Crosses And Vampires

[white avenger]

On at least two occasions in this season, Darla had a cross shoved in her face, and she just brushed it aside and continued her attack. Does anyone have any ideas Why she is seemingly immune to the cross' effects?

[Blondie Bear]

Maybe she just had the strength to shove past whatever repelling or pain or whatever the cross caused her? We've seen some vampires (Kralik, Spike) purposefully touch crosses and ignore (or enjoy) the pain, so it's not like there's a force field around them or something.

[Dancing man]

Yeah the Master hugged a cross in season 1.

[palabravampiress]

Crosses burn the skin, right? Like holy water does?

I'm assuming that means vamps can touch crosses, but that it's about as pleasant as you touching your heated up curling iron or lifting a tray out of the oven with your bare hands. If your survival or some other important thing depended on it, you could survive it. You wouldn't enjoy it. You wouldn't go out of your way to repeat the experience. But if necessary, you could do it. I think she same is true of vamps and crosses.

[Cangel]

Maybe it was her pregnancy? After all, she was already on edge pretty much.

I have another question though, I've been asking myself this for some time. Are all vampires reacting to crosses? And what exactly causes them to back away from them?
A cross is something very Catholic. And as I could still understand that vampires that used to be Christians back away, why would...let's say Jewish, or Moslem vampires? Would it have any effect? I always imagined their fear of crosses had something to do with being unwanted to God, so if crosses worked for all vampires, that would actually be very self-centered of Christians. Which also brings up the question, how do vamps react to other religious symbols, like that Jewish star for example?

[Blondie Bear]

I think it depends on the mythos. In Buffy, they stayed very away from the religion, so crosses seem to work because it's traditional. In other mythoi, it depends on the faith of the person holding the symbol, or all religious symbols work (there's one I read where the woman wears a silver sheep to represent the "Lamb of God" and manages to burn a vampire with it).

[randiann]

Does that mean vampires are quite possible afraid of dreidles (spelling??)?




No offense meant to anyone, I just like the song!

[palabravampiress]

Has anyone seen Polanski's vampire movie spoof? It has a couple of different titles, some of which are: The Fearless Vampire Hunters, Dance of the Vampires, and Excuse me, but Your Fangs Are in My Neck.

In that movie, a woman tries to ward off a Jewish vampire with a cross. He pretends to be repelled, then he stops, laughs, shakes his finger and says, "Wrong religion." He then attacks. lol. It was funny.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I have another question though, I've been asking myself this for some time. Are all vampires reacting to crosses? And what exactly causes them to back away from them?
A cross is something very Catholic.
Well, not exactly. A crucifix maybe, but the cross symbol itself goes back well before Catholicism. Or Christianity, or Judaism, for that matter.

And as I could still understand that vampires that used to be Christians back away, why would...let's say Jewish, or Moslem vampires? Would it have any effect? I always imagined their fear of crosses had something to do with being unwanted to God, so if crosses worked for all vampires, that would actually be very self-centered of Christians.

Shirley you jest... :whistle: Obviously, most vampire myths which grew up since, say, the Dark Ages, have assumed that vampires would fear the cross
for that very reason - and yes, it's quite a self-centered assumption, although understandable, I suppose, coming from an age where 1) history was perhaps not as well-known as it is today (and we only scratch the surface of what's been lost,) and 2) questioning the church's position on anything at all was a pretty good way of committing assisted suicide. Of course, since we do know that the cross predates Christianity, there are two ways to look at it: either pre-Christian vampires weren't effected by the cross, or the Christian trappings have nothing to do with it.

Which also brings up the question, how do vamps react to other religious symbols, like that Jewish star for example?

If I can trap one this weekend, I'll test it and let everyone know... :: vampire

In the meantime, I've seen some fictional universes in which the symbol itself was of no importance at all - it was the faith of the bearer which mattered (even the movie "Fright Night" touched on that part.) So that, in these fictional universes, no matter what religious symbol a person bore (assuming that it was related to a life-affirming or light religion as opposed to a dark faith,) as long as that person had faith, that symbol was just as effective as protection against evil as a crucifix in the hands of a devout Christian. Makes sense to me.

