Quartoth

[littlewilly]

I was watchin s3 there. *the price*. it got me wondering. Wondering why id never thought of it before. Quartath. It dosnt ruin the overall season(or anything really) but just a point i thought was a mistake.

This is meant to be the baddest, worst of the worst, hell dimension.
Which probably means ALOT worse than earth. Yet at the end of the price, a huge, powerful(looking) intimidating hell beast drops through the portal, followed by Connor who simply backhands it away(possibly kills it as we dont see it again).

Theres no doubt conner is strong but we see later that earth dimension people, Faith and Angel(probably Groo too) are, in the end, easily superior fighters. When you consider the tough trials A.I. and Scoobies have gone through, and how easily Angel and faith(who are by no means the strongest) handled him, It dosnt make the *DESTROYER* or the worst of the worst hell dimensions sound that bad. no worse than Earth.
so maybe they shouldnt have made it out like its that bad.::bbat::::bbat::

[white avenger]

Maybe Quartoth's reputation as a super bad hell dimension/world was exaggerated just to torture Angel more. We know that an normal human (Holtz) was able to not only survive there with nothing more than his bare hands and the clothes on his back, but to also care for, raise, and even educate to some extent, a child. Just the task of feeding an infant must have been monumental, but he managed to do it. To my way of thinking, that would indicate, would REQUIRE, even, that Holtz was able to get some sort of assistance almost as soon as he got to Quartoth, otherwise he never would have survived a week, let alone fifteen years. Certainly, it must have been a violent, dangerous place, but probably no worse than LA after the fall, possibly not even as bad.

[celestialarrow]

You know having Connor called the Destroyer was a very bad idea because connor wasn't all that powerful compare to most characters in buffy-verse(Buffy, Angel, and Faith). Ithinking if he sent 16 or eighteen years in Quo-toth why wasn't he a better fighter or stronger. I mean he evidently had to fight for his life on a daily basis why wasn't he better he certainly didn't deserve the mantle of the Destoryer. I really dont get why those slug things ran from him.

[white avenger]

You know having Connor called the Destroyer was a very bad idea because connor wasn't all that powerful compare to most characters in buffy-verse(Buffy, Angel, and Faith). Ithinking if he sent 16 or eighteen years in Quo-toth why wasn't he a better fighter or stronger. I mean he evidently had to fight for his life on a daily basis why wasn't he better he certainly didn't deserve the mantle of the Destoryer. I really dont get why those slug things ran from him.

Connor was a very good fighter considering his age and experience, but you're comparing him to three of the four most powerful fighters in the entire Buffyverse. By that standard, he would be ranked as number 5 in the world, not bad for a teenaged boy. By the time he reaches maturity, he might kick Angel out of the number 3, right below Buffy and Spike. That's pretty good in anyone's book.

[Julian]

Hello I'm pretty new here and I just want to put in my thoughts.

First of all, Connor's nickname, the Destroyer, does not necessarily refer to his fighting ability. Spike and Gunn for example, though formidable fighters were never considered as a threat by the circle of the black thorn. They were mostly worried about Angel and Wesley. Though they participated in the plan, it was Angel who basically started the hammer blow.

Now to Connor. Keep in mind, that this kid fathered a hell god and also killed her at the same time. He was destined to kill Sahjahn who basically kicked Angel's ass. He was, to quote that demon from Jasmine's homeworld, "Not supposed to happen." And of course, a lot of things about Connor are paradox. He was prophesied to be unborn and yet Sahjahn who could jump from one timeline to another couldn't even escape his reach.

There's even a theory among the Connor community a few years back said that Connor may be a potential hell god, because of the Jasmine thing. So Connor being the Destroyer is about a lot more than just his fighting skill. It's also about his destiny, his cunning and the lengths which he is willing to go (very far IMO)

Lastly, Quortoth - was it deadly? Two signs point to yes. 1) It had no portals. This means that it was probably a prison hell dimension, a place were demons send their demons. 2) Lorne said that his demon contacts feared that place.

That's what I think.

[littlewilly]

Quartoth couldnt have been that bad despite what people say, but, Sahjahn kicking Angels ass, you've got me there.
But Sahjahn lost the time/jump thing when he was made corporial(was he not?)
And i aint read the comics but isnt Connor a good boy now, going to college and being normal?

[Entiel]

Well I believe that at first they wanted to make a big intro for Connor(remember the first scene where he kicks everybody's ass?)but then realized that he couldn't be stronger than the main character..also Connor has some abilities that even Angel does not posses(like tracking so well)which can come handy in a hell dimension...

[DrusillaRox]

I dunno, connor was pretty hot stuff with the fighting...... thats gotta be the only way he survived in this freaky hell dimension, right

and WHAT was up with the talking hamburger? was wesley on something???

[Dlou444]

Maybe he's just used to fighting the demons of Quartoth and not your average beings here.

Just a thought.

[palabravampiress]

I think I agree with Julian and WA. Not only WAS he a really good fighter, but he seemed to be in the business of actively hunting down and killing demons of pretty much any sort. If I had some scary, supernatural creature chasing down and killing all of my kind for no apparent reason, I might call him "the Destroyer," too. Then, there is all of the weird, epic mythology surrounding Connor. He's got the mythical makings of a God, if you ask me.

