Destiny

[white avenger]

In this episode, Angel comments on how much more easily and quickly Spike adjusts to having a soul than he himself did. Do you think that that was primarily because Spike had only the deaths of his victims to atone (evil, granted, but arguably more or less natural for a vampire), whereas Angel had to also to remember the torture and degradation of his victims (most vampires don't appear to "play with their food" as much as feed, kill, and walk away happy); or because Spike had someone (Buffy) to care for and encourage him through the transition from soulless to ensouled, then convince him that he actually had a purpose in the world and that having the soul was a good thing?

[Angel's vision]

I think it is the mannor in which they had the soul restored. Angel had his restored against the demon inside him's will,and had to remember like you said the torture and degradation, and he also said he did it with a song in his heart, he made what he did an art, whereas Spike just did what he did because he was evil and had less inclination to make his acts into some kind of pleasure seeking mission like Angelus.
He also choose to retain his human feelings whereas Angelus went as far away from any human feeling he may of had left or retained as he could.
Spike also had Buffy as you said during the transition from souless to ensouled, Angel had to spend 150 odd years dealing with the enormity of who he was and what he had become-a monster and he had to do it alone for that long a time, the greater the acts of depravity as in his case the greater the guilt.

I read somewhere recently might of been here, that he spent the time focasing too much on his guilt and what a monster he was and Spike took it to the other extreme and seperated himself from who he was, thus focasing on who he was now. Would explain why he won the fight, he was more focased on the now whereas Angel had his guilt issues plus his W&H guilt and low esteem issues that where the primary focas so that he felt unworthy even if he wanted it as bad.

[Hello Cutie]

I dunno, I think alot of it has to do with the people they were. I mean, everyone reacts to different things in different ways, so while Angel seems to feel the need to brood and let himself be haunted by the deaths he's caused, Spike doesn't.
I can see that the way they killed could have alot to do with it, as Angel does have to come to terms with much more than Spike- Spike killed while Angel tortured and destroyed before he killed, so granted, Angel has alot more on his concience than Spike would. And I guess the fact that Spike chose to regain his soul has a big part of his acceptance as well- he understood what he was before he even regained it- when Joyce died, he actually said 'I know I'm a monster, but she treated me like a man' [or words to that effect], which shows some sort of acceptance and repentance of what he's done, even though he doesn't have a soul to really feel remorse yet.

But, I think those are just contributing factors to two completely different people's acceptances of a situation. Angel feels like he needs to brood and think about everything and let himself be tortured by it to truely repent, while Spike's reaction is 'okay I did these things, it's disgusting and wrong and I am repentant for it, but I can't live my life in the past, reliving this events in my mind- I need to look to the future and live each day and maybe by doing good I'll make up in some part for the wrong I did.'

[Dlou444]

This is why I love Spike.
Even evil, he seemed to love his life, and not enough to ever be TOO evil. He came off as selfish, but never really cruel.

And he was so good at realizing that he couldn't change the past so there was no need to really dwell on it. And the best way to change things is to change his actions.

Angel ALWAYS bugs me with his brooding. I mean, he's doing great. He's trying and making a difference, but he doesn't seem to give a crap. There's no need to also sit and dwell on things he can't change.

Even Buffy ticked me off when she wanted to turn herself in for accidently "killing" what's-her-face (gimme a break, it's 2:30 am) Even if she HAD been at fault, it's not like she woke up and hunted down the girl and killed her. It's not even like she intentionally pushed her away. But, she was willing to toss herself in jail, perhaps forever since she couldn't "explain" the event, never caring who was going to get hurt for it just because.
I'm not all for people running from the police, but since she's a super hero, I'll give her a pass. It seems silly to ignore possible apocalypses for an accident.

Spike seems to be the ONLY sane one of the group...with maybe Cordy as a close 2nd. Faith was too far on the other side of not caring, even when she got better.

I think Spike having a nice healthy train of thought helped him recover from the soul. And he WASN'T as evil as Angelus.
I think the fighting FOR the soul helped too. Angel was kind of stuck for a long time. All his "friends" didn't want him. He couldn't go back to being normal. He was stuck and miserable.
Spike got to know this was what he wanted. He knew HIS "support system" would be even MORE willing to embrace him if he did it.
I've equated to the same as getting out of a bad marriage. Angel's like the dejected spouse who comes home from work to find his wife gone, the house empty and divorce papers sitting on the toilet. And then spends the next 20 years feeling like a victim and dwelling on every time they forgot to take out the trash wondering if THAT is what made his wife leave.

Spike got lucky enough to be more like the "battered wife" who decides they've taken enough abuse, found a job in another city and, one day, strikes out on their own knowing full well that their friends and family are cheering them on every step of the way.

[Tranquillity]

Past and Future
Angel is fixated on the past, with what he did and then later, on balancing the scales and making amends for his past actions. The burden of guilt is his motivator.
Spike is focused on the future. It doesn't matter how you start out, he tells Dawn; it's how you finish up, what you do in the now that matters. The past is done, nothing he does can change what he did so why worry about it. The best he can do is try to be a better person in the present.

[Vampmogs]

I can see that the way they killed could have alot to do with it, as Angel does have to come to terms with much more than Spike- Spike killed while Angel tortured and destroyed before he killed, so granted, Angel has alot more on his concience than Spike would.