[Clem Rocks]

Isn't it anything Holy they don't like because they're unholy? Crosses, Holy Water etc

[RogueHunter]

God I feel old. Didn't anyone ever watch Fright Night?

Standard vampire lore says that it is the faith of the person holding the holy item that repels the vampire, although i have it on good authority that a copy of dianetics will have no affect.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

God I feel old. Didn't anyone ever watch Fright Night?

Yeah, I mentioned it a couple of posts back...

Standard vampire lore says that it is the faith of the person holding the holy item that repels the vampire

Which "standard vampire lore" would that be? Eastern European, Western European, Chinese, Malaysian...?

There really isn't any such thing in real-world mythology. "Hollywood tradition" is about as close as it gets to a standard mythology, and even there the lore varies drastically.

[RogueHunter]

I mean Vampire lore in entertainment. Plot devices from books, to movies and even comics. I really need to stop using quick replies so I can add my sarcastic smilies.
We could really use an animated Chris Sarandan GIF that says "You haff to have Faiff for vat to work on me Mithter Vinthent!!"

There was once an X-Men comic where Dracula tried to make Storm his hoochie momma and Kitty Pryde chased him off with a Star of David.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I saw a comic once where some shell-shocked street person used a trash can lid(!) as a sacred object to ward off a vampire. See, he had faith...

[RogueHunter]

Leave George Michael out of this.

[Chocolate-Drop]

I don't know about all this stuff about other religious symbols affecting vampires and stuff, but I think the concept of the original question is rather stupid.

If someone came at you brandishing hot curling tongs in your face, what would you do?? You'd use the almighty supernatural power within to avoid it. Or in other words, you'd simply swat it away from your face.

So, no immunity, no supernatural power needed. A cross gets thrust into her face, she uses her common sense and average reactions to push the threat away. So complex.

[RogueHunter]

You're in a Buffy forum talking about vampires on a show that ended years ago and you're calling a topic stupid?

[Chocolate-Drop]

You're in a Buffy forum talking about vampires on a show that ended years ago and you're calling a topic stupid?

I don't quite understand what you're insinuating by that- to me, it sounds very much like you're saying that I can't say if I think something on this is stupid because the idea of me 'on a Buffy forum talking about vampires on a show that ended years ago' is stupid in itself. Which begs the question- why are you here then?

[RogueHunter]

Because i keep in context that we discuss ideas put forth about fictional vampires on a fictional show in fictional scenario. Its a fantasy show which requires suspension of disbelief of rational thinking. if a member finds something curious or inconsistent about a scenario presented, it is legitimate. It doesn't deserve to be called stupid simply because the entire show is implausible.

[white avenger]

[QUOTE=Chocolate-Drop;512208]I don't know about all this stuff about other religious symbols affecting vampires and stuff, but I think the concept of the original question is rather stupid.


If the subject of this thread doesn't interest you, feel free to ignore it and find something more intellectually stimulating to comment on. As for the rest of us, if we decide to discuss this "stupid" question, that really should not be of any concern to you whatsoever.

[Kana]

Going back to the original question, Darla was physically adept enough to quickly knock it out of Cordy hand. Angel was able to do the same thing with Kate.

[Crazy Flakes]

I'm assuming that means vamps can touch crosses, but that it's about as pleasant as you touching your heated up curling iron or lifting a tray out of the oven with your bare hands.

Well, I suppose it'd be a little different than this. A vampire could probably heal from a cross' burns within, what, a couple of hours? But that doesn't mean the burning thing doesn't justify their fear of holy objects...I mean, in the time before it heals up, it'd hurt!

But yeah, I think she just swatted it away knowing that the burn would heal pretty soon after. Besides, it wasn't a huge cross, like the one Spike leaned over or the one The Master had; it wasn't going turn her into a giant, third-degree burn.

[ILLYRIAN]

And what if the cross wasn't put together by an official of the church?
I could put two sticks together but would they cause the same reaction?

And I know as a truth that the show was based on fact !!

(Alright, the fact is, that Joss Whedon wrote it.)
Not going to say that vampires are a fact though

[Rowan Hawthorn]

And what if the cross wasn't put together by an official of the church?
I could put two sticks together but would they cause the same reaction?

