Rant about (Doris)!

[littlewilly]

Episode 'Gone', idiot 'Doris'.
when that social worker Doris turns up, even though Buffy wasnt
working, Spike was hanging around and then the 'magic weed', despite
all that(which i dont see a problem with) that idiot would still have taken dawn if she had her way.
i aint against her just because i like Buffy and Dawn and i know Doris didnt
know the full situation but i felt she was being so judgemental and i hate people like her.
Think how if she managed to take Dawn away, how much it may have messed her up. maybe Buffy too.
yeah, with people like Doris, who needs enemies.

[LorneyTunes]

she is one word a complete MOO , my mum was a foster parent for many years and some social workers can get it wrong . seperating some familys isn't just, its wrong in some cases the right thing but in Buffys case Doris was just lookin for an excuse bring her down x

[Blondie Bear]

Look at it from Doris' perspective, though. If you had walked into someone's house and all of that had happened (remember, you wouldn't know that vampires and magic are real, that Buffy's still recovering from being dead, etc.), would you think that it was a good environment for a child? I know I wouldn't. I think Doris had a point; it really wasn't a great environment for Dawn. But she wouldn't have been happy anywhere else (not that she was very happy there, but still).

[littlewilly]

yeah but, what did she see that was that bad? She didnt seem to even want to give anyone a chance.
Her whole attitude was bad.
Put it this way, i would want more facts and to understand the situation before acting like a stuck up narrow minded fool.
It was immoral. She didnt see any evidence of a teenager being mistreated.

[Blondie Bear]

What did she see that was bad? Are you serious?
1. Buffy's scatterbrainedness. She forgot their appointment. Dawn was already late for school.
2. Dawn's comment about getting in another car accident.
3. Spike, who she assumed was Buffy's shiftless, layabout boyfriend--never a good role model for a young girl.
4. Willow, and the whole awkward explanation for her being there--right after Buffy had just claimed that she and Dawn were the only two who lived there (technically a lie).
5. The "magic weed," which Doris (understandably) took for marijuana.

Then there was the family history, with Dawn's absenteeism and falling grades. From Doris' perspective, Dawn was in a horrible situation and should be taken out of it.

[littlewilly]

Yes im serious.
people are allowed to forget things sometimes.
and car crash, that cant seriously be considered bad parenting. With the amount of cars there is always gonna be crashes.
And Spike, well, as i said, very judgemental, Doris didnt know spike and what, because he
dosnt look like a nice litte boy she assumes what? that hes a bad man and a bad influence.
And Willow? big deal.
And magic weed, i aint even going to get into that.
Put it this way, if god was looking down, he wouldnt be impressed, thou shall not judge, thou shall not act like a narrow minded idiot.

[Blondie Bear]

Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, there are laws, and if Child Protective Services feels that a child is being kept in a household that is breaking those laws--especially drug laws--they have the authority to remove the child from that situation. I don't LIKE Doris, but from HER POINT OF VIEW (remember that her character doesn't know what we know or even what Buffy knows and can only go on her own personal knowledge), Dawn was in a potentially dangerous situation and needed to be removed from it.

[littlewilly]

Well, if thats the case, its no wonder we live in such a messed up world.

[Lyri]

Doris was completely justified in what she did/wanted to do. She saw a teenage girl who she considered to be in need of help. 'Magic Weed', Buffy's 'boyfriend' and his 'security blanket', Dawn late for school yet again, the gay roommate upstairs, despite the fact that Buffy and Dawn live alone, and Buffy's inability to remember her appintment with Doris in the first place.

In fact, it's a miracle Dawn was allowed to stay with Buffy after Joyce died. Buffy was, what? Twenty at this point? She wasn't really capable of looking after Dawn, and she told that to Angel. When a divorced mother dies, custody of the children is usually past to the father. If it wasn't for the fact that they couldn't find Hank, Dawn would probably been taken into care. I think Giles might have had something to do with the fact that she wasn't.

As fans, we knew that Doris was in the wrong, and that Dawn was in fact safe, and in no danger from anyone, or the magic weed. But we have to remember that Doris wasn't part of their world, she didn't know that it was magic weed, or anything about what was going on in that house. Taken in context, Doris did the right thing. Looking at it from the fans point of view, Doris was completely wrong.

[littlewilly]

boyfriends, security blankets, gay roommate, late for school.
Are these really reasons to be taking away a kid, sorry, 16 year old from here home? NO.
I maybe would see the point if Dawn was 10. But 16. She is old enough to choose where she stays.
What was Doris supposed to see when she turned up? a nice little family hugging teddy bears and playing scrabble?

