Buffy: "Oh, I don't think talk is in order right now."
Angel: "She needs help."
Buffy whips around to face Angel: "Help? Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: "Do you care?"
Angel: "She wants to change. She has a chance to..."
Buffy: "No. No chance. Jail."
Faith slowly gets up.
Angel: "You think that'll help?"
Faith: "Buffy... (Buffy whips around to face her) I'm sor..."
Buffy: "Apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
Faith quietly: "Go ahead."
Angel steps in front of Faith: "This is not gonna happen."
Buffy: "You're gonna stop me? Because you're gonna have to."
Faith shakes her head: "Don't - so this."
Angel: "Faith, go upstairs - now."
Buffy: "You think I'm gonna let her out of my sight?"
Angel: "Buffy, just back off."
Buffy: "There is no way I'm letting her out of my sight."
Angel: "Faith, go!"
Faith goes up the stairs and Buffy moves to stop her.

--- Leading up to Buffy's punching Angel when ---
Buffy: "Don't you move a..."
Angel catches her arm and she turns to punch him full in the face. She hauls back to hit him again, but Angel blocks her fist and hits her across the face in return.
Angel steps back as Buffy stares at him with a hand over her mouth.
Angel: "I'm sorry. - I'm sorry."
----------------------

So, let's see: Buffy hears from Giles that Faith (who already tried to kill Angel and all the rest of them on more than one occasion,) has made another attempt on Angel, so she goes down to L.A. to help. Notice that, unlike Angel in "Pangs", she didn't skulk around behind his back - she went straight to him. And what does she find but Faith in his arms. Bzzt! Strike one for the trust issue.

"Do you know what she did to me?"
"Yes."
"Do you care?"
"She wants to change--" Bzzt! Strike two for "trust". Here's a tip, Angel: if the love of your life asks, "Do you care?" you say, "YES!" It doesn't matter what the frickin' subject is. Especially if she just caught you hugging the woman who tried to kill her, frame her, steal two of her boyfriends - oh, and her actual frickin' body!

At this point, Angel is trying to separate the two of them, but there's no way in hell it could look to Buffy like anything but taking Faith's side against her. And then he grabs Buffy when she starts after Faith. Bzzt! Strike three... Boy, he's been out of touch with people too long; he'd have gotten hit if this had been two normal women, let alone these two.

--- And for the icing on Buffy's cake ---
Buffy and Angel are standing alone in the hallway of the police station.
Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."
Angel: "I didn't - I didn't think it was your business."
Buffy: "Not my business?"
Angel: "I needed more time with Faith. I'm not sure.."
Buffy: "You needed - Do you have any - idea what it was like for me to see you with her? That you went behind my back..."
Angel: "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. - That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other."
Buffy: "I came here because you were in danger."
Angel: "I'm in danger every day. You came because of Faith. You were looking for vengeance."
Buffy: "I have a right to it."
Angel: "Not in my city."
Buffy turns away for a moment then turns back.
Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. (Angel looks away from her but otherwise doesn't move) That I love. (Angel swallows hard) It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."
Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"
Buffy looks at him for a moment then goes to pick up her jacket, while Angel walks over to the wall and braces his hands against it.
Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."
--------------------------------

All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says.

Well, that was after the fact, and even then it's not all that he did or said.

Up there's the relevant parts of the transcript. What was that about selective amnesia, again? : popcorn:

[SoBlind]

ah I must agree D: I really hate the end of Sanctuary when she acts like that. I was so happy when Angel yelled at her haha.

me too! i thought she deserved everything he said to her. and i think it was time for someone to do it. in sunnydale shes always the leader, always has the last word. then she goes to LA trying to do the same with angel and he basically told her how far she can go with him..that this wasnt her business anymore. i loved the episode in general tho. one of my favourites. i really liked all the conversations between buffy and angel:
Buffy: "Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: *startled* "Do you care?"

also, in that episode, especially at the end, u can really see how they're both trying to pretend in front of the other one. i really liked that. for buffy it was her saying that what she had with riley was really new because she can "trust him" and she "knows him". please! she trusted angel more than anything. and at the same time angel said "[..]you don't know me anymore so don't come down here with your great new life[..]"

such a typical thing between ex's. pretending the other one doesnt know a thing about u anymore just to make it easier.

great episode. but yes, buffy was being a bitch

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, apparently on *one* of our parts:

--- Buffy's first sight of Angel and Faith ---
Angel: "Hey. Hey. Hey. Shh. Hey. (Leads her over to the day bed) Sit down. Shh. It's- it's okay. (Faith wraps her arms around Angel's neck, careful not to touch him with her bloody hands) Hey. It's gonna be okay. Okay? (Angel holds her) Shh. Alright."
Angel looks over as he hears someone come down the stairs. It's Buffy.
Angel gets up: "Buffy. (Buttoning his shirt) I didn't know you..."
Buffy: "What..."
Buffy looks from him to Faith still sitting on the day bed staring at her bloody hands, then back to Angel.
Buffy: "How... What are you doing?"
Angel: "She - we were attacked."
Buffy: "We? - You and..."
Angel: "Faith."
Buffy: "You and Faith."
Angel: "Oh, it's not what you think."
Buffy: "You actually think that I can form a thought right now? - Giles heard that - that she tried to kill you."
Angel: "That's true."
Buffy: "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
Angel: "Is that why you're here? To punish her?"
Buffy: "I was worried about you."


--- Oh, but, hey, there's a good and full explanation coming. Or, y'know - not ---
Faith: "Buffy. (Buffy looks at her) Oh, god."
Buffy walks closer to Faith who is cringing away form her.
Buffy: "You didn't think I was going to find you, did you?"
Angel: "Buffy, let's talk."
Buffy: "Oh, I don't think talk is in order right now."
Angel: "She needs help."
Buffy whips around to face Angel: "Help? Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: "Do you care?"
Angel: "She wants to change. She has a chance to..."
Buffy: "No. No chance. Jail."
Faith slowly gets up.
Angel: "You think that'll help?"
Faith: "Buffy... (Buffy whips around to face her) I'm sor..."
Buffy: "Apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
Faith quietly: "Go ahead."
Angel steps in front of Faith: "This is not gonna happen."
Buffy: "You're gonna stop me? Because you're gonna have to."
Faith shakes her head: "Don't - so this."
Angel: "Faith, go upstairs - now."
Buffy: "You think I'm gonna let her out of my sight?"
Angel: "Buffy, just back off."
Buffy: "There is no way I'm letting her out of my sight."
Angel: "Faith, go!"
Faith goes up the stairs and Buffy moves to stop her.

--- Leading up to Buffy's punching Angel when ---
Buffy: "Don't you move a..."
Angel catches her arm and she turns to punch him full in the face. She hauls back to hit him again, but Angel blocks her fist and hits her across the face in return.
Angel steps back as Buffy stares at him with a hand over her mouth.
Angel: "I'm sorry. - I'm sorry."
----------------------

So, let's see: Buffy hears from Giles that Faith (who already tried to kill Angel and all the rest of them on more than one occasion,) has made another attempt on Angel, so she goes down to L.A. to help. Notice that, unlike Angel in "Pangs", she didn't skulk around behind his back - she went straight to him. And what does she find but Faith in his arms. Bzzt! Strike one for the trust issue.

I'm sorry, but that's entirely Buffy's problem. She knows Angel well enough to know that he wouldn't be getting all cuddles with Faith if she wasn't in need, or at least wasn't trying to kill him. And it's not as if they were doing anything, her hands are quite clearly covered in blood. It's Buffy's jealousy that is rising - she remembers what Faith did with Riley, and now she sees her in Angel's arms. She refuses to even listen to him! She even knows that trying to imprison a PO'd Faith is not a good option.


"Do you know what she did to me?"
"Yes."
"Do you care?"
"She wants to change--" Bzzt! Strike two for "trust". Here's a tip, Angel: if the love of your life asks, "Do you care?" you say, "YES!" It doesn't matter what the frickin' subject is. Especially if she just caught you hugging the woman who tried to kill her, frame her, steal two of her boyfriends - oh, and her actual frickin' body!

Yeah, Angel is a bit clueless when it comes to that human interaction thing! And does nobody think it weird that Buffy just went waltzing into his place? Was their anyone around to let her in? This is just a random side question btw, not an argument.

At this point, Angel is trying to separate the two of them, but there's no way in hell it could look to Buffy like anything but taking Faith's side against her. And then he grabs Buffy when she starts after Faith. Bzzt! Strike three... Boy, he's been out of touch with people too long; he'd have gotten hit if this had been two normal women, let alone these two.