They have in other works (see, frex, Hammer's 1958 "Horror of Dracula", in which Peter Cushing's van Helsing uses two candlesticks crossed to repel Christopher Lee's Dracula.) The bottom line is that every author - if they give any real serious thought to the question at all - sets up different parameters as to how his/her vampires are affected by what objects. Even real-world mythologies don't agree.

[white avenger]

And what if the cross wasn't put together by an official of the church?
I could put two sticks together but would they cause the same reaction?

And I know as a truth that the show was based on fact !!

(Alright, the fact is, that Joss Whedon wrote it.)
Not going to say that vampires are a fact though


The majority, if not all, of the crosses Robin Wood used to line the walls of his "work room" garage in "Lies My Parents Told Me" were quite obviously just pieces of wood stuck together, and one of them managed to burn Spike's face, so there is some validity to the point that it depends more on the belief of the user than the object itself, but wasn't there a scene somewhere in Season 2 where Willow used a cross to repel Angelus? Or maybe it was someone else using a cross to rescue Willow FROM Angelus.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

That was Xander, in... was it "Innocence"? Or "Revelations"? I'd have to check now, but it's where they first discovered that Angel was now Angelus.

[InsaneMystic]

Has anyone seen Polanski's vampire movie spoof? It has a couple of different titles, some of which are: The Fearless Vampire Hunters, Dance of the Vampires, and Excuse me, but Your Fangs Are in My Neck.

In that movie, a woman tries to ward off a Jewish vampire with a cross. He pretends to be repelled, then he stops, laughs, shakes his finger and says, "Wrong religion." He then attacks. lol. It was funny.
Of course I know that classic moment. Actually, I named that movie my favorite vamp movie in the according thread.
However, that line in the dialogue got messed up in German dubbing (ah... if I had a cent for everytime I say that on this board...) so I didn't get the joke of the scene until I much later on got to watch the scene in the undubbed original. Well, I guess (for obvious real-world reasons) reference to Jewish vampires was deemed too thin ice to be used in the German version of the film, back then...


They have in other works (see, frex, Hammer's 1958 "Horror of Dracula", in which Peter Cushing's van Helsing uses two candlesticks crossed to repel Christopher Lee's Dracula.) The bottom line is that every author - if they give any real serious thought to the question at all - sets up different parameters as to how his/her vampires are affected by what objects. Even real-world mythologies don't agree.
The above-mentioned Polanski movie has a scene where two large swords ripped from a castle wall and put cross-shaped on top of each other block off a passage for a ballroom full of angry vampires... though that only works for a couple of seconds, barely long enough to make our heroes escape outside.


wasn't there a scene somewhere in Season 2 where Willow used a cross to repel Angelus? Or maybe it was someone else using a cross to rescue Willow FROM Angelus.
There definitely was a scene (though I'd have to rewatch my tapes to name the ep, I'm currently in early S2) where Willow hung up a crucifix in her room to revoke Angel(us)'s welcome, hiding it behind the window curtains so her Dad wouldn't see it. (The dialogue in the German version retranslates as something along the lines of "Ira Rosenberg's only daughter pinning up crucifixes? I'd be in deep trouble...").

[white avenger]

I saw a comic once where some shell-shocked street person used a trash can lid(!) as a sacred object to ward off a vampire. See, he had faith...


Remember the original "Dusk Til Dawn," where the no longer faithful ex-minister blessed tap water and made it holy so that the vampire fighters could load up their Super Soakers? It might not be faith, but it's surely suspension of disbelief.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

And a short story I read once where a priest, locked in the basement by a vampire, held off urinating until the vampire was returning, then blessed his - er - fount and sprinkled...

Edit:

And a short story I read once where a priest, locked in the basement by a vampire, held off urinating until the vampire was returning, then blessed his - er - fount and sprinkled...

InsaneMystic agrees: PLEASE tell me you just made that up! ROFLMAO

LOL! I really wish I could, but no, it's a real story. Hang on a second...

*looks through bookshelf*

...well, hell, I could have sworn it was in one of the two books I picked up at a used bookstore in Florida last year, but of course not. If I can find it, I'll post the title and author (if I can remember, that is.)

[Buffanator]

It is strange that a cross would even bother a vampire. But I can see why (religiously speaking) - but in Whedonverse religion is a damned subject (heh! pun!). However, esp. in the early seasons, Buffy was almost always seen wearing a cross. So apparently, yeah, it had some pretty wicked effect on vamps.

