Holtz: best big bad???

[littlewilly]

the only big bads from Angel and Buffy that can challenge holtz for best bigbad charachter would be angelus or the mayor. Ive always enjoyed flashback episodes and there is plenty with Holtz and Angel.

I find Holtz character very interesting, and although he was just a man he had a legendary mythical aura about him. In the superb episode 'Quickening' one particular scene shows what Holtz is all about when wolfram +harts swat team has him surrounded and he single handedly killed them all.

But the arc with Holtz is probably the best individual story line from Angel. From the flashback scenes in the late 18th century, to being brought forward 200 years to hunt Angel, to kidnapping Angels son then going to, and returning from a hell dimension for one last show down with Angel.

its as gripping a story as there has been on Angel and Buffy. And Holtz, for me, is in the top 3 big bads in the buffyverse history.

[ILLYRIAN]

Holtz killed the vampires, as Darla said he always seemed to know where they where, so, was holtz a vampire slayer? and if he was, what he did makes our little Faithy seem like a good little girl.

[littlewilly]

he cant be a slayer, he's male. plus in a straight one on one fight with a vamp(well a vamp like angel anyway) he would lose. i think he's just smart and skilful, and stronger than the average human.

one the surface he does seem bad, even a bit evil. but its understanable after what Angelus did.

[white avenger]

Holtz obviously wasn't a Slayer in the sense that Buffy or Faith were, but he certainly was a demon hunter (not a rogue demon hunter, though!) who probably had an extensive organization and enough funds available to him to pursue his calling without having to worry about expenses. Since the only time we see his actual home it appears to be quite modest, it's probably a fair assumption that he is himself not a wealthy man, which means he probably has a sponsor somewhere funding his operation (Wouldn't it be cool if the same people who paid his expenses became, a century or so later, the "deep pockets" funding Buffy and her army).

[littlewilly]

good point about funding, he did seem to have control and resources, and he always new where vamps were.

[TheHeartist]

Technically speaking, he is the greatest big bad. He's the only big bad to ever actually achieve his plan ;)

[white avenger]

Technically speaking, he is the greatest big bad. He's the only big bad to ever actually achieve his plan ;)


There is nothing in this world more dangerous than a fanatic who believes that he is on a mission from God. Holtz was a good man who ultimately did evil things for simple misguided revenge.

[littlewilly]

He didnt really achieve his plan. he had to keep changing it.
He was supposed to kill Angelus but ended up killing himself, because he noticed conner
was beginning to warm to Angel(at least thats what he thought)

[thegifting]

There is nothing in this world more dangerous than a fanatic who believes that he is on a mission from God.

I disagree.

On the topic, The Heartist is really on to something. Holtz was probably the strongest villian, in terms of conviction, ability, dexterity, and sheer old school ass kicking. And one thing that really made me love Holtz was that he essentially turned into Angelus in his quest to take down Angel. Of all the Angelverse (I refuse to call it Buffyverse) characters, none were as mercilessly cold in their actions, and passionate about it in their 'hearts'. When they undid somebody, they didn't do something major and evil to the person- they were tsunamis that crushed everything.

[Dlou444]

the only big bads from Angel and Buffy that can challenge holtz for best bigbad charachter would be angelus or the mayor. Ive always enjoyed flashback episodes and there is plenty with Holtz and Angel.

I can agree about flashback episodes, I never thought Holtz was that great. I might put him up near the top, but I would have a hard time saying he was up there with the Mayor. His part was small, his storyline a little strange. It was hard to always tell what was his plan and when he was changing it and why. It's kind like saying a Jack Rabbit constantly changing course to get away from a coyote is a brilliant strategist. He may get away, but that doesn't mean he had it all planned out.
I gotta wonder about a guy who can't hunt down Angelus and Darla after all that time. They seemed pretty flamboyant.

The Trio seemed to have more success.

[littlewilly]

I totally agree with you Dlou444, in a post above yours someone says he is the 'greatest' big bad as he was the only one to achieve his plan.
But im thinking, well, basically his plan was to find, torture and kill Angel.
But instead of killing Angel, he ended up killing himself, pretty much because he himself couldnt beat Angel.
I mean when he thought he saw Connor starting to like Angel, he got Justine to kill him, in one last desperate attempt at victory over his superior rival.

I still love the story though.

[The Kinslayer]

I like Holtz, he creeps me out. But for me Angelus is the best. And even if he´s not the big bad of Angel s.4 that´s then I fell in love with his character. I liked him before, but after that he was my favourite by far. I know a lot of people like The Mayor. He as his moments, but mostly he just bugs me.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

He sort of achieved his plan without knowing it. ok, maybe angel wasnt killed but i think holtz would've liked the idea of never ending torture in a box in the ocean. lol. i just finished season 3. i think he was alright, but def not as gripping as the mayor or angelus was.... i dunno.but there was a part of me that felt bad for him, as well...and thought there was a good man there, i mean, in raising connor and all and wanting to give him a wonderful life.

[Dlou444]

i dunno.but there was a part of me that felt bad for him, as well...and thought there was a good man there, i mean, in raising connor and all and wanting to give him a wonderful life.

Weird, I got the other take on him.
I felt bad for him, for a while. Then I was kind of happy when he just took Connor instead of killing him. I think the cute little baby kind of turned him into mush.
But, after that, I lost all compassion.
I don't think he did a very good job raising Connor. Granted they were in a hell dimension, that we never got to see. But, Connor's stories were a little out there. I'll give him that I wasn't there and maybe it was necessary. But, it's not exactly what I think of as a "good" father. Even some abused kids are defend their parents to a bizarre point.

