Drowning Spike

[Dyoll]

When the first kidnap spike and torture him the torakan (ubervamp) keeps drowning him and spike is struggling. Angel is locked in a box and put in the ocean for days and doesn’t drown or struggle. So surly spike can’t drown with no need to breath.... any one got a reason for this??

[littlewilly]

there is another bit in Tabula Rasa when just before Spike enters the Magic Box, he takes a few breaths to make it look like he's been running and is now out of breath.??? probably another few examples too. just inconsistancy i think

[white avenger]

As for the drowning, the liquid he's having his head shoved into might not be water, but something that vampires are allergic to (grasping at straws for this).

As for the breathing, we've seen vampires, not just Angel and Spike, breathe before, even breathe hard when exerting themselves. Realistically, the actors HAVE to breathe, but for the sake of the fiction, vampires have to fill their lungs with air in order to speak or to smoke, plus the fact that breathing is an involuntary reflex of the body, and may remain so when people become vampires. Either that, or the need for a vampire to hyperventilate might just be a psychological thing that they do to relieve stress.

[Spuffy is true love]

Well first, when Angel was put into the Box he was sealed shut completely so no water got in at all. The reason he was all disoriented was b/c of the lack of blood that he hadn't eaten in a long time.

Second, I think that the difference between vampires and zombies needs to be determined. I think that the zombies are really the undead people but they were raised by forms of magic. Vampires on the other hand are living things. They are a demon that has taken the form of a human. Like it is explained in the WttH, the last demon to leave this Demension fed off a human, mixed their blood. They now walk the earth half human, half demon. Like Anya explains in Graduation Day, no one has seen a true blooded demon. Everything that Buffy has fought has been some form of half-breed. Through this explanation I think it can be said that Vampires do breathe, but the act of suffocating will not kill them. The only things that can kill a vampire are sunlight, holy water, stake to the heart, beheading, fire, etc. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

[Aussie]

I started a thread simular to this a few months ago, some very interesting thoughts on the subject :p (including giant martinis lol)
Im not quite sure how to do links so I hope this works...
Vampire Question - Buffy-Boards (http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=35990&highlight=vampire+question)

[eunsoma]

Well first, when Angel was put into the Box he was sealed shut completely so no water got in at all. The reason he was all disoriented was b/c of the lack of blood that he hadn't eaten in a long time.

Second, I think that the difference between vampires and zombies needs to be determined. I think that the zombies are really the undead people but they were raised by forms of magic. Vampires on the other hand are living things. They are a demon that has taken the form of a human. Like it is explained in the WttH, the last demon to leave this Demension fed off a human, mixed their blood. They now walk the earth half human, half demon. Like Anya explains in Graduation Day, no one has seen a true blooded demon. Everything that Buffy has fought has been some form of half-breed. Through this explanation I think it can be said that Vampires do breathe, but the act of suffocating will not kill them. The only things that can kill a vampire are sunlight, holy water, stake to the heart, beheading, fire, etc. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Hey, when Angel was sunk to the bottom of the ocean, the box wasn't sealed, there was actually a big rectangular window thingy in front of his face. The 'window' was closed off only by mesh, so yes water did enter... I think that's why when he was rescued his skin was all cracked etc... And I don't know if a box full of that much air would sink to the bottom of the sea anyway??

Also, vamps are dead.. Well yer, living dead, but dead.. The human dies and then the demon takes over, it's not really a 'shared body' thing, all the vampire has is that human's memories... This is why human souls move on (perhaps to an afterlife), and can be conjured when a vampire is re-insouled, say for example; Angel. When Darla sired him in the 1700s, his human side (Liam) died, and the soul would have moved on.. This is why Angelus was able to kill remorsefully for all those years. When Angelus was reinsouled by gypsies, that soul returned to the body which is used to inhabit (which, currently had the vampire; Angelus living in it). 'Angel' as we know him, is the vampire with the soul, but none of him is human (except maybe his conscience, but that's a different argument).

[Joyce Summers]

Well, this is just my thought on the matter, but we know vampires have a habit of breathing like they did when they were alive. (I know this was only created by the writers for the practical fact that the actors have to breathe but work with me here). After doing it for so long, for however long they lived, it's kinda hard to kick the habit. Hence why we seem the breathing after running, after sex and breathing for things such as smoking, talking, singing.