I disagree. Did we all forgot how Spike got his name in the first place, "by torturing his victims with railroad spikes"? Or what he tells Buffy in 'Never Leave Me' how he knows how to drink enough from a girl so that she'll still cry, "because it's no fun if they don't cry (Spike)" Spike tortured many people, he tells Buffy she hasn't even seen the worst of him. And Wesley states in Ats s5 that Spike's one of the worst vampires on record, second only to Angelus.

Lets not also forget how Wood describes what Spike did to his mother, "when you toyed with her, when you beat the life out of her, when you snapped her neck!" And he's right, Spike could have fought to the death with Nikki in Central Park but he didn't, he said that "he didn't want the fun to end so soon." He enjoyed playing and toying with people before he killed them too.

while Spike's reaction is 'okay I did these things, it's disgusting and wrong and I am repentant for it, but I can't live my life in the past, reliving this events in my mind- I need to look to the future and live each day and maybe by doing good I'll make up in some part for the wrong I did.'

Well actually, Spike adopts Angel's approach by the end of 'Damage' when the vampire slayer Dana makes him feel guilty for all the things he did. At the start of that episode he said that Angel should "let it go" and he had no sympathy for Dana's situation. But Dana made him face up to his responsibility and face some hard facts, and he and Angel have an understanding at the end of that episode in the hospital room.

Angel didn't want to atone. It took Buffy to convince Angel.

Kana raised a good point on another forum. It didn't take Buffy to want to change, Angel had to have wanted to change on his own to even get up of his ass and go with Whistler to see Buffy. Lets also not forget that Angel didn't not want to atone, he just didn't think it was possible. He attempted to help Judy and the others in the Hyperion Hotel before they turned on him, and he did small things like 'rescuing puppies' which sounds lame, but hey, he was helping people if he could.

Spike wanted to be a man, a good man.

Spike had no idea what he was getting into though. He states it himself in 'Beneath You' that "Angel should have warned him" what getting a soul actually meant. To him it was a title, something to make Buffy love him, he didn't actually understand the effect it would have on him. Spike *never* expressed remorse for any of his crimes as a soulless vampire, there's not one single quote or scene to support it. He was fine with being evil, but he knew Buffy would never love him if he was, so he went to get his soul, because she was able to love Angel. He didn't understand what having a soul would mean, he says in 'Never Leave Me' he had forgotten, "it had been such a long time since he (I) had one."


Even evil, he seemed to love his life, and not enough to ever be TOO evil. He came off as selfish, but never really cruel.

Again, killing the small girl in the coal bin, knowing how to drink girls "Dawn's age" just enough so they'd still cry when he did horrible things to them because to him it was more "fun" and of course, using railroad Spikes to torture people. He was very cruel!

And he was so good at realizing that he couldn't change the past so there was no need to really dwell on it. And the best way to change things is to change his actions.

Spike was pretty bad in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' when he says he "doesn't give a piss" about the fact he killed Nikki Wood. Slayer or not, she was a single mother, a good woman, as equally innocent and deserving of life as Buffy, he should "give a piss."

Angel ALWAYS bugs me with his brooding. I mean, he's doing great. He's trying and making a difference, but he doesn't seem to give a crap. There's no need to also sit and dwell on things he can't change.

He doesn't sit and dwell on those things, like you said he's out there making a difference. But he doesn't want to forget either, he doesn't want to, as Spike put it, "let go." And he shouldn't, his victims deserve better than that.

Spike seems to be the ONLY sane one of the group...with maybe Cordy as a close 2nd. Faith was too far on the other side of not caring, even when she got better.

As I said above, Spike learns to reflect on it like Angel does in the episode 'Damage.' He realises he was being too cavalier about the lives he ruined, it just took a slayer to beat this out of him.

And really, Spike had it easier than Angel. Spike had people like Buffy to help him a lot sooner after getting his soul than Angel. No one can blame Angel for sitting on his arse for 20 years until he saw Buffy and wanted to change. Spike could have ended up just the same. He was sitting on his arse in the school basment until Buffy told him to get out of the basment and "show her" that he had a soul.

[Dlou444]

Quote Vampmogs: Spike had no idea what he was getting into though. He states it himself in 'Beneath You' that "Angel should have warned him" what getting a soul actually meant. To him it was a title, something to make Buffy love him, he didn't actually understand the effect it would have on him. Spike *never* expressed remorse for any of his crimes as a soulless vampire, there's not one single quote or scene to support it. He was fine with being evil, but he knew Buffy would never love him if he was, so he went to get his soul, because she was able to love Angel. He didn't understand what having a soul would mean, he says in 'Never Leave Me' he had forgotten, "it had been such a long time since he (I) had one."


Again, killing the small girl in the coal bin, knowing how to drink girls "Dawn's age" just enough so they'd still cry when he did horrible things to them because to him it was more "fun" and of course, using railroad Spikes to torture people. He was very cruel!



Spike was pretty bad in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' when he says he "doesn't give a piss" about the fact he killed Nikki Wood. Slayer or not, she was a single mother, a good woman, as equally innocent and deserving of life as Buffy, he should "give a piss."



I never said Spike was a fluffy bunny. He was a VAMPIRE. Killing girls in coal bins, killing kids Dawn's age, killing slayers (who were out to kill him) not too crazy to think he'd do. It's not like Nikki was broadcasting the whole Single Mother thing. How would he know if she was a mother OR a good person, OR CARE? She existed to kill vampires, that would be enough for ME to kill her and maybe even make a sport of it. Well, if someone was put on this earth only to kill people like me, anyway.