I totally agree that that is what it would look like to Buffy, and I can understand why she hit him, but it is her complete unwillingness to listen that I take issue with. Why, when Angel is the only person to ever make headway with Faith does Buffy find it so difficult to trust him, or even to see that he is not choosing anyone and is just trying to stop Faith from tipping over the edge again? I understand that you feel it's because Buffy has given Faith every chance and doesn't think she deserves it, but I still believe that she is jealous - especially when she sees Angel being nicer to Faith than he was last time they met (which is wonderfully ironic considering that was I Will Remember You).

--- And for the icing on Buffy's cake ---
Buffy and Angel are standing alone in the hallway of the police station.
Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."
Angel: "I didn't - I didn't think it was your business."
Buffy: "Not my business?"
Angel: "I needed more time with Faith. I'm not sure.."
Buffy: "You needed - Do you have any - idea what it was like for me to see you with her? That you went behind my back..."
Angel: "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. - That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other."
Buffy: "I came here because you were in danger."
Angel: "I'm in danger every day. You came because of Faith. You were looking for vengeance."
Buffy: "I have a right to it."
Angel: "Not in my city."
Buffy turns away for a moment then turns back.
Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. (Angel looks away from her but otherwise doesn't move) That I love. (Angel swallows hard) It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."
Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"
Buffy looks at him for a moment then goes to pick up her jacket, while Angel walks over to the wall and braces his hands against it.
Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."


But, this is exactly what I mean, Buffy is unjustly coming in, and thinking that it's her business. It really isn't. Fine, she wanted to protect Angel, but her primary motive for coming was vengance. Not so good. You would think at this point she would have realised that it's much more important to save Faith's soul than to extract personal revenge and push her over the edge. Angel has given her no reason not to trust him. I can understand the upset in the heat of the moment at the beginning, but seriously, the trust line was uncalled for. She did it to hurt Angel because of how she felt about Faith not him, and it was completely unfair.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

At this point, she still has no particular reason to believe that Faith's soul can be saved, or that Faith even really wants it saved. Buffy's entire experience with the girl has been disastrous; Faith lied and betrayed Buffy's trust repeatedly - and Buffy's supposed to just accept BAM! oh, she's changed, just like that? Get real.

[Bluebird]

I think, regardless if Buffy was right in this situation, it is written in such a way that you side with Angel cos it's his show. Buffy was right in coming after Faith but it was her stubborn attitude of I'm right, you're wrong towards Angel that made her come across as the bad guy here. We, as the Angel audience, have already seen Faith's breakdown in the alley and know she wants to change so when Buffy comes into the scene you end up siding with Angel.

[Lindsey McDonald]

At this point, she still has no particular reason to believe that Faith's soul can be saved, or that Faith even really wants it saved. Buffy's entire experience with the girl has been disastrous; Faith lied and betrayed Buffy's trust repeatedly - and Buffy's supposed to just accept BAM! oh, she's changed, just like that? Get real.

Perhaps not, but what's her solution? Cart her off to jail? There is no way that would have worked. It just made things worse last time.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

It usually makes things worse with real-life criminals, too, but the solution isn't to just let them go and hope they decide to do better, next time - they usually do, but it's better from the standpoint of being a better criminal. I notice that Faith's solution was also for her to go to jail, but while she always gets praised for it - rightly so, true, as it does show that she's serious - Buffy's wrong again for offering the same solution. Interesting, that.

[Lindsey McDonald]

It usually makes things worse with real-life criminals, too, but the solution isn't to just let them go and hope they decide to do better, next time - they usually do, but it's better from the standpoint of being a better criminal. I notice that Faith's solution was also for her to go to jail, but while she always gets praised for it - rightly so, true, as it does show that she's serious - Buffy's wrong again for offering the same solution. Interesting, that.

No, Buffy was wrong for trying to force Faith to Jail. That would have done no good whatsoever. It's not even as if they would have let her go wandering around LA either; last time Angel shackled her when it was necessary. A Slayer cannot be forced into the human legal system without their consent. If Buffy had forced Faith into jail, who knows what she could have done. Broken out and raised hell (not literally.......well, maybe literally), gone back after Buffy, even commited suicide. Not good in the cosmic balance of things. Angel understood this, and so did Buffy. She was just too swept up in the emotion to accept it. So, no: Buffy was wrong for offering a different solution.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

This gets further into the realm of BS all the time. Let's just cut to the chase: Buffy's wrong, period, about everything, all the time, and everyone else is right (even when they go out of their way to keep Buffy out of the loop.) End of story. Gotcha. I'll have to remember that in future.