And as far as fighting ability goes... I think I agree with WA's ranking system. I put Buffy at the top because she was able to defeat Spike, Angel, and Faith at one time or another. Next, Spike, because he was able to defeat Angel once and for all there in the end and his fighting usually matched Buffy's. Buffy and Spike never really got to have a to-the-death sort of fight, but she DID drop an organ on him. Also, she could lift the troll hammer and he couldn't. That's a hard one to call, though, because they are pretty evenly matched. I rank Angel next, because he gave both Buffy and Spike as good as he got and nearly offed them both. Next comes Faith, who was gutted by Blondie and got her butt kicked good and proper by Angelus. I think it's fair to rank Connor after these guys, at least until we see good, knock-down, drag-out, to-the-death style fighting between Connor and Buffy, Spike, Angel, and/or Faith.

In his home Hell Dimension, though, I'm doubting they had heroes. He may have been the equivalent to Buffy there, who knows? Maybe that's the difference. In Hell, Connor fought demons. Here, he sometimes has to fight heroes.

[white avenger]

I think I agree with Julian and WA. Not only WAS he a really good fighter, but he seemed to be in the business of actively hunting down and killing demons of pretty much any sort. If I had some scary, supernatural creature chasing down and killing all of my kind for no apparent reason, I might call him "the Destroyer," too. Then, there is all of the weird, epic mythology surrounding Connor. He's got the mythical makings of a God, if you ask me.

And as far as fighting ability goes... I think I agree with WA's ranking system. I put Buffy at the top because she was able to defeat Spike, Angel, and Faith at one time or another. Next, Spike, because he was able to defeat Angel once and for all there in the end and his fighting usually matched Buffy's. Buffy and Spike never really got to have a to-the-death sort of fight, but she DID drop an organ on him. Also, she could lift the troll hammer and he couldn't. That's a hard one to call, though, because they are pretty evenly matched. I rank Angel next, because he gave both Buffy and Spike as good as he got and nearly offed them both. Next comes Faith, who was gutted by Blondie and got her butt kicked good and proper by Angelus. I think it's fair to rank Connor after these guys, at least until we see good, knock-down, drag-out, to-the-death style fighting between Connor and Buffy, Spike, Angel, and/or Faith.

In his home Hell Dimension, though, I'm doubting they had heroes. He may have been the equivalent to Buffy there, who knows? Maybe that's the difference. In Hell, Connor fought demons. Here, he sometimes has to fight heroes.

I ranked Faithas #4 mainly because of her relative lack of experience. She didn'e get to fight very many demons during her period of incarceration (maybe an occasional blood sucking lawyer, but that would be about it). Given a few years' more slaying, and I think she'll knock Angel out of the #3 spot. As for #1 and #2, well, she's not THAT good.

[littlewilly]

Well if were going plain and simply by the individuals fighting power and not including defeats byluck or magic, heres a list of who could whip Connor and probably the Slayers and Vamps too.

The Master (definetly)
Adam (definetly)
Glory (definetly)
Illyria (definetly)
Hamilton (definetly)
Caleb (definetly)
Turok an (possibly)
Kakistos (possibly)
Sundae (give him a good fight at least)
Penn (well, he beat Angels ass)
Dracula (imo, definetly)
Vamp Gunn (hell yeah)

But, if you're just talking about the allies, then yeah, He's up there.

Heres my allies list

1. Buffy
2. Faith
3. Angel
4. Spike
5. Connor

Edit:

I wanna add Groo to my list too...

[MSchett]

my good guys list looks a little different

1 Buffy
2 Angel/Spike (they both have some wins/losses on each other)
3 Faith
4 Weakened Illyria
5 Connor

[lemst6]

Just an idea, maybe because Connor wasn't normal to begin with, when he went to Quartoth his strengths were amplified, kinda like how Angel's two personalities reacted differently in Pylea. I mean, since the writers never explain this, the reasoning is up for grabs, I guess you could come up with any kind of reasoning and it would be just as good as the next persons.

[scobro]

Hi, i am the next person. When Angel went to the Home Office it was established that the home office was located in Hell. Hell turned out to be on Earth. Now one would assume that a Hell dimension would not be as bad as Hell itself, or it would cease to be merely a dimension and become a Hell proper. Ergo, in the Hell dimension Conner was the big chesse, but in Hell itself he was less than some of the other cheesers.

[lemst6]

^ You know, I thought about that, but then I thought it's probably more likely that it was just a discrepancy in writing the episodes. But at the same time, they refer to different dimensions of hell and the one that Angel went to, is written like it is a lot worse than earth. I think in the world of Buffy, hell is circumstantial. Buffy thinks that our dimension is hell because she was in heaven, but Connor would probably view our dimension as heaven because Quartoth was such a bad place. (or so it seems, i guess that's what we're debating here...)

[scobro]

but Connor would probably view our dimension as heaven because Quartoth was such a bad place.


I have to strongly disagree with that; with the exception of the brief scenes we had of him in the last season I would say that Connor viewed Earth as Hell.

His life was much easier in Quartoth; it was simple there, you had right and wrong. When he first appeared he was 'at peace' (albeit a violent cuss) yet the longer he stayed on Earth the harder it became for him. There was evil and darkness on Earth that he never experienced in Quartoth and it greatly affected his mindset.

I cannot see how he could view Earth as anything but a hell.