JUST how STRONG ARE vampires?

[littlewilly]

all ya can do is love the inconsistancey on Buffy n Angel. coz if it annoys you, you'll be annoyed everytime u watch it. the thing that annoys me most is *vampires* exactly whats their power??

sometimes you see examples of extreme power, like an iron door being tore off (the harvest) or spike punching someone 30ft through the air (tabula rasa)

other times you see extreme examples off speed and stealth, like in school hard, when that girls walking along with 2 guys an spike manages to get rid of the guys, somewhere, somehow without her seeing or hearing a thing.

and instead of using these skills against slayers or hunters, they actually sometimes lose fights to humans. im sure i could think of lots more examples but i cant be bothered.

but still, i do like the buffyverse version of vampires. they've got personality and charisma.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

maybe some of it has to do with how long your a vamp. I mean, some get dusted in an instant. they don't even have a chance to learn and feel their new powers and to harness them. i guess the more action you see, the more you know how to move and what to do. So i figure experience has a lot to do with it.

[littlewilly]

yeah age and experience definetly matter, but, lets take harsh light of day, when he confronts buffy on campus, why dosnt he use his speed and strenght to simply kill her? same with school hard, becoming2, lovers walk.... i know buffys strong but the experience vamps dont seem to take full advantage of their abilities at times.

[palabravampiress]

^ I always assumed that, with a slayer, it was because her strength and speed either matched or outmatched her own, so you couldn't always tell how fast they were moving or how hard they were hitting.

No idea how it works for non-slayers, though.

[caitaintdead]

I think some vampires actually enjoy the fight. Spike didn't want to kill Buffy - he enjoyed fighting her, and it was either VampXander or VampWillow who said in the wish that the chase is the best part, the hunt.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

PV i think you are right, they establish more than once that Buffy is stronger than even Spike and Angel i believe...because she has to be in order to take them down. Besides it usually isnt a match of strength that killed past slayers, it was other mistakes, so i believe they are all naturally stronger than any vamp.

[littlewilly]

ok, 2 points here. 1. i always thought a slayers strength only MATCHED a vamps, and thats why you have gotta train her. i cant think of any examples to suggest slayers are naturally stronger, i thought the were just more trained and skilled. and plus buffys only so good coz she's the legendary, best ever slayer. lots of other slayers would hav been taken out years ago if they had been through what buffs been through.

Edit:

plus, buffs nearly died a few times if it wasnt for her being saved by someone or something. she ran away from sundae, reilly saved her from vamp in fool for love, plus you saw in the wish what she would be like if she didnt have the scoobies. an average slayer.

[celestialarrow]

You know I've tought a lot about slayer's and vampire's strength and abilities. I mean sometimes angel does amazing things like in "supersymmetry" with his photographic memory thingy or in "Slouching towards Bethelehem" with that hearing thing. Also how does their strength apply metal door and cars or trucks can they lift these things or not. I mean in "Whats' my Line part one" Angel couldn't even escape that cage. But in accordance to slayer's vs vampire it's been pointed out by Angel himself how buffy is stronger than him. And to be honest it wouldn't make much sense for a slayer to be weaker than vampire's seeing as there's only one slayer at a time and when there's thousands of vamps.

[littlewilly]

i would agree that buffy is stronger than vamps. id also agree that an average slayer and average vamp are more even in their power.
but, in 5 by 5, angel would have beat faith if he wanted to. then in salvage i think it is, angelus could have killed faith. and even spike and buffs 1st fight(skool hard) buffy was only saved by her mom.
and plus, sunnydale didnt have thousands of vamps. at any given time ther was prob only a couple of gangs and a few loners.

[palabravampiress]

More than anything, I think Buffy kept the population down by killing fledglings fresh out of the cemetery (before they could make new vamps) and by killing relatively young or inept vamps that had formed gangs. That's your average, run-of-the-mill, easy-to-slay vampire.

Ancient or older vamps, like the Master, Kakistos, or even the fanged four, seemed to have grown in strength, skill, and cunning. They'd had centuries to master the art of combat and to train their bodies and their minds accordingly. I think that's why they presented such a great challenge for slayers and why they were generally presented as pretty equally matched when they went up against Buffy. Even Spike, the youngest of the fanged four, had an advantage in that he was taught by the best.

[Lyri]

Angel told Buffy that she was stronger then he was in 'Sactuary':

Buffy: "You hit me."
Angel: "Not to go all school yard on you, but you hit me first. And in case you've forgotten, you're a little bit stronger than I am."