[Dlou444]

I gotta go with Blondie Bear on this one. Of course, that's a usually usual thing because she's smart.

Social workers are here to try and spot what could be a problem to make sure children aren't being raised by the wrong people. Surely, you'd have to agree that plenty of people DON'T deserve to raise children or that there are homes a child shouldn't be in.

If we look at the scenerio from an outside view, there are issues.

Dawn's absenteeism is a red flag for a lot of things. Think about it. A child being raised by a "capable" person can USUALLY insure they actually show up to school. When they find out said kid is NOT going to school, they would take steps to remedy that.

Buffy is all scatterbrained when she shows up. Sure, that happens to the best of us. On the other hand, it can also be a red flag for other things. Substance abuse for one. Probably ALONE the scatterbraininess wouldn't have been so bad.

Then you have Spike. Who's obviously acting EXTREMELY weird and, although I love him, NOT the man I'd want influencing MY teenage daughter...just on site. The fact that he was acting like a mad man switching from one personality to another and carrying a "blankey"...not too coool.

Buffy should NOT have lied about Willow. She should have just said one of her friends lived there to help her out. By lying, she looked like she was hiding something.

In the end, you have THREE grown adults in a house all lying and acting totally bizarre. The normal thought? They're hiding something. And they WERE hiding something. Since Doris doesn't know about Vampires, witches and Slayers, she had to assume they were hiding something normal. Like, perhaps, "magic weed".

Under NORMAL non-mystical situations, this would all be a HUGE red flag to anyone. This would NOT be a scenerio where I would walk away assuming I misread everything if I were the CPS woman.

To be totally honest, if I were her and DID know and believe about mystical things going on, but not where Dawn came from, I'm not sure I would think it's a good place for Dawn. We have a Slayer who's not always able to be around, a witch going crazy and a vampire who's in the process of going less crazy and danger surrounding all three of them. Dawn WAS getting lost in the shuffle. She's not the picture of stability even though she got to stay. Strickly from a parenting stand point, it's not the best environment for her...and her father probably SHOULD have been tracked down and forced to take Dawn. (He SHOULD have been sending Child Support if nothing else.)

[littlewilly]

Yeah, hank is a tool. Its actully pretty shocking what he done, was it he ran of to Spain with some woman? scumbag.
I'll agree on the lies they told, they were put on the spot but they could have just said they were friends and there to try and help.
They could have made it easier on themselves.
Im just trying to put myself in Doris's and Dawns shoes.
although i dont think Doris was being evil and totally unjustified, i do think she didnt try to understand or really find out about the whole situation.
and me in Dawn shoes, id be like, im 16, i do know right from wrong, i WANT to stay here and someone turning up and deciding my future would infuriate me.

[Lyri]

But even at 16, a child is not always given what they want. They're not an adult, and not always able to tell what's best for them. CPS have to decide what's best for the child, not what the child wants. And obviously, and rightly, Doris decided that there were problems with Dawn living with Buffy.

Did Doris actually say she was going to have Dawn permenantly removed? From what I can remember, she says something about not being happy, and looking into the matter further, but until they get everything sorted, she was going to put Dawn in temporary foster care. Temporary, meaning, if she had gone through with it, Buffy may have gotten Dawn back if things at Revello Drive got sorted out.

[The Kinslayer]

I certainly see Doris point of view (with the work I have I´d be scared if I didn´t) but the thing you can argue about it all happens way to quickly. She can´t make a decision based on a 5 minute chat. But hey it´s television. Everything has to happen fast. So we better ignore that. And as peolpe has said, there was a lot of red flags (as you seem to call it). Doris was doing her job, simple as that. But I don´t like the character. To make it harsh, it´s like the way it was with Conner. I can understand why they do as they do, but I don´t have to like it. The difference is that Doris never were supposed to be likeable.

and me in Dawn shoes, id be like, im 16, i do know right from wrong, i WANT to stay here and someone turning up and deciding my future would infuriate me.
Sounds like a 16 year old to me. But let´s face it, most people (I know there are lots of exaptions) looking back at themsleves as grown-ups to then they were 16 admits that they weren´t half as grown up that they then thought they were.

[littlewilly]

From what i remember, Doris went back to her office, Buffy(invisible) went and messed with her, Doris got sent home
and i dont remember hearing of her again!

[The Kinslayer]

From what i remember, Doris went back to her office, Buffy(invisible) went and messed with her, Doris got sent home
and i dont remember hearing of her again!

So? She acted crazy and was sent home. The management did the right decision. I don´t get the point.