As for the railroad spikes, I don't even give that much credence. Sure, it was in the books, but we didn't see any clippage of that. What we DID see is Angel's effect on Spike and ANGEL calling him Willy and making him mad and ANGEL telling him to get another name. Seems to me, he could have just as easily changed his name and claimed that was why. It's not like Spike's not prone to lying to make himself look cooler when he's in a corner.....("Out For A Walk....Bitch) Personally, I've always found it EXTREMELY odd they never showed any railroad spike clips, if we were supposed to take it as true.

On the other hand, I'd pick a railroad spike through the head than watching a vampire torture and kill my babies in front of me any day.

Besides, we SEE Angelus's torture approach vs Spike's much more quick and to the point approach all through season 2. Spike LIKES the hunt, he enjoys it and wants to drag it out, but he IS hunting and has a point, other than just doing mean things like leaving pretty pictures he drew and killing Willow's goldfish to make sure every one is good and scared out of the pants.

No one said Spike was good and never hurt a soul. It's just that he wasn't like a kitten playing with a dying mouse. If I had a choice, I'd much rather Spike just fight with me and kill me, even if he said mean things like he wanted the fun to last, than be stalked and terrified by Angelus for weeks on end before he finally killed everyone I loved in front of me and then me.

[Vampmogs]

I never said Spike was a fluffy bunny. He was a VAMPIRE. Killing girls in coal bins, killing kids Dawn's age, killing slayers (who were out to kill him) not too crazy to think he'd do.

He didn't just kill them though. I think it's heavily implied he raped girl's Dawn's age when Spike says "do you have any idea what I've done to girls Dawn's age" and his comments about not drinking enough so they'll still cry because "it's not fun if they don't cry." I think it's heavily implied what it was.

It's not like Nikki was broadcasting the whole Single Mother thing. How would he know if she was a mother OR a good person, OR CARE? She existed to kill vampires, that would be enough for ME to kill her and maybe even make a sport of it. Well, if someone was put on this earth only to kill people like me, anyway.

Spike acted differently than other vampires. He can't even claim self defence when he hunted Nikki out and attempted to kill her.

As for the railroad spikes, I don't even give that much credence. Sure, it was in the books, but we didn't see any clippage of that.

In 'Fool For Love' one of the people being mean to Spike about his poetry says "I'd rather have a railroad Spike through my head than listen to that awful stuff!" That's an awfully specific thing for the writers to put in there don't ya think? I think it's meant to be implied that after becoming a vampire, Spike went and did just that.

There's also no reason for the books to be wrong, they knew enough about Angel to know about his tattoo on his back.

What we DID see is Angel's effect on Spike and ANGEL calling him Willy and making him mad and ANGEL telling him to get another name.

Which fits with the idea of him torturing those who humiliated him as a human. Angelus is humiliating Spike the same way those people did.

Seems to me, he could have just as easily changed his name and claimed that was why. It's not like Spike's not prone to lying to make himself look cooler when he's in a corner.....("Out For A Walk....Bitch) Personally, I've always found it EXTREMELY odd they never showed any railroad spike clips, if we were supposed to take it as true.

It was implied in 'Fool For Love' as I stated above, and there's no reason for it to be a lie, I don't think it was even intended to be a lie? Why would the writers even bother to make something up like that if there was no story behind it being a lie? I think it was more or less meant to be taken as fact, there doesn’t seem to be any reason for it not to be? If we started questioning that, where does it stop? We’d have to be questioning the validity of everything Giles ever looked up, which proved to be more or less always accurate.

On the other hand, I'd pick a railroad spike through the head than watching a vampire torture and kill my babies in front of me any day.

Ah Spike's not that different. Yes we saw Angelus and Darla kill Holtz's baby in front of his wife, but Spike also was willing to kill the girl in the coal bin in front of her parents, and her parents in front of that girl. He's very capable of being horribly cruel.

Remember that in 'In the Dark' Spike grins with delight at the idea of Marcus the vampire, and his particular horrid fascination with children. "You like children don't you Marcus (Spike)"

Besides, we SEE Angelus's torture approach vs Spike's much more quick and to the point approach all through season 2. Spike LIKES the hunt, he enjoys it and wants to drag it out, but he IS hunting and has a point, other than just doing mean things like leaving pretty pictures he drew and killing Willow's goldfish to make sure every one is good and scared out of the pants.

Like I said, Wes says Spike's second only to Angelus. Angel agrees and Spike doesn't deny this. Whilst he may not have been as sadistic as Angelus, he was still sadistic enough that he should have some serious problems with what he did, now he had a soul.

I mean I don’t think anyone can live up quite to Angelus sadism, but even getting close to that is pretty horrid.

No one said Spike was good and never hurt a soul. It's just that he wasn't like a kitten playing with a dying mouse. If I had a choice, I'd much rather Spike just fight with me and kill me, even if he said mean things like he wanted the fun to last, than be stalked and terrified by Angelus for weeks on end before he finally killed everyone I loved in front of me and then me.

At the end of the day I don't think Spike should care wether he 'tortures someone with railroad Spikes' or "uses their bones to bash their heads in" he should still feel pretty bad over the things he did. Yeah Angelus did more sadistic things, but one murder can leave someone feeling guilty for life. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of people saying Spike got over it because he didn't do as bad things as Angelus, even if they weren't as bad, they were still terrible. Even remembering finding enjoyment in the idea of a vampire who's basically a murderous paedophile, like Spike did with Marcus, should have driven Spike with guilt.