So, now The First was torturing Spike quite a fair bit, to the point that he was beginning to get pretty delirious. So torture plus slight delirium could possibly make Spike forget that he didn't have to breathe. All he knew was he was shoved into water, and all his instincts told him he needed to breathe. I suppose it's kinda like when people are put to sleep for operations and once they are told to breath they stop breathing properly because subconsciously they don't want to breathe the gas in, even though it's relatively harmless. You can't help how you instinctively react and I think Spike's instinct was Water=Drowning=Need air. The fact that he could choose to stop breathing at will, would probably not ever occur to them in the middle of the physical and emotional pain of being tortured.

[The Kinslayer]

I absolutely love reading theories of things that doesn´t seem to make sence. And sometimes someones theory makes a lot of sence and you always get a new angle to it. "Hmm, I didn´t think about that." There´s always peolpe who know something you don´t. And of course it´s fun to speculate.

I do how ever think most of these "mistakes" (sorry, can´t come up with the right word) comes from two things. 1. Writers can´t remeber every single thing. People makes mistakes, even writers. 2. They don´t care. They write good scenes. "Ok, so we´re going to torture Spike, how should we do it?" "Drowning him sounds like a good idé." "Aren´t you forgetting something?" "Vampires don´t breathe." "Who cares?" "It´ll be good televison." Or it could be a blend of the two.

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

I agree with the whole "habit of breathing" idea. Its like, the air isn't actually doing anything for them to sustain them.

It makes me think of when Darla is in the back of the car, i think in the beginning of Lullaby (may be wrong) and Wesley goes "Breathe like this... hee hee hooo hee hee hoo" to help with her contractions and she goes "I don't BREATHE!" but yet rght after sounds all out of breath. it made me laugh.

[Blondie Bear]

It could also have been a control issue. Spike doesn't give up control easily, and being thrown around like a rag doll would not have been his idea of a good time. It's possible, in the fighting to NOT have his head shoved under water, that he sucked some into his lungs by accident. And whether you need air to survive or not, it can't be a pleasant feeling to have your lungs fill up with water. It's possible that the torture wasn't about drowning, but about the First showing that it was stronger (or at least had henchmen that were stronger) than Spike.

[littlewilly]

I absolutely love reading theories of things that doesn´t seem to make sence. And sometimes someones theory makes a lot of sence and you always get a new angle to it. "Hmm, I didn´t think about that." There´s always peolpe who know something you don´t. And of course it´s fun to speculate.

I do how ever think most of these "mistakes" (sorry, can´t come up with the right word) comes from two things. 1. Writers can´t remeber every single thing. People makes mistakes, even writers. 2. They don´t care. They write good scenes. "Ok, so we´re going to torture Spike, how should we do it?" "Drowning him sounds like a good idé." "Aren´t you forgetting something?" "Vampires don´t breathe." "Who cares?" "It´ll be good televison." Or it could be a blend of the two.


I think Joss and the writers do these things on purpose so the fans have things to discuss about the show, so we can all give our theory otherwise if they gave a reason for everything we wouldnt have anything to talk about on here. Id think they planned it this way.
But i dont agree with the idea that vamps breathe out of habit. I think its just a case of the actors aint going to hold their breath for every scene.

[Natasha1988]

Maybe Its Holy Water Spike Is Getting His Head Pushed Into (Just A Suggestion Haha)

[Canon]

Maybe Its Holy Water Spike Is Getting His Head Pushed Into (Just A Suggestion Haha)

That's what I've always assumed.

[Blondie Bear]

Maybe Its Holy Water Spike Is Getting His Head Pushed Into (Just A Suggestion Haha)

Interesting theory, but wouldn't Spike have been seriously burned when he came out of the water if it had been holy water? Wouldn't the ubervamp also have been? Mostly, they just looked wet.

[Bluebird]

Talking of vampires breathing, how did Spike subdue Druscilla in Becoming part 2?

[Blondie Bear]

white avenger agrees: When Anya was briefing the Potentials about the Ubervamps, she said that holy water didn't effect them.