As far as Darla (or Angelus) swatting the cross away, or the Master hugging up on one (& Spike as well) - apparently it doesn't KILL a vamp. Just hurts them. I think the Master was just practically immune to it; he'd been around so long he no longer gave a damn about a cross. But Darla & Angel (or rather, Angelus) - they were just such bad-asses, so wicked, that they were willing to risk any pain & continue fighting - partially because they enjoyed it (the fighting I mean).

What I'VE always wondered is: WHY would a "wooden stake" through the heart KILL a vamp? I mean, their HEART doesn't even beat. And why does it have to be a WOODEN stake? Why not a steel stake? Or a very sharp, pointy letter opener? I can see where beheading would kill them. Or fire. But the sun? or a stake? Nah, I don't get it. But I'm willing to forego any understanding to enjoy the entertainment value. ;)

[InsaneMystic]

As far as Darla (or Angelus) swatting the cross away, or the Master hugging up on one (& Spike as well) - apparently it doesn't KILL a vamp. Just hurts them. I think the Master was just practically immune to it; he'd been around so long he no longer gave a damn about a cross. But Darla & Angel (or rather, Angelus) - they were just such bad-asses, so wicked, that they were willing to risk any pain & continue fighting - partially because they enjoyed it (the fighting I mean).
Well, listening to his monologue in that scene, even the Master wasn't immune to the effect, talking about the unease "two beams of wood in a certain arrangement" caused him or something like that (I seem to remember he even did "sizzle" a bit). He was just strong and experienced enough to overcome both unease and pain by mental discipline, so I guess the above comparison (was it by palabra?) still stands that a vamp can touch a cross, just as a human can take out a metal cake form out of the oven with his bare hands, it's just awfully uncomfortable to say the least and thus nothing they would ever think of doing under normal circumstances.


What I'VE always wondered is: WHY would a "wooden stake" through the heart KILL a vamp? I mean, their HEART doesn't even beat. And why does it have to be a WOODEN stake? Why not a steel stake? Or a very sharp, pointy letter opener? I can see where beheading would kill them. Or fire. But the sun? or a stake? Nah, I don't get it. But I'm willing to forego any understanding to enjoy the entertainment value. ;)
Ok, time for smartass blah from Mysti. :)

The idea behind the stake is: Vampires are unnatural, so tying them back into the natural life cycle of things destroys them. Staking as we see it in Buffy is way easier than the original concept, it's meant to be driving a wooden stake through the heart, coming out in the back and pinning the vampire to living soil, thus mimicking a naturally growing tree. Actually, several vampire lore versions make even this rather more complicated ritual out to not destroying a vampire, but merely forcing him into hibernation/dormancy. The full destruction then comes only by staking to the ground, beheading, filling the mouth with consecrated oblates and finally burning. (Imagine how tedious the show would have become if they had used that version...)

As with the sun, well, it's a symbol of life power and God, so it's been rated as uneasing/uncomfortable to vampires pretty much from the beginning of the legend. However, the concept of the sun outright destroying vamps by burning them to ashes is a rather recent addition to vamp lore. To my knowledge, this idea is used for the very first time in Murnau's "Nosferatu" of 1922, it simply became immediately so popular that a reversion to the original "mere discomfort" concept, e.g. in "Bram Stoker's Dracula" of '92, nowadays strikes us as odd, to say the least.

[InsaneMystic]

Originally Posted by white avenger
wasn't there a scene somewhere in Season 2 where Willow used a cross to repel Angelus? Or maybe it was someone else using a cross to rescue Willow FROM Angelus.
There definitely was a scene (though I'd have to rewatch my tapes to name the ep, I'm currently in early S2) where Willow hung up a crucifix in her room to revoke Angel(us)'s welcome, hiding it behind the window curtains so her Dad wouldn't see it. (The dialogue in the German version retranslates as something along the lines of "Ira Rosenberg's only daughter pinning up crucifixes? I'd be in deep trouble...").
I feel so dumb right now... Scene I meant was from "Passion". Of all the episodes... I really should have known it. :(

However, I also found the scene (I guess) WA was referring to, it's in the teaser of "Killed by Death". Unfortunately, it's not conclusive proof - yes, Willow is holding Angelus at bay with a cross, but Cordy is standing right next to her, also holding a cross... so we can't say if Willow alone would have "done the trick".

