Initiative: Actually one of the Best

[littlewilly]

Q: do yu think joss created the 'initiative' story purely to accommodate Spike???

i assume most fans would agreethat Spike is one of the, if not the best character ever. So without something capable of restraining spike(the chip) they'd have to kill him off eventually.

i suppose they could have returned his soul but that wuolda been stupid.
they could've done a spell but that would be cheesy n *unrealistic*

So there isnt much the writers could have done except create an 'initiative' to make spike a mainstay. considering Adam/initiative probably wasnt joss's ideal, first choice storyline,
he stil done well.

i imagine that while the writers were trying 2 decide how to make spike acceptable to the scoobies, thats when they thought ''what about a military agency'' and then they could even throw in the 'magic v science' and even a bonus 'Adam'.

[white avenger]

Q: do yu think joss created the 'initiative' story purely to accommodate Spike???

i assume most fans would agree that Spike is one of the, if not the best character ever. So without something capable of restraining spike(the chip) they'd have to kill him off eventually.
.

My friend, you are about to be shredded for that comment (not by me, I believe you). There are some positively VINDICTIVE people on this Board, and they get particularly nasty on the subject of who "the best character ever" is. Load your muskets and circle your wagons, cause there's war paint being applied even as I speak.

(Of course, now that I've warned you, they'll probably all lay low.)

As to your question, I don't think that the Initiative was actually created solely to help with the development of Spike as a character, in fact I'm not positive that Spike was originally planned to be as major a character as he became. Probably the chemistry between Sarah and James did more to accomplish that than anything else. Probably, Riley actually WAS supposed to be the "long haul guy," but it just never worked out.

That said, I do believe that, without the elements of the Initiative and Spike's chip, Seasons 5, 6, and 7 would probably not have been nearly as interesting, because there is no way that an un-chipped Spike would have survived very long around Buffy and her crew.

[palabravampiress]

Time for my two cents:

I DON'T think the Initiative was written in just to accommodate Spike. I actually think it was the other way around: Spike was written into the Initiative because that was convenient and consistent with season 4's general Sci-Fi/Frankenstein/Cold War comic book tone.

I think the Initiative was always supposed to be around and that the Riley story (including his Frankenstein-like juiced up heart and his "brother" relationship with Adam) was always in the plan. Season 4 was about introducing Buffy to the wider world -- the adult world. Part of that world, obviously, is how the secret government types react to the Hellmouth. Buffy is a new archetype. Joss created her, deliberately, to turn the old archetype on its head. Riley and the Initiative represent the old archetype: a super-powered, clean-cut, corn-fed All-American Boy out there fighting the bad guys with the government at his side. I definitely think the Initiative was integral to the overall plot of season 4 WAY before they figured out that it would also work to bring Spike back into the mix.

[littlewilly]

(i hope people try to shred me)

Now. Spike. yeah, you are correct. Spike was only supposed to be in school hard.
He done well so they wanted him to stay on till whats my line 2.
But being so popular they just had to keep him on.

So s3 was already planned. No place for Spike there.
But s4 wasnt planned. Thats why i think initiative was created for Spike.

I mean what other way could they have made spike a non threat???

Edit:

On the grand scheme of things, Spike was very important to btvs.
The initiative wasnt really

[palabravampiress]

I agree that they decided they wanted to keep Spike in and around the proposed timeline. I just don't think they wrote the Initiative into season 4 just for him.

As far as the how else could they have kept him question goes, well... the same effect could have been reached with magic, maybe by employing some sort of a curse. Perhaps love. Perhaps an apocalypse with which Spike agreed to help in return for amnesty (a la season 2). Perhaps amnesia so that he didn't know he was a vampire (that would have been funny). I'm sure Joss & co. could have come up with a zillion ways to get Spike muzzled and in Sunnydale. Instead, I think they (rightly) chose the way that fit best with the season: Sci-Fi. It's much easier to write one character into the existing season than it is to write an entire season around the need to bring back one character.

[Spuffy is true love]

I think the initiative was written in response to the Mayor. They had to come up with a bigger explanation as to why there was so much knowledge and mysticism in the government. Like when the government came and took marcy away in season 1 and their knowledge of Vampires, etc. I think they wanted to explore that arena more and they ended up with the initiative.....unfortunatly (i'm not a big fan of season 4) with Spike yes he was only supposed to be in season 2, then they brought him into season 3 for one episode. I think after that the writers realized that with Angel out of the picture they had to bring in a new vampire that was going to be Buffy's Love/Hate relationship. They couldn't go to Darla or Dru, because they didn't want a female vampire, so they went to the most popular male vampire after Angel...Spike. That's why he was written into season 4. With the chip they just had to find a way to tame him because if not he would have been running rampant and would have been killed eventually. The chip was a way to make Spike a regular character without giving him a soul all of a sudden. It was also the start of Spike attaining his soul.

