No invitation.

[wiccianslayer]

In the episode I think it was ephihany Angel saved kate's l;ife but she didn't invite him in.
So how in hell did he get inside?.

[Blondie Bear]

They discussed this at the end of the episode. Kate seemed to think it was a miracle, that she was meant to keep living.

[Dancing man]

Cough plot hole cough

[Blondie Bear]

^ I don't think so. A plot hole is accidental. The writers did this on purpose. It was so purposeful that they called attention to it. I think it was meant to show the PTB at work and to give Kate some hope that her life was worth living.

[Dancing man]

^ I don't think so. A plot hole is accidental. The writers did this on purpose. It was so purposeful that they called attention to it. I think it was meant to show the PTB at work and to give Kate some hope that her life was worth living.

Why would the ptb care about one human? I think they didnt notice and then had to act like it was on purpose at the end to cover it up.

[littlewilly]

I think blondie bears right. It was to show them theres something bigger at work here, that miracles can happen.
When Angel first busts in the door i thought Kate had killed herself.
Def think it was on purpose though.

[Blondie Bear]

Why would the ptb care about one human? I think they didnt notice and then had to act like it was on purpose at the end to cover it up.

If it had been a mistake and they caught it in time to explain it in the script, they had time to rewrite the script entirely and fix it. As we've seen, the PTB care about a lot, and it's a whole mysterious "not for us to know" thing.

[Entiel]

Plus maybe Kate was technically dead at that moment and Angel brought her back with the water like it happens when you perform CPR...so since she was not breathing etc the invitation wasn't needed...

[littlewilly]

Thats a good explanation entiel, that actually sounds like the smartest one ive heard.
it does happen

[Kana]

I think both are possibilities. If the PTBs did let Angel in it was most likely to help in keep on the path of hope. They could have either allowed him to enter or intervened to bring Kate back to life.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I agree with Schill...Leethehost I mean.

LOL, I don't know why I got them too mixed up as they are so obviously different people.

Anyway, was just a fleeting visit, must now be leaving again.

[celestialarrow]

I believe the powers let Angel in to show him even though he went to the brink of despair. There is always hope so in saving kate he was finally you know shown that he wasn't fighting a losing battle. That no matter how much the odds seemed stacked again you just keep fighting there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. Also this was one of the first time TPTB acted directly who knows maybe kate was meant to do or be something great and instrumental in the battle against evil.

[Lindsey McDonald]

I think if it had been Kate being resuscitated by the water they would have told us that. The writers seemed to be going down the PTB route, but I don't think it was for Kate. They obviously had a vested interes in Angel, so I think it was more to keep him going. Last time he was about to give up they intervened (Amends), so it was just the same thing. They obviously had an idea that the series was going to go in that kind of higher power direction, so I thought it was some nice early foreshadowing. If Kate had died then, I think Angel would have been seriously hard hit.

[Exitmat]

If anyone thinks it's a plothole they're obviously not following very closely. It was 100% intentional, and fit right into the theme of the whole episode.

An actual logical reason isn't meant to be given--its supposed to be left unexplained. It's what makes Kate's theory that it was a miracle hold value. Because what else could it be?

It's actually a very, very clever story. In a world where you have every fantasy creature under the sun, have had characters return from both Heaven and Hell, and make explicit that there are forces like "the powers that be," getting the audience to question the idea of a miracle and its possibilities on both the belief and doubt sides is something pretty extraordinary to accomplish.

Plothole my @$$.

[Superstar]

Actually, Angel was invited by Kate.
Don't believe me?
Go back to when they first met (Lonely Hearts) and the precise wording used:
Kate: "Well, the answer is no, I don’t need rescuing. I gave up on the knight in shining armor concept a while ago.... I guess I just – I just have a hard time, you know - trusting people."

Rescuing and trust - italicized for importance regarding Kate.
Interesting no?
Wait! It gets better.

Kate: "I was just going to ask you if you would like to go some place more quiet."
An invitation... which, in context, is to go home with her.

Hold on, there's more.

Remember this from (Room with a View):
Cordelia: "Oh, that’s right you can’t come in." (Angel steps in) "Wait! What about the rule?"
Angel: "You said when you got a place I was completely invited over."
Cordelia: "What? I didn’t even have a place then. These rules are getting all screwed up."

The "rules" are actually based on an existing invitation, and that applies to any residence the person may have even if they don't have it yet.
The invitation represents a bond of trust between them.

From (Somnambulist)
Kate: "Yes, I trust you."

Angel: “Hi. Can I come in?”
Kate: “Oh, that’s right. You have to be invited in, don’t you?”

Note that out of courtesy, Angel asks - he has performed this courtesy before with others.
Kate never gives a direct answer. Angel makes no attempt to actually enter the apartment.

From (Reprise):
Kate: "You made me trust you. You made me believe."