I think, like the others have pointed out, age has a lot to do with how much strength they have. It's like everything in life, the more experience you have at something, the better you're going to be at it.

[celestialarrow]

i would agree that buffy is stronger than vamps. id also agree that an average slayer and average vamp are more even in their power.
but, in 5 by 5, angel would have beat faith if he wanted to. then in salvage i think it is, angelus could have killed faith. and even spike and buffs 1st fight(skool hard) buffy was only saved by her mom.
and plus, sunnydale didnt have thousands of vamps. at any given time ther was prob only a couple of gangs and a few loners.




When I said thousands I didn't mean in Sunnydale I meant around the world. Sorry if I wasn't that clear I had mentioned that referring to one girl in all the world with the strength and skill to fight the vampires. So when I said that I was assuming that there were many vamps every.

[littlewilly]

When I said thousands I didn't mean in Sunnydale I meant around the world. Sorry if I wasn't that clear I had mentioned that referring to one girl in all the world with the strength and skill to fight the vampires. So when I said that I was assuming that there were many vamps every.


Its hard to even estimate how many vamps there would be in the buffyverse world. Could be any amount, i'd also say that there are thousands. I imagine vamps in general are not that keen about turning people into vampires. Unless they need a crew or just want a companion.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

In regards to angel beating faith if he wanted, i dont think its necessarily that she isnt strong enough, but thats shes so wreckless and in the end, WANTED him to kill her. She had a huge death wish just to get away from everything she was going through.

[Entiel]

I believe,and sorry if i sounds stupid,that it also has to do with who sires you and maybe some potential that there's in every one..I mean really strong vampires(Angels,Darla,the Master) rarely sired anyone and when they did the vampire was stronger than the average(only exception here are the vampires that spike sired when he was triggered but maybe it was because the first made him sire them and he didn't do it cause he wanted to)also sometimes I get the feeling that some people are meant to be strong vampires if sired(like Darla sees potential in Angel or Dru in Spike)these are somethings that may not be correct but I believe them,especially the first one...

[littlewilly]

That isnt stupid, i think every point you made is exactly true. Bloodline, Age, Personality and intelligence all combine in making a strong vampire.

Think on the sire line, master-darla-angelus-drusilla-spike. All powerful, All slayer killers. All with the attributes named above.
The point about these vamps seeing potential in in their victims id say, while not a fact, could be possible.

And the vamps spike sired were only just fresh out the ground when dusted, so maybe they may have become stronger eventually. i think darla, angel, dru and spike would have got more powerful over time.

[InsaneMystic]

I mean sometimes angel does amazing things like in "supersymmetry" with his photographic memory thingy or in "Slouching towards Bethelehem" with that hearing thing.
Just an aside... I thought that the eidetic memory thing was specific to Angel as a person, not a generic vampire trait. It really would fit in with his well-established talent for art, having a remarkable eye & memory for detail.

[Keanoite]

As far as Buffy being stronger than vampires well that only makes sense. What's the point of the slayer if she isn't stronger than the things she was supposed to kill? However what gives Buffy the advantage in my opinion is that she is Buffy. She refuses to lose who she is. Long before she was called she was a fighter. As has been touched on the show she uses her emotions to her advantage, draws extra strenght from them. She has the scoobies, dysfunctional as they may be they are something to fight for, for any other slayer beore her (Nikki Wood aside) it was just them and their watcher. Nothing but the kill to live her.

I also agree with those who say lineage plays a huge part. Look at your average newly risen vamp and then look at Angelus and Spike. They had cunning way beyond what they should have, ruthless on a whole different level.

[littlewilly]

another thing to back up the 'bloodline affects a vamps strength' theory is james(heartthrob) who i think angelus sired, and penn(somnambulist) who he definetily sired.
they were both faster and stronger than the average vamp.

[Lyri]

Did it specifically say somewhere that Angeuls sired James and/or Elizabeth? 'Cause if it did, then I missed it. Everyone made a big deal out of Angeuls siring Penn and Drusilla, why wouldn't they make a big deal out of James and/or Elizabeth?

My theory is that Darla sired James, maybe in the hopes or recreating Angelus, but he was a big sap, SO in love, and sired Elizabeth to keep her with him.

But, if Darla did sire one or both of them, then they're still part of the Auralius line, still connceted to all that power, so my point is moot and I'm really just arguing for the sake of it here, lol.

[The Ferg]

1. The stupidest moment in Buffy history: S2, What's My Line: When Angel is locked in a cage by Kendra and can't break out, yet he can take down the monster coming out of the Hellmouth? <-- Just an example

2. I think LittleMissLikesToFight is right. It just depends on how much experience they have. Or maybe they just get lucky (Fool For Love).