But it’s all pretty moot anyway, when Spike starts to share Angel’s way of thinking a lot more after ‘Damage.’ He basically says he didn’t give much thought about it, until Dana makes him face up to a few things.

[palabravampiress]

I'm not on board with the Spike was "better" than Angel thing. I think Vampmogs already argued that pretty well. I basically said the same thing in the Shanshu thread. I mean, Spike's supposed to be second only to Angelus, and yet his brood level is nowhere near. I'm going to guess that whatever miniscule difference there may be in the methods behind their murders, it's not enough to result in the huge difference between the manners in which they express guilt for those murders. They were both bad, scary monsters. I wouldn't want to run into either of them come dinnertime.

I think the difference has to do with prep time. Like others have said, Angel was just forced into a sudden, life altering change. With Dru leaving him, with the chip, and then with actually choosing and fighting to get the soul back, Spike had a lot more time to accept and come to terms with what he was doing. It hit him harder than he could ever have expected, hence the crazy-in-the-basement phase, but he still handled it better than Angel, and I think that's why.

Let's also consider the fact, here, that Spike has done a fair bit of atoning. I, personally, have always considered atonement to be part punishment, part right action, and part earnest reflection. Spike's been trying to get his actions on the side of right and doing selfless things since before the soul. To top it all off, he even went out in a fiery blaze whilst closing the Hellmouth and stopping an apocolypse. He's trying. And in a big way. Next, comes punishment: he's been tortured by a god and by the First evil. He's been triggered and used by the First. Dana got to him. And then, see above mentioned fiery blaze. Had to have the major ouchies attached to that one. Plus, there was ghost!Spike, which was no picnic. Then there's the last bit, earnest reflection, which he started to some extent even before the soul and in the basement and then picked up again after Dana. I think the difference here between Spike's earnest reflection and Angel's brooding is that Spike puts it aside to do what needs to be done to fight the good fight in the here-and-now, whereas Angel wears his on his sleeve 24/7 (except, apparently, while he's boffing Buffy). I think that, to some extent, Spike lets himself see these steps as progress, whereas Angel does not.

How much of this do we think has to do with Angel's curse? If Angel has a moment of true happiness, then he reverts to evil Angelus, right? Well, might that have something to do with his brooding? Might it be part of the curse, like a failsafe that the gypsies threw in to make sure he'd never revert except under the most extreme circumstances? I mean, if Angel ever got to feel truly redeemed, I imagine that would be a shiny, happy moment for him. Maybe his brooding is a self-defense mechanism, maybe even a self-conscious one, that guards against bringing Angelus back. I, personally, think that 500 years in Hell ought to do the trick, but even after that plus all of his heroic acts, Angel won't let himself feel redeemed. There's got to be a reason for that. Maybe it's a sense of self-preservation.

Then again, it could be as simple as Angel being happy in his depression. Maybe Angel doesn't want redemption. Maybe he likes his broody guy self-image, whereas Spike, ever the proactive one and ever the mold-breaker, is just more open to forward momentum.

[Dlou444]

I don't know if it's the chopping up of posts or that I'm usually posting in the middle of the night, but you don't seem to be seeing what I'm saying.

It's NOT that I think Spike was somehow a "good" vampire, thus had nothing to feel guilty for. I AM saying that his MOTIVES for his actions were different from Angelus's. And it's motives and the situations surrounding the event that drive guilt.

Where Angel took particular delight in finding new ways to happen upon people and torture them (Holtz, Drusilla, all the people in Amends) and it was all shown, Spike didn't have that. Sure, he did mean things. As I said, he's not a fluffy bunny. Yes, he killed the girl in the coal bin. Yes, he also scared her. And I'm not saying it's NICE to find small children cowering in coal bins and kill them. But, he never said the MOTIVE was the kill the family while the little girl watched and then kill her. He was eating. That was just an extra for him. Heck, he had no soul, he wasn't TRYING to be good. He was bad. Angelus, however, would have done it on PURPOSE.
He liked to kill Slayers. Yes. On the other hand, technically, they WERE out to kill him. He wasn't hunting down small boys with red hair. And, since he only killed two in all those years, we can't really say he was "hunting" them, just making a point to go after them when he came upon them. Which would technically make him a target at that point. I also wouldn't blame a bear for mauling a hunter. Could be a nice hunter. Could have a family, could be a single Dad. Doesn't much matter to the bear, nor does it make the bear extra evil for mauling him.

These things play into how guilty you feel in the end. Serial killers kill people. So, do people who happen upon an intruder in their home. So do drunk drivers and teenagers driving too fast while trying to text message. Battered wives kill husbands. Greedy wives kill husbands for life insurance. All involve people dying, but there are varying degrees of "evil".

Even if we say no other vampire, the Master, the Uber Vamps none of them were 2nd to Angelus, just Spike, he's still 2nd. I will say he probably drove some railroad spikes through those people who made fun of him. On the other hand, it could easily be said (by Spike...and by me the first time I saw it and just wanted to give him a hug) that they DID, literally, ask for it. THAT plays into guilt. It's tons easier to justify revenge for people who have done you wrong than torturing random people you don't know for fun.