[Lindsey McDonald]

This gets further into the realm of BS all the time. Let's just cut to the chase: Buffy's wrong, period, about everything, all the time, and everyone else is right (even when they go out of their way to keep Buffy out of the loop.) End of story. Gotcha. I'll have to remember that in future.

Not at all. Buffy is more often than not in the right, and Faith is more often than not in the wrong. I've never contested that fact. In this individual instance however, Buffy was in the wrong. Can you honestly say that Buffy's approach to this whole situation was right? Especially at the end when she had had time to catch up on the situation. Did Angel deserve her dig about Riley and trust? No.

[Angel's vision]

Rowan you did great, really really great, I buy that Angel should of said "yes I care!" That's the only problem I had though, with him, Buffy stormed in and saw them together Faith had blood on her hands and was obviously distressed, Buffy *ignored* this 'cause she was more interested in missreading the situation,
'cause Faith slept with Riley and stole her body and she heard Faith was trying to kill Angel again. She never attempted to allow Angel to help her one bit. He had to stop her from *ruining* Faith's chances of seeking redemption and responcibilty for her actions. Her vengeance was what Angel saw as a hinderance.

Buffy really had no right to go on and and on about how Angel proved she could not rely on him. Just because she saw he was trying to help Faith. She did not know when to step back. The only credit I'll give Buffy is she helped him fight off the Watcher's council. Even Wesley knew after Faith had tortured him that he needed to allow Angel to help her.

[andrewcutter]

idk, but buffy has always seemed like a bitch to men. Every season in almost every way. LIke i know this is off topic a bit but i hate how she treats faith all the time. Ok i understand faith hurt buffy but she has proved herself time and time again and the second buffy see a chance of faith going bad she attack, kindda like season 8 when she teleported and didnt even knew the story with faith working with giles. she didnt even give her the chance to say anything.

back on topic: at the end of the episode buffy just trying to assert her leadership in the bitchest way she can however angel is inchanrged in LA not buffy. That and they are two ex's going at it.

Like i said in the end buffy is just a bitch

[caitaintdead]

Are people jealous of Buffy? I don't understand why people think she's being a b*tch all the time.

[Angel's vision]

I wouldn't say Buffy was being a B*T*H, I would say she was reacting to her feelings at seeing Faith in blood and Angel comforting her, In her opinion and view point, Faith could easilly be duping him, and after what she put her through, she may aswell be repeating her M.O. In Buffy's mind. Never mind that she saw traces of Faith express discust at herself by yelling at Buffy in the Buffy ep leading up to this "Your discusting!" Buffy may have seen some incling she was scewed up, but her feelings regarding her stealing her body cloud judgement, I don't know what I would do if someone stole my body.
So after her little fight with Angel and Faith trying to appolgise she doesn't want to hear it, that Faith is trying to change, even after Angel says "We were attacked" and "She is at a crucial stage" She doesn't want to listen, my own personal opinion is when Buffy accuses Angel of falling for her "act" she is insulting his intellegence in discerning the situation, Buffy wanted vengeance and Angel was worried that was the last thing that was appropriette for Faith, Buffy doesn't know anything about turning around and changing, seeing people want to change, as far as she is concerned the world regarding this is black and white, you do wrong you get punished wether you want to change or not, or take the wrap or not, Angel is seeing grey areas, he has lived longer than Buffy, and can read people I would imagine better then her, cos he is over 200 years old, and could tell if people were lying pretty well. So Buffy was listening to her feelings and viewpoint rather than try thinking rationally, which was understandable to START WITH, my problem is afterwards when it is APPARENT Faith is trying to attone that I do not like,that Buffy wasn't allowing her to, as far as she was concerned Faith didn't deserve it, Angel has stated that you can't pick and choose who to save and who not to, you just save them if they want it.

[Exitmat]

So I just got done watching Sanctuary and at the end with the whole "get outta my town" thing that Angel says, first off completely inline Buffy had no right to go in there thinking she knows everything. But what she said after that.........O MAN! She picked the one thing that she knew would absolutely KILL Angel, "I have someone in my life now" and then brings up Riley??? Come on! That I feel is one of the lowest points in the Buffy charecter. Does anyone else agree with me? I mean she didn't do that to make a point, she didn't do it to help anyone, she just did it b/c she knew it would piss Angel off and hurt him and that's what she wanted to do b/c he did something she didn't agree with in helping Faith......grrrrr (arg)

I agree Angel was more in the right than Buffy was. But I still like the way Buffy was written in the episode, and I think it made sense.