[white avenger]

The fact that Buffy is stronger than Angel doesn't make her stronger than ALL vampires, or all demons, for that matter. Remember Luke from "Welcome To The Hellmouth" and "The Harvest?" "You're strong. I'M STRONGER." Kokistos was probably stronger than Buffy and Faith combined. Caleb, while not a vampire, was certainly stronger than either Buffy, Spike, or Faith. The uber-vamp was stronger than Buffy, but she eventually beat it. Physical strength isn't the only deciding factor in a fight. Angelus was able to beat Faith in Angel Season 4 simply because she was out of practice and relatively inexperienced, not because of the relative strength of the two, and the Beast was probably stronger by far than either of them (I know, he wasn't a vampire either). My point is that you can't just make a general statement that the Slayer is stronger than ANY vampire, or even a better fighter.

[littlewilly]

RE: the ferg.. sometimes people underestimate *average* vamps like sundae and the FFL vamp.
sundae almost had her.

RE: white avenger.. your right, have i not been sayin that slayers aint stronger than all vamps.

[caitaintdead]

Another point - Would it be accurate to say that vampires, like humans, are all individual, with different strengths and weaknesses, and created with different levels of strength?

I do think that in What's My Line the writers chose to overlook the lock on the door so that the story could continue along its path.

Edit:

Thanks! Alexa did a wonderful job on the banner... There's not enough Gileslove in the world so thought I'd spread some round!

[littlewilly]

I think the type of person they are definetly plays a part in how strong a vampire is.
As i said in a previous post, the main factors to me are bloodline, age, personality and intelligence, (and influence.)
Mabye if spike ran with a gang of weak vamps he wouldnt have the inspiration to be as strong and tough.

[celestialarrow]

Just an aside... I thought that the eidetic memory thing was specific to Angel as a person, not a generic vampire trait. It really would fit in with his well-established talent for art, having a remarkable eye & memory for detail.



When I said that I didn't mean that every vampire could do it I meant that it was a feat given simply to angel.

[littlewilly]

A feat given to him *possibly through the master*?

[InsaneMystic]

I've just finished rewatching S5 for the first time since ages, and it's very clearly established on screen that Buffy is FAR stronger than Spike (and I really don't consider him wimpy either, as vamps go). Spike couldn't even pick up the Troll's Hammer in "Forever", while Buffy not only picked it up easily, but used in it a long, outdrawn fight to knock the living daylights out of Glory in "The Gift". The difference in strength between the Slayer and even an above-average vamp seems to be quite considerable to the Slayer's favor... to match or even outrank her, a vamp would seem to have to be ancient & legendary (e.g. Kakistos).

[littlewilly]

Faith didnt seem to have That much trouble dealing with kakistos.
But if Buffy is That strong how come the master *could* have killed her and so could spike have.
We saw sundae take her. And what about luke.

But the hammer thing you said, thats the only instance i can think of that says buffys stronger

[InsaneMystic]

Well, how old was Luke anyway?

I admit there are inconsistencies here (and yes, Sundae is a DAMN good example), but the Hammer scenes can't be argued with... we just have to accept that Spike is physically weak compared to the Buffster.

[littlewilly]

I think in the first 3 or 4 season spike and angel would have been quite even with buffy in terms of strength
but i think buffy(like a vamp) got stronger over the years. s5 was when she took it to the next level.
But is it just buffy who you think is superior in strength or all slayers?

[InsaneMystic]

Good question... You're right, in S5 Buffy really started to go into serious training (including that meditation thing standing on one arm on this block... I love that scene when pesky little Dawn comes in and knocks the crystals over. :biggrin: )

Mh... I guess (and I admit it's not much more than a guess) any Slayer is physically stronger than a fledgling or low-to-average vampire, and a well-trained Slayer (as S5+ Buffy or someone like Kendra who grew into the Slayer role from years and years of determined training) would be stronger than almost any vampire apart from the truly legendary ones.

[littlewilly]

When a human becomes vampire, they get super strength, but if a slayer
was turned, would she have super super strength?

[Crazy Flakes]

When a human becomes vampire, they get super strength, but if a slayer
was turned, would she have super super strength?

That's the question a LOT of people have been asking, and I know that they'll at least have regular vampire strength.

But, after rewatching Buffy vs. Dracula, I started to notice that Dracula seemed to be convinced that Buffy would be an incredible vampire. I'm thinking that, if a Slayer is turned, they'll be as strong compared to vampires as a regular Slayer is compared to humans. I'm not entirely convinced, though...hopefully, they'll explore it more in season 8.