All Spike's stories, there is something clear that's driving him. Saving Dru, not ending the world, making his place so that he's not in Angel's shadow, being in love with Buffy. He doesn't stop and think when he's being bad to ponder how his victims FEEL....no. But, he was darn ticked with Angelus for playing with Buffy and making her miserable instead of just killing her and getting it over with. He may like the hunt and the kill, and he may want to savor it. But, that's different from Angelus dragging this out all season making sure everyone was scared and miserable. He had a beef...he went to the source and dealt with it.
Angel had to deal with the fact that, as Angelus, he'd go out of his way to make sure everyone was miserable and for a LONG TIME. In many case, just being mean. Like, not killing Holtz and instead making him live because that was more cruel.

All I'm saying is that Spike was mostly, "Here's a problem, let's deal with it" Angelus was more "Here's a day, let's make sure someone is miserable" which I think plays into how the guilt feels later.
And I think the fighting FOR the soul helped resolve a lot of the extra guilt. Whatever his reasons for doing it, he didn't give up. Just like losing weight to catch the eye of someone may start OUT as being for the "wrong reason", in the end, if you lose the weight and you feel better and can do more things it doesn't take away from the success of doing it. It's easier to look past the things he didn't have "a good reason" for by saying, "Well, I MADE myself better!" and paid dearly to do it.

As I said....
I've equated to the same as getting out of a bad marriage. Angel's like the dejected spouse who comes home from work to find his wife gone, the house empty and divorce papers sitting on the toilet. And then spends the next 20 years feeling like a victim and dwelling on every time they forgot to take out the trash wondering if THAT is what made his wife leave.

Spike got lucky enough to be more like the "battered wife" who decides they've taken enough abuse, found a job in another city and, one day, strikes out on their own knowing full well that their friends and family are cheering them on every step of the way.

[Kana]

I'm pretty 'meh' on the whole vampire responsibility thing depending on many factors but I wont go into that here.

This aside, there seems to be a natural reaction to individuals who killed without remorse for many years suddenly getting a conscience. Darla, Angel and Spike have all felt guilt for past actions and their mental state has suffered as a result. Angel spent almost a century coming to terms with what he's done and finally decided to to help people, whereas Spike found his purpose a lot more quickly. Spike and Darla had a lot more support than Angel did when they got their souls back, but is that all it is?

Aside from Darla's identity crisis, she has taken responsibility for her actions. When it is questioned whether it was really the same Darla, Angel seemed to think it was. Darla rarely denied her past identity as a vampire even when she was human.

Angel and Spike have both been a little spotty (Angel more so) but both generally claim responsibility for their past actions.

With this in mind Angel believes that Spike should be more remorse for the amount of pain inflicted on his actions but Spike argues it should be let go. Angel also accused Spike of not caring enough seen as he seems so similar to unsoulled counterpart which Spike protests against. Angel also complains that Spike asked for a soul and he didn't. Angel at least on one occasion tried to lose his soul but presiumbly Angel doesn't want this at this point. So why is this part of his argument?

I agree that Angel's soul was a shock to his system. He never even thought about such a possibility. He was complaining about his suffering.

But still this all seems a little, not quite right. Spike before he got a soul didn't feel any remorse for his past actions. Spike even said that he doesn't care about atonement after he got a soul. Spending a hundred year killing without remorse? Even if one asked for a soul it would still be crippling psychologically surely?

What about Angel's curse? He wasn't cursed to be unhappy, he was merely cursed with a soul. We know there isn't a limit on his happiness but merely a limit on how much he can have before he loses his soul. Angel didn't know this before Buffy so it doesn't make sense that it would be a primary reason for the difference.

Maybe the key (as it's been said) is understanding them as people.

To me Spike is naturally an outward person. He connects with what goes on around him and lives in the here and now. Spike by his own admission was never one for self-reflection and back when he was soulless he didn't much contemplate evil itself. When Spike just got his soul back he was disassociating a little like Angel does. This wasn't a natural reaction. He did it because he thought that what Buffy would want (much like his decision to get a soul in the first place). Again this is very outward. When Buffy says she wants the old Spike back, he does just this. In any event Spike is more about what is around him and the here and now

Angel has always been more comtemplative. He admitted to Nina he tends to focus on the past and future and complications of like. As Angelus he contemplated evil and what it meant and how he could be truly sadistic. Angel tends to reflect more, rightly or wrongly.

Spike is now seeing what the mission means to him and Angel is beginning to connect more with people around him. They could learn a lot from each other in this respect.

[littlewilly]

Spike realizes that it wasnt his souls fault, it was the demon. Different minds in one body. even if angel got over it, he would still just sit there being broody and unsociable

[wiccianslayer]

In this episode, Angel comments on how much more easily and quickly Spike adjusts to having a soul than he himself did. Do you think that that was primarily because Spike had only the deaths of his victims to atone (evil, granted, but arguably more or less natural for a vampire), whereas Angel had to also to remember the torture and degradation of his victims (most vampires don't appear to "play with their food" as much as feed, kill, and walk away happy); or because Spike had someone (Buffy) to care for and encourage him through the transition from soulless to ensouled, then convince him that he actually had a purpose in the world and that having the soul was a good thing?

I am pretty sure he commented this in Just rewards.

and i think her probably did.

[Vampmogs]

Spike's been very spotty, and dare I say, at times a little childish (IMO) when it comes to his soul and his responsibility in all the horrible things he did. When Angel says to him in 'Damage' about killing slayers and Spike says "well I didn't have a soul back then did I?" he's attempting to use the lack of a soul as a 'get out of jail free' card, he doesn't believe he's responsible for the actions he committed without a soul. Yet in 'Destiny' he attempts to take credit for getting a soul when he didn't have one.