The bond of trust is still present and stressed in several episodes even when she should have no reason to trust him.
Also, the initial invitation was not rescinded through the required ritual spell.
If it were a trust issue only, it would be much simpler.
Having trust with the invitation still in place is nothing less than a free pass.
The reason for his entry into the apartment? The very thing she has no faith in; rescue from a knight in shining armor - but she does still have trust in Angel and why she called him.
Note that it is these words which are repeated verbatim by Darla that spring Angel into action:
"You made me trust you. You made me believe."
Believe in what exactly? Why a knight in shining armor of course.

Note the episode title: "Reprise" - and Kate's last conversation with Angel before his entry into her apartment - defined as a repetition of principal points.
This serves both Kate and Angel as does the next episode title "Epiphany".
One of the less recognized definitions of epiphany is an appearance or manifestation especially of a divine being - an angel.
Angel makes this epiphany: "I thought if I could save you, I'd somehow save myself, but... but I was wrong."

Wesley: "Darla?"
Angel: "Yeah. Actually kind of a funny story. The whole reason I had this epiphany...

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."

[Kana]

Actually, Angel was invited by Kate.
Don't believe me?
Go back to when they first met (Lonely Hearts) and the precise wording used:
Kate: "Well, the answer is no, I don’t need rescuing. I gave up on the knight in shining armor concept a while ago.... I guess I just – I just have a hard time, you know - trusting people."

I'm not entirely happy about implied invitations. Kate has never actually invited him in explicitly.

Rescuing and trust - italicized for importance regarding Kate.
Interesting no?
Wait! It gets better.

Kate: "I was just going to ask you if you would like to go some place more quiet."
An invitation... which, in context, is to go home with her.

Again it's still an implied invitation, if that actually. Some place more quiet, could be a motel, his place, etc.


Hold on, there's more.

Remember this from (Room with a View):
Cordelia: "Oh, that’s right you can’t come in." (Angel steps in) "Wait! What about the rule?"
Angel: "You said when you got a place I was completely invited over."
Cordelia: "What? I didn’t even have a place then. These rules are getting all screwed up."

This wasn't an implied invite. Although Cordy didn't own the place it was a straight forward invitation.

The "rules" are actually based on an existing invitation, and that applies to any residence the person may have even if they don't have it yet.
The invitation represents a bond of trust between them.

Actually it's more technical rather than emotionally based. Dawn had no emotional acttachment to Harmony, neither did Sarah Holtz to Angelus or Darla.

From (Somnambulist)
Kate: "Yes, I trust you."

Angel: “Hi. Can I come in?”
Kate: “Oh, that’s right. You have to be invited in, don’t you?”

Note that out of courtesy, Angel asks - he has performed this courtesy before with others.
Kate never gives a direct answer. Angel makes no attempt to actually enter the apartment.

While this is the case, she still never invited him in.

From (Reprise):
Kate: "You made me trust you. You made me believe."

The bond of trust is still present and stressed in several episodes even when she should have no reason to trust him.
Also, the initial invitation was not rescinded through the required ritual spell.
If it were a trust issue only, it would be much simpler.
Having trust with the invitation still in place is nothing less than a free pass.
The reason for his entry into the apartment? The very thing she has no faith in; rescue from a knight in shining armor - but she does still have trust in Angel and why she called him.
Note that it is these words which are repeated verbatim by Darla that spring Angel into action:
"You made me trust you. You made me believe."
Believe in what exactly? Why a knight in shining armor of course.

I still believe the invitation is more technical than just based on trust, much in the same way, the ritual the revoke the invitation must be perform, rather than simply not trusting someone.



Note the episode title: "Reprise" - and Kate's last conversation with Angel before his entry into her apartment - defined as a repetition of principal points.
This serves both Kate and Angel as does the next episode title "Epiphany".
One of the less recognized definitions of epiphany is an appearance or manifestation especially of a divine being - an angel.
Angel makes this epiphany: "I thought if I could save you, I'd somehow save myself, but... but I was wrong."

And this could actually refer to the PTBs who I believe, either brough Kate back to life or allowed Angel to enter.



Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

And Karma for reciting my favourite Angel speech.

[Superstar]

Again it's still an implied invitation, if that actually. Some place more quiet, could be a motel, his place, etc.
Implied is all it takes.
There are multiple examples where the word "invite" is not used.
Simple implications of c'mon, stop by or even a simple offer to watch tv are enough of an implied invite.
Angel and Spike enter Lindsey's refuge without invitation as well, which is a complete transgression of the rule.
This isn't even counting instances of where vampire hands and arms have crossed thresholds without even the implied invite, where in other instances even that much is not possible (see Kate's father as example).

Implied is all it takes. You might not like it, but them's the facts of the series as shown.
You have yet to address the precise language used that I mentioned as well.

