The "Demon" Inside

[Dlou444]

I know that part of the "story" is that when a person becomes a vampire they are essentially possessed by a demon.
But, I don't think they do a very good job of actually portraying this on a consistent basis.
The story about Spike's mother does it well, but she's about it.
It seems VERY clear that the vampire doesn't only have the memories of the person, but the personality also. It looks a LOT like they're they same....only amplified. Liam was kind of a careless jerk who didn't care who he hurt to get what he wanted....Angelus was the same way only more of a psychopath. Darla was a hooker, we don't see much of her doing anything before she's a vampire, but she's still rather "sex oriented" when she's a vampire. Drusilla was just nuts. Spike was so sweet and loving and came across (at least to ME) like really WANTING to be someone everyone looked up to but couldn't ever measure up....and stayed that way.
The Gorch brothers stayed brothers and loving each other.
There just isn't a lot of evidence that the PERSON is gone and this demon has set up shop. Fred/Illyria (At least the part on TV) seems like a MUCH better example of that kind of thing happening.

Other than a few "freak" times like in "Angel" in S1 of Buffy and Angel in Pylea, they seem to have total control over when they turn all vampy and what they do while that way. All the rest of the time, it seems to be just them....with benefits.

I'm sure it's probably a way to explain vampires in this world of demons and how they fit in. But, does anyone else think they really did a bad job pulling this off?
And, then, how does this work with the soul? I mean, normally, we have Angel running around with a demon inside that "took over" and a soul that's doing what? Keeping that demon in check? So, would that make it the demon's soul or Liam's?

Sorry, it's after 3.....my brain is just rambling at this point.

[white avenger]

When someone becomes a vampire, the host's memories and old feelings remain pretty much in tact. Their personality to a certain extent stays the same with one major exception. Since the soul is pretty much equated by Whedon as a sense of guilt, or feeling of right and wrong, without it, the vampire does whatever it wants to without regard to whether the action is right or wrong. It's Faith's rule of "Want, take, have," taken to the extreme, without any regard to the common rules of society or regard for the welfare or feelings of anyone but themselves . Now, with no restraints of conscience, combined with the desire to hunt humans as a source of nourishment and endowed with strength, speed, ans senses far in excess of normal humand, vampires become an an amplified version of a bully, abusing (killing) those weaker than themselves to get what they want. That's why most vampires fear the Slayer. She's NOT weaker than they are.

As for the personality itself, since we don't know exactly what the "vamp demon" is or how dynamic or dominant it really is, but from observation of those we knew in both life AND un-life, it's fairly safe to assume that, like humans, their personalities vary, some being extremely dynamic, resulting in pretty much complete subjugation as in Liam's case, to only partial or no subjugation as in the case of either Spike, Harmony, or even Drusilla. They weren't bullies in life, but quite the opposite, downbeaten victims, so that is how they remain in vampire form. The only real difference in human Harmony and Vampire Harmony is that Vampire Harmony is a predator whereas human Harmony was prey. Human William was a decent, highly moral, and very loyal man, so Vampire William, possibly because his demon wasn't quite as dynamic or dominant as Angelus' was, wasn't able to completely subjugate those values. Liam never really loved anyone in life, so he was pretty much incapable of love as a vampire. The Gouch brothers were most likely extremely loyal to one another in life, so they were also just as loyal to each other as vampires.

Spike's mother is the only real example we have of such a complete personality reversal as she exhibited, so maybe the demon possessing her was an extremely aggressive and dynamic one, capable of totally replacing any feelings of love or loyalty ever possessed by its host.

[Kana]

I think it really depends on the vampire. Vampires, like humans, are complex creatures psychologically. A lot of people say Liam was a careless jerk so therefore Angelus was. Angelus was actually ver learned and intelligent. I suspect Liam was too but never felt he could be anything great but he always wanted to be. It doesn't make sense that some vampires when human (I think Gorch brothers being an example) commited heinous acts but when they were vampires they didn't reach the notoriety of Angelus whereas Liam wasn't really that bad a human comparatively speaking.

We all react differently to events that that can affect us psychologically. Some become conflicted (Sam Lawson) and some who kind and gentle can become vicious (Anne and to an extent Dru). Dru is interesting because although she was able to love, her belief in evil was perhaps stronger. I think aside from the initial Spuffy days retcon, part of the reason Dru left is because Spike betrayed what she believed in, evil. Elizabeth was also similar. Remember what Cordy said in regards to her vision? The vampire who could love for centuries was also depicted as the worst in her group.

Spike I've always seen as very motivated by love and loyalty. Even when he was evil, although caused arguably more damage than the average demon (Actually I'd should remove the word 'arguably' and replace it with considerably), he didn't have a strong belief in evil. I doubt he had the concepts of good and evil instilled in him as much as Liam did. Liam had internalised this system and therefore he retained that as Angelus, but believing he could attain the elusive purity he couldn't as a mortal. Angelus attained the clarity of evil.