[littlewilly]

I agree that they decided they wanted to keep Spike in and around the proposed timeline. I just don't think they wrote the Initiative into season 4 just for him.

As far as the how else could they have kept him question goes, well... the same effect could have been reached with magic, maybe by employing some sort of a curse. Perhaps love. Perhaps an apocalypse with which Spike agreed to help in return for amnesty (a la season 2). Perhaps amnesia so that he didn't know he was a vampire (that would have been funny). I'm sure Joss & co. could have come up with a zillion ways to get Spike muzzled and in Sunnydale. Instead, I think they (rightly) chose the way that fit best with the season: Sci-Fi. It's much easier to write one character into the existing season than it is to write an entire season around the need to bring back one character.

Im going to go through the points you made.
you've got to remember, Since season 2, Joss wanted to keep spike on full time. Not just another season.
Now, i know on the surface it seems unlikely that they would create initiative just for Spike.
BUT, as i put in my first post, because Angel was cursed they couldnt really use ANOTHER curse, its like(been there, done that)

As for another type of spell, what sort of feasible magic spell could they really have done?
Love, apocalypse, Amnesia!!! they're planning to keep him on for the remainder of BTVS,
so a love spell that lasts for years(doubt it) Apocalypse(again?) Amnesia(wouldnt work)

They had to keep it new and interesting, i've tried to think of other good ways they could have integrated him into the scoobies, but i cant. They were planning to Keep spike on before the wrote s4. So if they killed spike off in s2, they may have done something vastly different from the initiative.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

The initiative maybe wasnt overall, but you dont know what the original plans for it were. And if Riley was supposed to be "long haul" guy (assuming Spike WAS killed early on as planned) then maybe it would've had more of an important role.

Besides, its important enough. It really provokes more into the whole thought that buffy and her gang were the only ones dealing with what was going on... and then you wonder, even beyond the government, what sort of things are going on around the world, or at other hellmouths (for ex,cleveland). It really makes you wonder because i think sometimes the audience gets to trapped in sunnydale we dont realize hey, theres tons of demonic crap going on all over the place.

so, i think the initiative was good in raising that, as well as the question of morality when it comes to demons and such. Whats the "right" way to deal with them, etc.

[littlewilly]

SPUFFY, thats a good point about angel leaving so they needed a new love interest.
But i think from season 2 the writers knew they wanted spike to be in it for good.

Edit:

Hi littlemisslikestofight!!

season4 is my favorite. i loved the initiative story.

[Joyce Summers]

I think the point a lot of people are trying to make here Lee, and I agree with them is that while The Initiative did allow them to muzzle Spike so to speak, the existence of that story arc did not exist entirely because of Spike. More that both concepts- The Initiative and having Spike around- ended up being integrated into one another.
I personally can't think of how else Spike could have been kept on the show, but then I'm not one of the writers and I'm sure they had a million and one ideas of how they could get Spike as a regular in Season 4 BESIDES the Initiave concept. . But after they came up with the arc of Initiative it would have all just fit together conveniently.

As for keeping Spike on in season 2. I don't think he was ever meant for just the one episode of School Hard, they were always going to keep him on till What's my Line as that would have been the climax of the Drusilla arc, but in between School Hard and filming What's my Line? the fan base for the character grew for the audience and the writers and instead of being killed off in the church fire, he was merely...disabled.
They knew then they wanted him in for the rest of season 2, but I don't think they ever overly planned for him to be a season regular after that. It was only with the good chemistry he had with all of the characters in Lover's Walk and the fact the spin-off Angel had already been green-lit and they needed another vampire to star on Buffy that it all came together.

[littlewilly]

RE: JOYCES POST

i suppose i wasnt clear enough, i agree with you that they didnt do the initiative main arc just so they could chip spike.
I think that when they decided they were going to chip him by means of the initiative, they realized they could do a lot more with the initiative than just chip spike.
But it may have been that they thought of the initiative in the first place because of spike.

i saw in an interview with joss in(i *think* it was s2 bonus material) joss says that spike was meant to be killed in school hard when he wrote it. but when james marsters impressed him in auditioning/filming that he wanted to keep him for the full first half of s2.