He can't have it both ways.

You can't claim responsibility for all the good things you do without a soul, but deny responsibility for all the bad things you did. Either your responsible for both, or not responsible for either.


Both he and Angel are very capable of contradicting themselves in that department. I think I get more irritated by Spike though because of his “I don’t give a piss” comments in relation to not only Nikki but in regard to wanting atonement. I didn’t like his attitude concerning Dana, when he says “what do you want me to go all boo hoo because she was driven out of her gord?” he showed no compassion.

[littlewilly]

Spike didnt choose to become a vamp and kill people. its like blaming a lion for killing people. its nature, what do you want spike to do???
sit around brooding all day? what good can come from it??

[white avenger]

Both vampires, when their souls were returned to them, went insane with guilt over the atrocities they had committed in their past. In Angel's case, Darla, the person closest to him, condemned him, rejected him, even cursed him for having the soul. She belittled him and refused to give him any sort of support (obviously!).

In Spike's case, the insanity was apparently much more severe, possibly because William was a much more sensitive person than Liam appeared to be, but that's only my opinion, and you might not agree. Anyway, once Buffy, the person closest to him, supported him, encouraged him, and believed in him, saying that, because of what he had done, he could be a better man, "You might not believe it, but I do. I DO.) That is what helped Spike to adjust to his new condition, and what Angel never had: someone to believe in him. And that, above all else, was why Spike could adjust to his ensouled condition so much more quickly than Angel did.

It had nothing, or at least very little, to do with the relative "badness" of either vampire and everything to do with the support, or lack of it, of the one person who they cared most for: Darla, who rejected Angel, and Buffy, who applauded Spike's decision to regain his soul and assured him that it was a good thing, not something that would make him less, but something that made him more.

[littlewilly]

hey avenger, you got it spot on. although i would say they are both probably as sensitive as each other,
but spike just more open and willing to express his feelings more

[Vampmogs]

Spike didnt choose to become a vamp and kill people. its like blaming a lion for killing people. its nature, what do you want spike to do???
sit around brooding all day? what good can come from it??

I wanted him to show some compassion for the people he did kill, whilst fighting evil. I think there's a healthy balance. In fact I wanted him just to show some compassion in general. Yeah he didn’t kill Dana but when he mocks her impairment he shows a lack of compassion for humanity in general. Though I’m glad he learnt his lesson at the end of the episode.

And if he can't be blamed for killing people, then he can't accept credit for getting his soul back either. You just can't have it both ways, he's either responsible for his actions, or he isn't.

And I agree with white avenger's analysis of the situation. Buffy was the key to helping both of these men. Angel didn't have Buffy for a very long time, Spike had her help sooner. Looking at both of them pre-Buffy, there's nothing to indicate Spike was dealing with it any better than Angel was, he was driven insane with guilt, and sitting on his arse, just like Angel.

[littlewilly]

i kind of do think he feels bad for what he did as a evil vamp, but its just spike nature to play the fool and joke about people, its how he connects with people. i dont think its totally lacking compassion. I mean look at Angel, even if he did get over it, the way he acts now is the way he would still act, being all mopey and broody

[Vampmogs]

i kind of do think he feels bad for what he did as a evil vamp, but its just spike nature to play the fool and joke about people, its how he connects with people.

I agree that he feels bad for the things he did, but it took Dana to make him face up to it.

I mean look at Angel, even if he did get over it, the way he acts now is the way he would still act, being all mopey and broody

Angel has no choice. If he gets too happy he looses his soul, it's not Angel's fault that he was cursed. I don't think we can expect Angel to be happy, he was very happy in Ats s3 and poked and prodded with a stick by Fred making sure he wasn't "perfectly happy." He isn't allowed to be happy, it's not his fault.

When he didn't have the curse in 'I Will Remember You' he was far from mopey and broody, he was giggling and had a smile on his face 24/7.

And he's had a tough life. Not only does he have to life with the memories of all the things Angelus did, he was turned on by the first human he ever tried to help, he had to give up his son to give a normal life, he had an evil law firm constantly trying to drive him insane and evil, he lost Doyle and later Cordelia, he had to leave Buffy because he was a vampire. There's plenty of things he has to be mopey about.

Besides he's not always mopey and broody, there's plenty of episodes in Ats when he's enthusiastic and fun. He also has a very dry sense of humour and wit about him, Spike's more in-your-face funny where Angel's a bit more subtle. Just different kind of humours.

Might add though that whilst some people may find Spike more fun to watch, Angel's mopey and broody attitude won him far more friends within the show than Spike's behaviour. Like you said, Spike hides behind his true feelings by putting on a bad ass persona and that doesn't often win him friends, when he shows his softer side and acts more like Angel (as for example with Fred) he wins friends far more easily.

[littlewilly]

I still like Angel though. and i realize when he was human and angelus he was NOT broody, so yeah, i cant blame him. But maybe another reason angel feels worse than spike is because *maybe* he's a better person. a bit more moral and humane. i wasnt tryin to down play how angel acts

[Dlou444]

I wanted him to show some compassion for the people he did kill, whilst fighting evil. I think there's a healthy balance. In fact I wanted him just to show some compassion in general. Yeah he didn’t kill Dana but when he mocks her impairment he shows a lack of compassion for humanity in general. Though I’m glad he learnt his lesson at the end of the episode.