For one, it's Angel's show, so it made sense to have the fans empathasize more with Angel in the Buffy/Angel debate over Faith. Also, Joss's shows tend to keep characters pretty much in the gray area, morality-wise. Showing that side of Buffy was easier to do on Angel's show than it was on Buffy's. Also, having her step into a quasi-villain role made her both more interesting as a character, as well as easier to understand why we never see her again in the series (i.e. why they broke up and kept it that way). It also showed us Angel's suffering over Buffy, rather than just having a character talk about it.

I think overall it was a great way to give Angel fans a glimpse into the Angel/Buffy relationship, and how/why Angel's relationship with Buffy has caused him so much pain. It also made for a great AngelBuffy moment on Angel's show--not something we got a lot of over the course of the series.

[caitaintdead]

"Randy Giles disagrees: I hate giving negative rep but I strongly disagree. Buffy's still a bitch, and you can't say Faith is a horrible person because she's had such a hard life it's pretty much made her insane. And there IS good inside her."

Ok, so I'm generally a pretty easy to get along with person. I don't want to get into fights on the Buffy-Boards. I'm not here to get into arguments, I'm here to share a mutual love for the show. This is why I chose to leave this discussion once it turned into an argument that I honestly just don't have the time or effort to keep up with.
On the other hand, I do feel a need to stick up for myself when people are leaving negative feedback on my posts talking about things they don't know anything about. I'm sorry to sound like I'm getting personal here, but you really know nothing about me or the life I've lead. My problem with Faith has always been focused around this instant blame of her problems on her having such a rough life.
How can Faith blame everything that she has done wrong on what has happened to her? That is absolutely ludicrous. You have no idea who anyone on these boards are, least of all me, and I don't appreciate you assuming that I don't know what it is like to have gone through terribly hard times.

[Buffanator]

Hmmmm.

Yeah, Buffy's a bitch a good deal of the time, but I conclude it's because she HAS to be, being The Slayer & all. Like FAITH couldn't be quite the bitch when she felt like it, eh?

I figure during IWRY, Buffy was just about to start her period. Who knows? :lmao:

But I think Angel handled it all very well. He was in LA trying to *help the helpless*; it was a very different gig than sidekicking for Buffy in Sunny-D. He had a very specific point in that Faith was on the edge & Buffy's being there could push her completely off the wrong end.

:thought: Come to think of it, I think that's what almost happened. I think Faith was considering getting the hell outta dodge ...When she went to the roof... before the bad guys flew in on the helicopter... before Buffy went up to the roof... perhaps Faith was considering just blowing town ... again. But it was the next few minutes - the fight with Buffy, then the fight against the bad guys - maybe that's when she finally decided not to run anymore. So it was just Faith's inner strength & Angel's belief in her that she COULD be good that brought her back & forced her to face what she'd done. Buffy's bitchiness is understandable from the BtVS point of view. But from the Ats point of view, she was simply just that: BITCHY. Heh. "Bitchy Buffy". :whistle:

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, obviously Faith's extraordinarily hard life was a catylist for her behaviour, but I agree that she is ultimately responsible for her actions. One could feasibly explain away her general attitude, but she was fully aware that the things she was doing were wrong. Just as Buffy's emotional response can feasibly explain away her initial reaction, but can't justify her spiteful remarks at the end. To say Faith's choices were completely outwith her control, however, is ludicrous.

Now, this is sort of (well, completely) off topic, but I've been wondering: is the word "bitch" considered really bad in the US? It's just the way that people seem somewhat more unwilling to say it in this topic than people would over here.

[littlewilly]

Faith has always had a tough life with no love, then Buffy rejected her and she understandably was
deprssed and pissed off. She just gave up caring, thats what happens. There is no right or wrong.