[littlewilly]

^^i was talking about Lyri's post, the one before yours. she was trying to remember what happened with Doris, im just saying
they never really answered it. i dont think.

[The Kinslayer]

Still grown up enough to read the situation.
Some are some aren´t. Doris couldn´t know which. But to read the situation doesn´t mean that you see the big picture. Something most people have trouble with their whole lives. But let´s put things in a "real" situation. And of course I can only tell you how it´s like here. How it happens in other countries I don´t have a clue. As I said, they wouldn´t make a decision that fast. Were would be a investigation (inquiry?) and in that Dawn would have the chance to speak her mind. No question about it. It wouldn´t necessarily mean it will go the way she´d want, but it would be taking in consideration. Especially regarding her age. But we are talking about a show, they can´t include everything.

[Lyri]

I was talking about when Doris was leaving the house, what she was telling Buffy. I know there was some mention of temporary foster care, and that's what Doris was writing up when the Invisi-Buffy attacked and she was sent home to 'get some rest' or whatever. I like to think she was sent to a nice hospital.

As for what would have happened in a real situation, here in the UK, Dawn would have probably been sent to emergency foster care pretty much that night, and then an investigations into her life would have been conducted. Her school would have been investigated, her teachers and principle interview, the neighbors would have been asked how things seemed at the house, anything strange happening lately, they woul dhave looked for her dad, and then a court hearing would have been set up, where both Dawn and Buffy would be able to give their version of events, and Dawn would be able to express what she wanted and where she wanted to live, then a judge would have made a decision, and she wouldn't nessecarily get what she wasnted.

[Dlou444]

Well, Dawn may have WANTED to stay, but she is 16. When I was 16, I'd have loved being able to live in my friend's home that seemed to have very few, if any, rules and they could do whatever they pleased. Or so it seemed to me at the time. No rules about no food in the rooms or leaving the house at 9 am and jumping in the car with your buddies because you decided to go see a movie.
That doesn't mean it was a GOOD idea or what was best for me. Especially considering how those friends of mine turned out.

The chances of Buffy ever giving this woman the "truth" were slim to none. And, obviously, if it was effecting Dawn's attendance at school.
The facts (although would more than likely have been over more than this one visit, but we're talking about an hour long show) were likely to remain the same. Buffy HAD to lie, there's was no explanation that would have suited this woman and in all actually, she DID show up on a "good" day. At least the windows and doors were intact that day!

If I had been Doris, I think I would have made the same call.

[littlewilly]

Em... whats the legal age in America for people to move out? Over here it 16, so im just going by that.
When i was 16 i would have totally understood this situation, and well, if i went to a foster home at that age id simply walk out.
And also you could tell what doris was all about before she even opened her mouth.

[hidden]

thats a good point whats to stop dawn from leaving her new home?

but thats not really the point because doris was just doing her job

[The Kinslayer]

Em... whats the legal age in America for people to move out? Over here it 16, so im just going by that.

I´m not really sure what that mean. But here you´re considered an adult then you turn 18. So until then you´re your parents responsibility. That doesn´t mean you can´t move out of the house before. But I don´t think you can get your own place without your parents permission/signing for the contract. But I´m not totally sure. I´ll have to ask my sister. She moved out just before she turned 16.

Now let someone tell how it´s in America. Does it varies between states?

When i was 16 i would have totally understood this situation, and well, if i went to a foster home at that age id simply walk out.
Of course you can walk out, and if you have the legal right to get your own place (if that´s that you mean by legal age) they can´t do anything to stop you.

But if you aren´t allowed to get your own place it would make things worse (It would take me to long trying to expain it all it in english, sorry). You could however get by on your own, but you´ll have to rely on someone else. Living with friends an so on, not getting any support from social services and stuff like that.

But maybe there just differences between our countries.


And also you could tell what doris was all about before she even opened her mouth.
I think that was kind of the point.

[littlewilly]

Over here you can move out your parents house at 16 and leave school at 15, but you cant drive till 17, or drink alcohol until 18.
But i imagine in America as they have to stay in school til 18 then they probably have to be 18 to move out,

[Old Master 3.0]

Here in the United States, the legal age of consent and majority is a state, territorial jurisdiction....but it is generally the age of 18.

At 18 here, you have the complete legal right to move out, enter into contracts, vote, drive, etc. On the flip side you can be tried as an adult, be sued, etc.

Once a child turns 18 here in the States, a parent no longer has any legal control over the child. Of course, the drinking age here (21 in most states) is different than the age of majority.

But of course, if you're still living in your parents house at that age, you're still bound by any set house rules. :: tu ::