[Superstar]

More than anything, I think Buffy kept the population down by killing fledglings fresh out of the cemetery (before they could make new vamps) and by killing relatively young or inept vamps that had formed gangs. That's your average, run-of-the-mill, easy-to-slay vampire.
This is more or less what is meant by keeping the forces of good and evil balanced. Buffy's situation is a bit different as she is a stationary Slayer; Guardian of the Hellmouth. Kendra. for example, was based elsewhere and sent on missions alone to other parts of the globe.

This seemed to have given Buffy a home-court advantage since instead of hunting them down on their turf (like Faith did) the big bads slowly gravitated to her and the Hellmouth instead.

My theory is that Darla sired James, maybe in the hopes or recreating Angelus
Julie Benz is on record as stating that according to Darla's character backstory Angelus is her one and only.
This is played up in screen dialog as well.

The stupidest moment in Buffy history: S2, What's My Line: When Angel is locked in a cage by Kendra and can't break out, yet he can take down the monster coming out of the Hellmouth?
Yes, and touched upon in the commentary with self-depreciation along with various strength abilitys that were inconsistant.

When a human becomes vampire, they get super strength, but if a slayer was turned, would she have super super strength?
Actually, I think this is answered in "Nightmares".
As a Slayer, Buffy is easily defeated by the Ugly Man, but when turned into a VampSlayer, she hands him a heaping of hurt very quickly.

[CharmedSlayer85]

ok, 2 points here. 1. i always thought a slayers strength only MATCHED a vamps, and thats why you have gotta train her. i cant think of any examples to suggest slayers are naturally stronger, i thought the were just more trained and skilled. and plus buffys only so good coz she's the legendary, best ever slayer. lots of other slayers would hav been taken out years ago if they had been through what buffs been through.

Edit:

plus, buffs nearly died a few times if it wasnt for her being saved by someone or something. she ran away from sundae, reilly saved her from vamp in fool for love, plus you saw in the wish what she would be like if she didnt have the scoobies. an average slayer.


Slayers are slightly stronger than vampires and depending on how much they train they could probably become a lot stronger than vampires. Remember Angel mentioned himself when Buffy went to LA to get Faith and Angel hit Buffy he said "remember you're a little bit stronger than I am." Also what makes Buffy so legendary and the greatest slayer isn't necessarily her power, because she's no stronger than other slayers, but it's the fact that she never let slaying get in the way of her life, the fact that she slays and still has friends. The fact that her friends help her with her job. Something that no other slayer has done. Cause like you just said in The Wish she was easily taken out. And also let's not forget all the super training she did in Season Five with both Giles and the session she had with Spike and the training she's had with Angel. I'm sure no slayer has ever sparred with vampires cause they're evil, but again Buffy got the unique situation.

But yeah I think the strength of both slayers and vampires was the most inconsistant thing in the show.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, I don't think the strength of slayers was ever that inconsistant, but that of the vampires certainly was. All the fluctuations in Buffy's strength and fighting technique have mitigating factors; those usually relating to her self-confidence. That's why Sunday was initialy able to take her down. For the vamps, however, there is a lot of unexplainable shifting. Angel especially. You can't really compare between different vampires, but Angel's abilities vary greatly across the seasons. I do like the idea about the bloodline being a factor, but I think the family aspect is very important too. If someone is sired by a powerful vampire, then groomed and trained by them, they gain about 200 years of experience very quickly. That's why Spike and Angel were so powerful. They also have a sense of purpose, which is very powerful. There was also constant competition in that little group, which spurred them on. A regular deadbeat vampire, however, would hang about in a crypt for years doing nothing. Not entirely strength inducing.

About Darla: Someone mentioned that she was a Slayer killer. Who did she kill? Am I forgetting something obvious? The Master got Buffy (twice if you count the Wishverse), Drusilla got Kendra, and Spike got Nikki and the Chinese slayer. Did Angelus ever kill a slayer either? I'm confused now.

[Buffanator]

About Darla: Someone mentioned that she was a Slayer killer. Who did she kill? Am I forgetting something obvious? The Master got Buffy (twice if you count the Wishverse), Drusilla got Kendra, and Spike got Nikki and the Chinese slayer. Did Angelus ever kill a slayer either? I'm confused now.

To my knowledge, neither Darla nor Angelus has ever killed a slayer.

Edit:

As far as VAMPIRE strength goes, I think it is an individual thing... just like humans. I mean, some humans are stronger than others. Some martial artists have better moves than others (more training, etc.) And vamps also have weaknesses as well, specifically if they haven't fed in a long while, they become weak.