But Buffy threw holy water on the first ubervamp and it caused welts and burns. So while it might not be as horribly disfiguring or painful as it is to normal vamps, holy water does hurt them.

[InsaneMystic]

I'm not sure it makes any real sense, but I just got the idea it might be "diluted" holy water... not strong enough to burn the skin, but enough to irritate the tissue inside mouth, nose and throat if you "drown" a vamp in it. Like, e.g. mix 90% normal water with 10% holy water... might feel for Spike like you breath noxious fumes that don't send your skin weltering, but make you cough painfully and send your eyes tearing like crazy.

[eunsoma]

lol just about water getting into the box when angel went underwater, rewatch the episode lol you can hear him talking clearly so theres a whole... WATER GETS IN lol

[Buffanator]

My .02

Fact: vampires don't HAVE TO breathe. But they CAN.

Just like with food... they don't HAVE to eat - but they CAN. Or drink (except blood, of course) but they can. Spike smoked - you have to inhale to smoke (no matter WHAT Bill Clinton thinks, LOL!) - and he drank liquor. Angel & Spike both ate stuff... they seemed to enjoy donuts & chocolate & so forth. Spike talked to Andrew about those onion things at the Bronze - remember? But clearly they didn't have to eat...

So - maybe Spike being "drowned" wasn't the point. Maybe it was that he was being choked - consistently - over & over. No - it didn't/wouldn't kill him. But it surely didn't make him feel all fluffy inside, either. ;)

[Monty]

I think it's purely psychological for Spike... He never stopped breathing, so even though he doesn't physically need it, the lack of it makes him feel like suffocating, or, in this case, drowning? Does that make any sense?

[Lindsey McDonald]

I always assumed it was holy water too. Never really thought about it. I do think a Vamp could choke though, and that would cause them to struggle. It wouldn't kill him, but he would want to get out of the water.

[LifeIsJustThis]

Not sure about the Spike thing but wasn't it the case with Angel that no water got into the casket so he would die by starvation, not drowning? I could be wrong..need to rewatch that ep...

[RockManic]

I think it boils down to the fact that even though vampires don't need to breathe, they clearly do at least need to simulate breath to pass as human. Obviously the truth behind the whole deal is that the human actor can't be expected to not breathe during filming but if you think about the logic of the fiction, vampires pass as human for a reason, that being to get close to their victims. If that wasn't the intent then why retain a human form at all? If they didn't want the pretense then they may as well keep the bumpy and fangy look all the time.

With that in mind it makes sense that psychologically all the mannerisms and habits that come with breathing would remain from the vampire's human existence. Like the feeling of being out of breath after running, for example. The reality would be that they actually don't need to breathe anymore heavily than normal but the instinct would be to do so, again as a subconscious part of maintaining their human guise.

Also it obvious that a vampire can intake air when needed. The fact that we have seen vampires blowing out flames and the like shows that they are capable of using their lungs. The only difference is that it's not required for them to stay alive (or undead, if you like).

So when it comes to Spike being "drowned", what are we actually seeing? Given all the other effects of breathing we know a vampire mimics it's very likely that their instinct when having their head pushed under water is to choke. It would never kill them but that doesn't mean it's an experience they find enjoyable. As humans we don't die if we have our heads pushed under water for short periods but it's still not an enjoyable thing to have done to you when it's out of your control.

I just tend to see this as an attempt to unsettle Spike. In no way a danger to him but still a nasty form of torture to shake him up.

[hyperballadbrad]

lol some of the responses here are so funny

Just take it as artistic liscence to show struggle *shrug* SOme people shouldn't take things so seriously

[RockManic]

lol some of the responses here are so funny

Just take it as artistic liscence to show struggle *shrug* SOme people shouldn't take things so seriously

Don't think anyone is taking it seriously so much as doing what all fans of all fantasy type shows have done since the internet began. Try to find logical reasons within the story for something we all know didn't make a great deal of sense or was a production error. Don't think any of us are losing sleep over these little issues but this kinda thing is part of the fun of a fandom.

You really should avoid Stargate and Doctor Who forums if you don't want to be seeing fanwank solutions for onscreen errors. The Gate and Who fandoms put Buffy fans to shame with how they can create theories to make errors go away. ;)