I can give him some credit that he HATED Angelus so there was no real need to give him to complete scoop on how Angel was now.

But, he DIDN'T give him a wonderful life. He went so far as to have himself killed and set up Angel. True....good on a EVIL level, but not on good father level. He knew Connor would turn against Angel....perhaps kill him. And then the poor kid would have been all alone, in a strange world, no education, no future, just all alone. It was really the most AWFUL thing that he did to this kid that he CLAIMED to love. I lost all respect for him after that.

[JCC]

I absolutely HATED him.

So I guess he was the best Big Bad. :D

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

i said he WANTED to give him a good life, not that he did. His original plan was to take him out to some ranch and raise him as his own son. I think that would've been a wonderful life. But how good of a life can you give a child raised in a hell dimension?

[Buffanator]

Holtz was a pu**y. :teeth: Heh! (J/K!)

Seriously, tho, Holtz's plan WAS to kill *Angelus* but his plan changed when he saw Connor (baby connor). I think that Holtz's idea then changed to one of kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Take Connor away from Angel, thereby hurting Angel much more than a firey death (or beheading or stake to the heart) AND at the same time, having a child of his own again, a son, to raise & love & blahblahblah. Angelus (& Darla) took that away from Holtz... they killed his wife & son, & vamped his daughter - but they didn't kill Holtz. As always, Angelus went for the HURT, the PAIN - not for the kill.

So Holtz did the same thing to him. Took his son away. Went for the hurt, instead of the kill. And in killing himself & making Connor believe it was done by Angel, he further drove a stake between true father & son - so yeah, Holtz did win. Angel's memory-wipe was the only way he could figure to give his son a normal life. And what father doesn't want that for their children?

[SpoonsAreCool]

I thought Holtz was a great big bad, one of the best. I'd even say he was my favourite character of Ats.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I never viewed him as a 'Big Bad' more of an enemy of Angel

I find there is a difference being that he was just pursuing his vengence over the being that had killed his sole reason to live.

I loved Holtz, he was great.

[MSchett]

Holtz wasn't a big bad in my understanding of the word. Ussually the big bads want to take over the world or destroy the world, but Holtz was just a guy out for vengence... He was a good villian but definitely not Glorificus good...

[Edmund Blackadder]

Holtz wasn't a big bad in my understanding of the word. Ussually the big bads want to take over the world or destroy the world, but Holtz was just a guy out for vengence... He was a good villian but definitely not Glorificus good...

He was magnificent and definitely 'Glorficus good' BUT I think he is one of the 'baddies' to see more as Angels enemy than an out and out villain.

[MSchett]

But some things made no sense like how a normal well trained human with a sword can take out a dozen well trained guys with assault rifles and grenades...

[Edmund Blackadder]

But some things made no sense like how a normal well trained human with a sword can take out a dozen well trained guys with assault rifles and grenades...


Well we never saw what actually happened, but the fact is many times we have seen single people fight against overwhelming odds and come out on top.

It isn't always about strength, its about what you do.

[Veyron]

Holtz was a very, very, clever man.

He was no doubt a witch hunter in his time and if anyone knows anything about European witch hunters it's that they were some of the greediest people on the planet in their day - they'd often rob the spoils of their "witches" to fund their themselves, and I think that the watchers council was probably born out of the remnants of at least one group of witch hunters.

Either that or Wolfram and Hart initially started the council by giving them the resources (IE the books and stuff) to learn about demons, vamps, magick, etc etc before the council realised they were on the 'other' side and split from them (personal opinion here by the way, so please don't shoot me down if I'm wrong about it.)

I don't believe however that Holtz was that kind of witch hunter though, as it's been previously stated that he lived in a modest dwelling with his family, and family meant everything to the man. I agree with the statement that he was probably the best Big Bad in Angel - as he was Angel's own personal Big Bad and when he stated that his revenge would be total (or what-ever he said, I don't exactly recall the exact words) he was counting on Connor to be the instrument of that revenge by programming, if you take the metaphor, to be the instrument of that revenge. It's just a shame that he was unable to stop Connor from bonding with Angel and the crew; Connor's feelings toward them made the betrayal that should have been Holtz's revenge that much harder so the plan was changed to suit his (Holtz) purposes.

He did have to change his plans several times, again - this has been mentioned, but that's what the man was good at - manipulating others to do his bidding whilst keeping his hands relatively clean, although, as we know, he could mix it up with the best of them when he had to.

Holtz was the main man in his day, and even when brought forward two centuries, he still had the where-for-all to know how to do his job even though his surroundings had changed beyond his wildest imagination.

[littlewilly]

But some things made no sense like how a normal well trained human with a sword can take out a dozen well trained guys with assault rifles and grenades...

Thing is though, this is the reason Holtz was legendary and was capable of having a vampire like Angelus run for his life. This was actually one of my favorite Holtz bits ever.

[scobro]

I could have taken Holtz for a few more seasons. I like his character; had legs enough to stand on his own and seemed to have wonderful material for enough backstory.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I could have taken Holtz for a few more seasons. I like his character; had legs enough to stand on his own and seemed to have wonderful material for enough backstory.

Ohhhh does ANYONE think a Holtz period piece TV series would be just awesome.

[AgentX7k]

I did like his character but I couldn't get behind him even remotely. I'm on the 'Angel isn't responsible for Angelus' bandwagon so his revenge came off as evil, I couldn't really sympathize with his loss because it doesn't justify his actions. Killing Angel is bad enough but in doing so he was willing to kill his friends and technically all the innocent people Angel helps, he's just another evil bastard to me.