[Dlou444]

There are plenty of ways they could have muzzled Spike. Personally, I'd have found it amusing it Dru had thrown some sort of curse his way. Not like Angel's, but one. Something that would do more of what the chip did, make it very painful to kill people and then he'd have to just sit and watch while Buffy killed him. (At least in Dru's mind.) Something that wasn't easy to figure out a reverse for because Dru's batty and who knows where she got this.

Or, it would have been fun for him to come back to town and do a kind of "surveillance" of Buffy like he did in Halloween and slowly come to realize he loved her. Then just be lurking in alleys watching her fight and stepping in at the last moment (in secret) and killing off anyone who hurt her. Leaving little notes to help them all while still pretending to be "bad".

I have a hard time thinking they wrote the Initiative FOR Spike because the writing for him getting captured and chipped wasn't as well written as it could have been. It felt like they just tossed it in and explained it later. From what I remember about the first time I saw it, I was VERY confused.

I DO think it was handy. And that it's likely that while they were planning it, they said, "HEY! This could be a great way to give Spike a more evolving story". But, there would have been less outlandish ways to give Spike more time to develop than that one. IF that was the only real purpose of it.

[littlewilly]

just saying i think wondering how to keep spike on gave joss the idea for the initiative. im not saying the y done the main arc all for spikes benefit.

that drusilla ideas quite good though. maybe comething like dru dosnt like the way spikes always on about buffy. so she somehow *cursed* him, so he couldnt kill. keepin dru in it would have been pretty good.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

yeah but joss planned things SO far in advance. Seasons in advance. The initiative could've been an idea even before they decided not to kill off Spike.

[littlewilly]

Yeah, i know i could be way wrong, my theory fit well though. but yeah i could be wrong

[Vampmogs]

you've got to remember, Since season 2, Joss wanted to keep spike on full time. Not just another season.

No he didn't. In season two Joss realised he didn't want to kill Spike off. He stated he didn't want to make Spike a regular until he saw him in 'Lovers Walk' during s3 of the show.

And originally Joss had intended to bring back *both* Spike and Dru, having them make up when Spike went to find her at the end of 'Lovers Walk.' But Juliet was unavailable to come on full time, so they just kept Spike instead.

There's no evidence to suggest they created the Initinative to accomodate Spike anymore than there is that they created the storyline to accomodate Riley.

Joss Whedon actually stated that they very rarley planned Spike's character arc from season to season. He was never intended to become a love interest for Buffy until near the end of s4. He was never intended to get his soul until half way through season six and Steven De' Knight stated they didn't even plan the attempted rape scene until a couple of weeks before they started writing 'Seeing Red.'

On the grand scheme of things, Spike was very important to btvs.

He was important to the series without a doubt. But not so important they'd create the entire seasonal arc to accomodate his character, he wasn't that vital to the series. The only character who's truly that vital to the series is Buffy. Spike was a very good character but s3 was the highest rating season in the shows run, and he only appeared once, there's no reason they'd create Adam and the Initinative and Maggie Walsh and Riley all for Spike.

[littlewilly]

i definetly got my words mixed up, i wasnt that clear.
i dont think they did the initiative/adam/magic v science arc all for ,or because, of spike.

i just think its very possible that while wondering about making spike a main guy and how to tame him, thats maybe when he came up with the idea for the initiative. then maybe relized he could make a full arc out of the initiative, and relized it would all fit together. im also not suggesting spike is bigger/more imortant than the scoobies

[Vampmogs]

i definetly got my words mixed up, i wasnt that clear.
i dont think they did the initiative/adam/magic v science arc all for ,or because, of spike.

i just think its very possible that while wondering about making spike a main guy and how to tame him, thats maybe when he came up with the idea for the initiative. then maybe relized he could make a full arc out of the initiative, and relized it would all fit together. im also not suggesting spike is bigger/more imortant than the scoobies

I could be wrong so don't take my word for this, but I think I remember reading a quote from Joss saying during s4 they were trying to think of a way to keep Spike around without him constantly trying to kill Buffy or her killing him, so they thought he could be chipped. From memory they created the Initinative first then used it to their advantage with Spike? But I could be wrong on that one.

[littlewilly]

yeah mines is just a theory. hope i didnt sound too stubborn and know it all!
for all i know Joss could have thought on an initiative concept before spike was even on buffy.