While Spike had a sense of honour, I don't think it's accurate to call him a moral being. He was clearly intelligent and must have known he was causing a lot of misery with his actions. He just didn't stop to think about it as much as some demons. He would have said he was evil (he considered himself one of the 'baddest') but it was a status thing than a belief system, so it wasn't that difficult for him to abandon the concept he barely believed for a trait he retained.

Anne? It would have been more comforting for Spike to believe that the demon had little to do with his mother, but I still feel this was a rationalization on his part. A vampire cannot exploit any part of the human psyche that isn't there aside from the newly aquired bloodlust. As much as it must hurt, Anne really had the thoughts she had when she was human. She was just frightened to express them.

[Blondie Bear]

Maybe all the stuff vampire Anne said was because she wanted to die. She didn't want to live as a vampire. So she said the most awful things she could think of to William then attacked him so he'd have to kill her. I think the look on her face right as she turns to dust kind of bears out this theory.

[Kana]

Maybe all the stuff vampire Anne said was because she wanted to die. She didn't want to live as a vampire. So she said the most awful things she could think of to William then attacked him so he'd have to kill her. I think the look on her face right as she turns to dust kind of bears out this theory.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode but I can't remember if Anne found out how vampires could be killed or even if they could be killed. She may not have known William was going to kill her. If she did want to die, and did know how vampires can be killed she presumably could have staked herself without having to say all those things to him.

[Dlou444]

Perhaps my issue comes more from not understanding the issues of person vs. soul.
In the Buffyverse, a soul seems to mean that thing that allows you to feel good for doing good and guilt for doing bad.
In my brain, when you die, your soul leaves your body. "You" essentially are gone, off to haunt the earth, or heaven or where ever. That's not just your ability to feel guilt, but YOU. Your quirks, your personality and everything else that makes you YOU, minus only, perhaps, physical things that are tied to the body like being paralyzed or on oxygen.
I imagine, if I ran into a ghost or an angel, that is the soul of the person who once was alive. And that being would have all the personalities and quirks of that person.
So, it would naturally tend to reason that a vampire would not have a soul because they're dead. But, it doesn't explain who or what this "demon" is and when exactly they show themselves.

They say often in the show that it's NOT the same person that it's a demon that has possessed the person. But, that doesn't seem to be the case in the show. The person seems to be the PERSON with their likes and dislikes, personality and everything just with no guilt for doing wrong.

Harmony WAS a predator before. Just a different kind. She preyed on the "less popular". Dru was crazy, but also kind of sweet. She basically stayed that way, just a bit more gruesome. She liked her birds and her dolls and even that puppy even though she couldn't seem to make things live. But, like with the bird, it seemed simply that she forgot to feed them.
I think Liam and Angelus had a LOT in common. Liam disregarded consequences and liked to do exactly as he pleased as long as he was happy he didn't care who it hurt. The biggest difference was he had super powers as a vampire and was expected to kill people in order to live. Liam seems LOT more like Angelus than Angel is. Could some of that be that he was young and Angel isn't? I don't know.
William had some pent up rage about being laughed at and treated like a social leper. He definitely wanted to get that OUT when he became a vampire. Even to the point of trying to hunt down Slayers so he could "up" his status as a vampire.

All I'm saying here is there are only a few cases where the "demon" seems to be different from the person. And, it seems to happen at times when they want to show how this isn't the person, it's the demon.

Although, if you look at the Spike and his mother where they are TRYING to show it, there comes a problem. Because even as a vampire, Spike's first "mission" was to save his mother from all this pain of drying and take her along with him. That love for her stayed on. It seems unlikely that the demon that possessed him ALSO had this great love and caring for his Mother. But, then his Mother changed and not only does he see she's VERY MUCH not the same, but feels bad about it for centuries. Maybe she WAS the same and did want to die. I don't know.
But, there aren't many times when it's obvious that there IS a demon in there. Certainly not the same kind of demons that are portrayed in the shows. It seems to be more of a situation where they just lose they're conscious than anything else. More like Pinocchio than the Exorcist .....if you get my drift.
If there were, there's little explanation for Spike changing before he got his soul. As I've said before, chip or no chip, Spike COULD have stayed evil. And the idea of a demon being in there, seems to lend itself to the idea that he WOULD stay evil. He couldn't be the "hands on" evil guy that he was. But, if Harmony could find minions so could he. He did it a before, like when hunting for the ring. He saw the Master, he saw the creepy kid. He knows how to lead and not actually kill. He could have stayed evil and still had the fun of kicking demon booty. There seem to be PLENTY of "good" demons out there to beat up. Like poor Clem or Doyle, later even Cordy.
I just can't help but think that unless we're talking different "races" of demons hand picking which body they want to jump into that closest resembles their own personality, that everyone would have the same, or closer to the same, effect when changed.