And if he can't be blamed for killing people, then he can't accept credit for getting his soul back either. You just can't have it both ways, he's either responsible for his actions, or he isn't.

And I agree with white avenger's analysis of the situation. Buffy was the key to helping both of these men. Angel didn't have Buffy for a very long time, Spike had her help sooner. Looking at both of them pre-Buffy, there's nothing to indicate Spike was dealing with it any better than Angel was, he was driven insane with guilt, and sitting on his arse, just like Angel.

Sorry, I don't get it. But, that may be my personal preference. It seems to me that the sheer act of fighting AGAINST evil is far more productive than showing guilt. If someone came over and spray painted my car, I would MUCH rather them ACT to fix my car and perhaps roam the streets trying to stop other people's cars from being spray painted than sit and tell me how sorry they are.

And there IS a big difference between not being exactly "at fault" for killings he did as a vampire and then fighting to get his soul back. Just the same as if you get someone hooked on drugs by shooting them up in their sleep, you can't be stunned if they then do anything and everything to get drugs. Steal, prostitute themselves, whatever. But, if they decide, "Nope, I no longer want to do this, I'm going to fight my way out of this drug fog instead" EVEN if it's to impress a girl, that doesn't make the fight out of it any less hard.
It's against his "nature" as a vampire. Killing is natural for a vampire, fighting to get his soul back, UNNATURAL.

Personally, I think you're putting a LOT of emphasis on the impact Dana had on Spike. Yes, he did actively SAY something about it, but he was slapped in the face with it. But, it's not like it drastically changed him or the manner in which he lived his life. He was just as snarky and selfish as ever afterward.

[Vampmogs]

Sorry, I don't get it. But, that may be my personal preference. It seems to me that the sheer act of fighting AGAINST evil is far more productive than showing guilt. If someone came over and spray painted my car, I would MUCH rather them ACT to fix my car and perhaps roam the streets trying to stop other people's cars from being spray painted than sit and tell me how sorry they are.

Like I said, I think there is a happy medium. Angel expresses guilt and fights against evil at the same time, why can't Spike do both? Spike tells Wood he doesn't "give a piss" about killing Nikki, but Angel tells Holtz he's sorry, even when Holtz stole his son, and he admits it doesn't change anything. IMO, Angel was the bigger man here. What would you rather, someone saying “I’m sorry and I’ll fix your car” or “I don’t give a piss about your car or the trouble it caused you, but I’ll fix it anyway.” Of course most people would rather the first option, and someone who says the first option should get a lot more respect.

And there IS a big difference between not being exactly "at fault" for killings he did as a vampire and then fighting to get his soul back. Just the same as if you get someone hooked on drugs by shooting them up in their sleep, you can't be stunned if they then do anything and everything to get drugs. Steal, prostitute themselves, whatever. But, if they decide, "Nope, I no longer want to do this, I'm going to fight my way out of this drug fog instead" EVEN if it's to impress a girl, that doesn't make the fight out of it any less hard.

But I don't think that's what Spike is claiming here. He's take the position a lot of the fans take concerning Angel and Angelus. Spike is denouncing any responsibility for what he did as a soulless vampire as if he had no control over it. If he wants to take that approach he has to take that with getting his soul as well, if he wants to act as if he's two different people then fine, but he can't take responsibility for getting his soul if he isn't going to face up to the fact he is responsible for all the lives he took as well.

And it isn't even just concerning the soul. He tries to blame Angel for making him a monster, instead of being a man and taking responsibility for his own actions. He tells Angel he made him a monster, but Angel's right, he "just opened up the door, and let the real Spike out." Spike has to take some responsibility for a change, he can't blame Angel or the lack of a soul for all the things he isn't proud of but brag about things he is.

Personally, I think you're putting a LOT of emphasis on the impact Dana had on Spike. Yes, he did actively SAY something about it, but he was slapped in the face with it. But, it's not like it drastically changed him or the manner in which he lived his life. He was just as snarky and selfish as ever afterward.

You're right, he was. But at least it made him stop and think for a moment about the lives they did ruin, he never did.

It wasn’t until ‘Shells’ that I actually began to like Spike’s character again. I had respect for what he did in ‘Chosen’ but after being resurrected he really ruined that for me. He constantly brought up saving the world and how he deserved a reward for this, when Angel and especially Buffy, even Xander, have saved the world before and never did this. He made judgements on Angel from the second he arrived at Wolfram and Hart without bothering to find out why they actually took over, he showed no compassion for people like Dana and tried to blame Angel for everything bad he did, and he tried to paint getting his soul back as part of his "destiny" and because he knew it was the right thing to do, when all season seven of Btvs he’d claimed it was for Buffy and Buffy alone, he’d stated this a number of times. He just really showed an ugly side of his personality to me, and I lost a lot of respect for him. It wasn’t until ‘Shells’ and he said he wanted to start fighting because it’s what Fred wanted and it’s what *he* wanted, that I started to like him again.

I've always respected Angel's character because he'll never shy away from accepting responsibility for his actions. And people may think he's broody because of this, and he can be really hard on himself, but I really respect someone or a character who'll face up to the consequences and not blame others or make excuses. He'll stand up and try and repent for the things he's done, he isn't afraid to say sorry to someone and he'll help people.

[littlewilly]

Thing is, Wood didnt want or need to hear an apology from spike. that would have made wood madder. and spike new that. Spike does feel bad about killing her.
Just as he does feel bad for all his murders. Some would say Angel expresses a bit too much guilt.