Ive noticed the Bitch thing too, like in this thread title, theres stars instead of i and c, like you may as
well just write the word, its kinda obvious anyway. In fact, we can use any language we want on here, cant we?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

...of course, I "gave up" and decided to go back to vocational school at 32 and I've been a professional programmer for the last 20 years. I've been treated for depression several times, I'm pissed off about something pretty much all the time, and I don't much give a damn about society's rules. But I don't stab my friends in the back, I don't steal from anyone who hasn't cheated or stolen from me first, and if I kill somebody, it'll be because they give me a reason, not to get a little attention or because somebody paid me to do it...

[Rowan Hawthorn]

...of course, I "gave up" and decided to go back to vocational school at 32 and I've been a professional programmer for the last 20 years. I've been treated for depression several times, I'm pissed off about something pretty much all the time, and I don't much give a damn about society's rules. But I don't stab my friends in the back, I don't steal from anyone who hasn't cheated or stolen from me first, and if I kill somebody, it'll be because they give me a reason, not to get a little attention or because somebody paid me to do it...

Five by Five agrees: Heh, ^ that really sounds like you're saying it must have been tough for him not to kill anyone!


Well, I have to admit, there are days when it requires a lot of effort!

[angeldork]

Plain and simple Buffy was upset cause Angel wasn't gonna do things her way. I think from the start she had to of known that in some way Angel was gonna do what he thought was best. But Angel was dead on in what her told Buffy. That they don't live in each others worlds any more, that she had no right to start demanding how things should be handled, more specifically the whole Faith situation. But there was definitely a moment there were Buffy was crossing the line in hopes of hurting Angel. Angel was completely justified in telling her everything that he had said. Buffy is more so someone who needs to be control who likes being in control.

[Darling]

I think a large part of Buffy's character is arrogance, so I wasn't particularly surprised by her outrageous bitchiness.
And, she was being a huge bitch.


agreeeed :nods:

in my opinion Buffy is selfish, arrogant and dont stop cryin´ of everything... lol a really pain in the ass. I love the show, but the character never surprise me with stupid lines like those. xD

[InsaneMystic]

Hmm it seems unfair to reduce Buffy to that (as in calling it "a large part" of her character), but I can't help but agree that she definitely is no stranger to arrogance, it's a trait that pops up every once in a while... like, indeed, in this episode.

[Primal Slayer]

agreeeed :nods:

in my opinion Buffy is selfish, arrogant and dont stop cryin´ of everything... lol a really pain in the ass. I love the show, but the character never surprise me with stupid lines like those. xD

lol you remind me of Cordelia right now...

[caritas08]

If I had to pick a side I would choose Angel's but Buffy's anger was completely understandable. If you watch the This Year's Girl,Who Are You/Five by Five, Sanctuary crossover back to back it's pretty horrible what Faith tried to do to Buffy (one could argue even worse than what she did to Wes). If Faith had hurt Conner or Darla or somebody Angel loved he might not be so willing to forgive her and give her a second chance. Yes Buffy was out of line, and the Riley comment was below the belt, but we cut slack to so many other characters Angel, Faith ect, that I don't see why people are unforgiving of Buffy for this particular time she was acting out of unfairly.

[lemst6]

Personally, I never liked the whole thing between Buffy and Angel and this is why. Buffy is selfish when it comes to Angel. She doesn't think about his feelings about anything and she acts spoiled, like Angel should give up everything for her. I like Angel because he thinks about the better well being of the world and takes the whole picture into play. (Unless we're talking about Darla) Buffy isn't a champion in my opinion like Angel is. She's self centered and the only reason she does things, is because she has to, because she's chosen. Angel does things, because he understands the bigger picture. And that scene where she says that to him about Riley, is just another one of Buffy's selfish acts to make her feel better about herself.

[MSchett]

Personally, I never liked the whole thing between Buffy and Angel and this is why. Buffy is selfish when it comes to Angel. She doesn't think about his feelings about anything and she acts spoiled, like Angel should give up everything for her. I like Angel because he thinks about the better well being of the world and takes the whole picture into play. (Unless we're talking about Darla) Buffy isn't a champion in my opinion like Angel is. She's self centered and the only reason she does things, is because she has to, because she's chosen. Angel does things, because he understands the bigger picture. And that scene where she says that to him about Riley, is just another one of Buffy's selfish acts to make her feel better about herself.

First of all Buffy can be selfish but dont say she isn't a champion she sent her true love to hell to save the world
Secondly what i think Buffy is really feeling right now is jealousy she saw him with Faith and it made her jealous obviously she wasnt over Angel by then...

Bottom line is jealousy makes people do terrible things.