[palabravampiress]

^ I don't know whether or not I think the faith of the wearer is an issue. I imagine that any religiously charged symbol would do in a pinch. I think it has more to do with collective faith placed in a symbol by humanity than it does with the the individual faith of the bearer. That would explain why crosses work for any of the scoobies, none of whom are particularly religious (with the exception of Willow, who may come from a Jewish family, but who clearly chose Wicca as her religion). Honestly, the bad guys seem a lot more religiously inclined in Buffy than do the good guys. On the evil side, we've got holy crusaders, monks, bringers, the House of Aurelius, gods, Caleb, etc. On the good side we have... well, Riley goes to church. Really, the evil folks are way more into religion and ritual than are the scoobies. Since religious symbols still ward off vamps even when used by non-religious type white hats, I think the idea here is that so many people put their faith and positive energy toward the religion that is symbolized by a cross that that symbol has taken on a kind of power of its own -- one that manifests itself regardless of the faith of either the wearer or the vamp who is being warded off.

According to this theory, in which an object takes on the power that it is widely or largely believed to have, I think a Star of David or a Crescent Moon would probably work just as well. I'm not so sure whether or not other religious symbols would work, as the criteria here seem to be based on number of followers as well as pretty unanimous agreement of the importance of that symbol. Maybe in a Hindu context, the aum would work? The lotus? Or in a Buddhist context, maybe the dharma wheel or the bodhi tree would work? I don't know. I think it is very likely that there are enough Christian faithful in SoCal (or maybe in the world) to keep the cross charged with anti-evil energy. But if Buffy were guarding a Hellmouth in, say, Mecca, I think maybe a crescent moon would be more effective (not that I think there'd be a Hellmouth in Mecca; it's kinda high profile). I think a cross will work pretty much anywhere, but I think a lot of other symbols would work, too, and that they'd be more easily obtainable (and more likely to be used) in different regions, eras, and contexts. An ancient Egyptian slayer, for example, may have used an ankh, but probably wouldn't have used a cross. Who knows? Maybe some ancient or outdated symbols would still work, but nobody remembers or knows enough about them to even think to try it.

Of course, this is all speculation on my part. Alternatively, I imagine that it is possible that a bunch of early Christian monks got together and used some ancient magics to bless the symbol of their religion so that it could ward off vampires. It sounds like a very Buffyverse monk-ish thing to do.

[Joyce Summers]

Elaborating on what you said Palabra, the cross is most famously known for being Christian but is has been used as a sign of protection in many other religions long before it became a symbol of Christianity. The faith of the Ancient Romans used it to ward off evil, pagan rites have including the cross for millennia as protection, I think it is incorporated into one of the symbols of Hindu, Ancient Egyptians had the Ankh- a form of cross- to protect loved ones in the afterlife and the list goes on. It's just it's most famously linked to Jesus so people automatically take it as a link to Christianity. But the cross has been used across the globe, across the centuries, across religions so maybe it's repellent against vampires isn't based on the Christian Faith at all but rather it's collective power as a protective symbol.


As for the hypothesis of being able to use other religious symbols, I know Buffy novels are not always considered canon but in Go Ask Malice- the book that is essentially meant to be Faith's diary- on a self-test Faith writes that a cross or any other religious symbol can ward off a vampire, so I think you maybe entirely correct in theory there.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

And a short story I read once where a priest, locked in the basement by a vampire, held off urinating until the vampire was returning, then blessed his - er - fount and sprinkled...

Originally Posted by InsaneMystic
InsaneMystic agrees: PLEASE tell me you just made that up! ROFLMAO

LOL! I really wish I could, but no, it's a real story. Hang on a second...

*looks through bookshelf*

...well, hell, I could have sworn it was in one of the two books I picked up at a used bookstore in Florida last year, but of course not. If I can find it, I'll post the title and author (if I can remember, that is.)

Okay, found it: "Aqua Sancta" by Edward Bryant. I have it in a collection called "100 Vicious Little Vampire Stories" that I found at Barnes & Noble. It has a few pretty good stories, and a few that really - er - suck...