You say spike has to accept responsibility for both killings and the soul , well how do you KNOW he dosnt. Just because he dosnt brood and go on about it all the time.
And plus the chip changed everything.
He wouldnt have fallen(properly) in love with buffy or got his soul back had he not been chipped. It (kind of) forced him to change.

And when he was saying he got his soul back for buffy, he was telling the truth. that Was the right thing to do. But people dont choose their destiny.
Spike saw NO reason why it might not be him. none of them *deserved* it.
They both became good people. whoever gets it gets it.:: vampire

[Kana]

Like I said, I think there is a happy medium. Angel expresses guilt and fights against evil at the same time, why can't Spike do both? Spike tells Wood he doesn't "give a piss" about killing Nikki, but Angel tells Holtz he's sorry, even when Holtz stole his son, and he admits it doesn't change anything. IMO, Angel was the bigger man here. What would you rather, someone saying “I’m sorry and I’ll fix your car” or “I don’t give a piss about your car or the trouble it caused you, but I’ll fix it anyway.” Of course most people would rather the first option, and someone who says the first option should get a lot more respect.

To be honest this is where the analogy breaks down for me. Sentiment can be tied to a car, no doubt but in more cases than none you can replace it. You can't make up for the loss of a human life, but I agree about understanding or at least trying. Spike interestingly changed his mind in LMPTM. He said he doesn't give a piss but he at least admitted that with a soul he can see that her life was worth more than a game and hence he gives Wood a 'pass'.



But I don't think that's what Spike is claiming here. He's take the position a lot of the fans take concerning Angel and Angelus. Spike is denouncing any responsibility for what he did as a soulless vampire as if he had no control over it.

I'm not sure if Spike has actively said that. He's been a little more consistent in the whole "I did these things" scenario.

If he wants to take that approach he has to take that with getting his soul as well, if he wants to act as if he's two different people then fine, but he can't take responsibility for getting his soul if he isn't going to face up to the fact he is responsible for all the lives he took as well
And it isn't even just concerning the soul. He tries to blame Angel for making him a monster, instead of being a man and taking responsibility for his own actions. He tells Angel he made him a monster, but Angel's right, he "just opened up the door, and let the real Spike out." Spike has to take some responsibility for a change, he can't blame Angel or the lack of a soul for all the things he isn't proud of but brag about things he is.

Well absolutely. To me it's really his attitude in Destiny that I didn't agree with. Either you're responsible for your soulless actions or you're not. Don't lay it on Angel. If it was the lack of soul then you can't blame Angel either.


You're right, he was. But at least it made him stop and think for a moment about the lives they did ruin, he never did.

Like we said Spike was rarely one for self reflection. He always much more joie de vivre, carpe diem which I think can be healthy. My only issue was his cruel (and unnecessary) words to Wood. Fine don't apologize but don't be an arse and say you don't care about her death and claim that she didn't love her son. Nikki like Buffy was caught between a rock and a hard place. Not fair to judge her as a Slayer or a mother.

It wasn’t until ‘Shells’ that I actually began to like Spike’s character again.

I liked Shells more for Spike getting some nuts. I was getting tired of the whole "It's for the girl" or "I'm better than Angel" reason for motivation. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't have changed what happened because it was all part of Spike's journey, I'm just glad he arrived to the conclusions he did in Shells.

I had respect for what he did in ‘Chosen’ but after being resurrected he really ruined that for me. He constantly brought up saving the world and how he deserved a reward for this, when Angel and especially Buffy, even Xander, have saved the world before and never did this.

I don't blame Spike too much. Like Angel, he was in a place he didn't want to be and was acting out. As much as Spike tried to big himself up, Angel tried to downplay his heroism. Both of them needed to grow up.

He made judgements on Angel from the second he arrived at Wolfram and Hart without bothering to find out why they actually took over, he showed no compassion for people like Dana and tried to blame Angel for everything bad he did, and he tried to paint getting his soul back as part of his "destiny" and because he knew it was the right thing to do, when all season seven of Btvs he’d claimed it was for Buffy and Buffy alone, he’d stated this a number of times. He just really showed an ugly side of his personality to me, and I lost a lot of respect for him. It wasn’t until ‘Shells’ and he said he wanted to start fighting because it’s what Fred wanted and it’s what *he* wanted, that I started to like him again.

Yeah, like I said, Spike was nowhere near perfect in that Season. Most of it was because Spike and Angel bring out the worst in each other. Both of them also showed a hint of concern. Angel seemed concerned for releasing Spike forever as spirit and there was a touch of concern in Spike's voice when he talked about Angel taking a "devil's bargain".

I've always respected Angel's character because he'll never shy away from accepting responsibility for his actions. And people may think he's broody because of this, and he can be really hard on himself, but I really respect someone or a character who'll face up to the consequences and not blame others or make excuses. He'll stand up and try and repent for the things he's done, he isn't afraid to say sorry to someone and he'll help people.

Aside from my Angel-is-crazy-but-I-love-him-anyway thing, I'm pretty meh when it comes to vampire responsibility. I actually judge vampires differently and I agree with Angel that what they deserve is open to debate (although I really judge them that harshly at all) but the point is, brood, don't brood, whatever. As long as your fighting the good fight, which, Spike and Angel are. I just prefer Angel's character, I rarely argued his moral superiority.