As for the cage that Angel was in... it also kept VampWillow and Oz in it too. So that must have been a very well put together cage! :lmao:

But think about S-7, when Buffy was fighting Caleb. It was a HARD fight. She could hardly get him away from her... but when Angel showed up, & hit Caleb, ol'preacher boy went flying across the floor. So what was that? Just Angel catching Caleb off guard?

There do seem to be many inconsistencies, but I think generally that a Slayer is stronger than a vampire, when pure strength is considered. However, as others have pointed out, strength is not all it takes to win a fight. Sometimes it's about the moves, sometimes the timing, sometimes the weapons, sometimes just pure luck of the draw.

[CharmedSlayer85]

Well, I don't think the strength of slayers was ever that inconsistant, but that of the vampires certainly was. All the fluctuations in Buffy's strength and fighting technique have mitigating factors; those usually relating to her self-confidence. That's why Sunday was initialy able to take her down. For the vamps, however, there is a lot of unexplainable shifting. Angel especially. You can't really compare between different vampires, but Angel's abilities vary greatly across the seasons. I do like the idea about the bloodline being a factor, but I think the family aspect is very important too. If someone is sired by a powerful vampire, then groomed and trained by them, they gain about 200 years of experience very quickly. That's why Spike and Angel were so powerful. They also have a sense of purpose, which is very powerful. There was also constant competition in that little group, which spurred them on. A regular deadbeat vampire, however, would hang about in a crypt for years doing nothing. Not entirely strength inducing.

About Darla: Someone mentioned that she was a Slayer killer. Who did she kill? Am I forgetting something obvious? The Master got Buffy (twice if you count the Wishverse), Drusilla got Kendra, and Spike got Nikki and the Chinese slayer. Did Angelus ever kill a slayer either? I'm confused now.


There have been many inconsistancies with slayer strength as well, in one episode Buffy can't kick down a metal door, in another episode she's picking up things that weigh several hundred pounds. In one episode Faith is so quick that she is able to be on the other side of the factory in the blink of an eye, yet in another episode Buffy's having trouble running from the cops. In two episodes Buffy is able to leap great distances, yet in another Faith can't do the same when fighting Angel in Orpheus. In one episode Buffy's able to bend prison bars to get Jonathon and Andrew out of jail but in the next she's having trouble escaping from the Watcher's Council when they kidnapped her as Faith and there are more but I just can't think right now. So yeah both slayer and vampire powers have been very inconsistant throughout the show.

[Lindsey McDonald]

There have been many inconsistancies with slayer strength as well, in one episode Buffy can't kick down a metal door, in another episode she's picking up things that weigh several hundred pounds. In one episode Faith is so quick that she is able to be on the other side of the factory in the blink of an eye, yet in another episode Buffy's having trouble running from the cops. In two episodes Buffy is able to leap great distances, yet in another Faith can't do the same when fighting Angel in Orpheus. In one episode Buffy's able to bend prison bars to get Jonathon and Andrew out of jail but in the next she's having trouble escaping from the Watcher's Council when they kidnapped her as Faith and there are more but I just can't think right now. So yeah both slayer and vampire powers have been very inconsistant throughout the show.

Yes, but as I said, there are pretty much always mitigating factors with the slayers. And across season comparisons don't really fly, as she gets much stronger as she progresses. Slayers cant just be at 100% all the time. When Faith was fighting Angelus she had already been beaten down (twice, IIRC). Ergo, less distance. She was still pretty damn spry though. Plus, Buffy was always stronger than Faith. She's been a slayer for two years more. In a one on one, serious fight she always had the edge.

When she was in Faith's body you can't really compare either, as she was disorientated and unused to this new (weaker) body. As I said, you have to take these events in context, remembering the Slayer's state of mind at the time, which is immensely important. Angel, however, really would be jumping up buildings one week then having to use a grappling hook the next, and his pain threshold was all over the place.

[Crazy Flakes]

Now that I think about it, I think both vampires and Slayers in general got stronger as the seasons progressed. Buffy's training probably had something to do with her increasing strength, but the difference between her strength in season 1 and seasons 6 and 7 is dramatic; I don't think training a little more can increase your strength ten-fold like Buffy's seemed to; but what about the vampires' increasing strength? I mean, in season 1, the newborn vamps were barely stronger than humans, but by season 7, they were tossing people around effortlessly and jumping over buildings and such. I guess it was just because they had better special effects later and were actually able to display convincing feats of superhuman strength.