[Kana]

Implied is all it takes.
There are multiple examples where the word "invite" is not used.
Simple implications of c'mon, stop by or even a simple offer to watch tv are enough of an implied invite.
Angel and Spike enter Lindsey's refuge without invitation as well, which is a complete transgression of the rule.
This isn't even counting instances of where vampire hands and arms have crossed thresholds without even the implied invite, where in other instances even that much is not possible (see Kate's father as example).

Implied is all it takes. You might not like it, but them's the facts of the series as shown.
You have yet to address the precise language used that I mentioned as well.

In th case of Rebecca Lowell for example, this is explicit enough. She wanted him to stop by for a private screening of her TV show. Cordelia's was totally explicit, she wanted Angel to enter a her apartment when she got it.

In the case of the episode 'Angel' on Btvs, the invitation worked by point of proximity and of course in Dawn's case it was totally explicit but unintended (which throws the whole trust theory out of the water.)

Going somewhere more quiet is too vague and even if we undertake the trust theory, Kate's trust of Angel at that point was debatable. Of course we know that she was attracted to him but is that enough?

And when did Spike and Angel enter Lindsay's digs? Ah in Underneath? Well it's uncertain if Lindsay was technically living there at the time. He may have been in residence in the hell dimension and it's uncertain whether Eve was actually human enough for Angel and Spike to need an invite.

The hands through the threshold may be a blooper or in the case of the Three, they may have managed to use their vamp speed to get in when the barrier went down for Angel.

[Superstar]

You really just can't believe that it was anything but divine eh?
Even when the dialog explains the foreshadowing that this was something directly pertaining to the character and her beliefs.

I guess the writers just wing it week by week and don't block out stories.
I guess they also keep the issue in the dark for over a season without reminding us and just spring it out of nowhere as a novel approach to storytelling.
What crappy writers.
This just in... writers' story corner miraculously solved by Dues Ex Machina indeed.

Or... they really had a plan for this character.
You decide.

If I ever went through the both series and listed all the foreshadowing they give on so many things it would truly frighten you.

[Kana]

You really just can't believe that it was anything but divine eh?

It's a possibility of course but issues of trust and emotion are somewhat vague in regards to the invitation rule. I agree that they can be offhand and casual but they have to be specific to the vampire (whether they know it's a vampire or not) crossing the threshold, whether it's to get him on your side of the door when escaping vamps or stopping by to view a private screening.

Even when the dialog explains the foreshadowing that this was something directly pertaining to the character and her beliefs.

But like I said in terms of trust, that isn't necessary (see the Dawn case).

It's suppose the implied could stretch as a cry for help (when she called him), it's a possible theory, but it's also possible that the PTBs either intervened to bring Kate back to life or they allowed Angel to enter.




I guess the writers just wing it week by week and don't block out stories.
I guess they also keep the issue in the dark for over a season without reminding us and just spring it out of nowhere as a novel approach to storytelling.
What crappy writers.
This just in... writers' story corner miraculously solved by Dues Ex Machina indeed.

Or... they really had a plan for this character.
You decide.

Or it was about helping getting Angel on track. The character progression of Kate wouldn't be marred by that anyway. Kate notes that she never invited him in. It could be that her research didn't cover implied invitations but any case she definitley believes in a higher power being responsible.

In terms of Angel, I think whether the TPBs intervened was irrelevent: the intention of reaching out to those who need help has it's own worth.

Kate's progression fascinates me. It's not just about trusting people but about faith in general. Kate had always been cynical and hardened so someone like that believing in something higher means something, whether they intervened or not. To me it's not so much about foreshadowing but more about thematical progression of the character which shouldn't be marred either way by the metaphysics of the invitation rule.

If I ever went through the both series and listed all the foreshadowing they give on so many things it would truly frighten you.

You can PM me them if you like :), so as not to side track this thread too much but yes there is much foreshadowing in the Verse, some of which I've noticed, some of which I may not have noticed, but I don't believe this is necessarily one of those instances.

[Superstar]

You can PM me them if you like, so as not to side track this thread too much but yes there is much foreshadowing in the Verse, some of which I've noticed, some of which I may not have noticed, but I don't believe this is necessarily one of those instances.
We'll just agree to disagree.

If I was to do such a thing (foreshadow list) it would be posted here for everyone to enjoy.
I may even take up that daunting task sometime. Not sure.
Perhaps on my next marathon viewing.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I am curious though why you think TPTB are on the side of "good".
The only ones who claim that are not in any position to truly know.
Jasmine (an ex-PTB) flat-out said they are ambivalent.

Jasmine: Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart.
Jasmine: No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.

The First took responsibility with a "we brought you back" in BTVS "Amends". Truth or not (The First does love its truth), the "we" is very interesting.
Note that this was done when the Angel spin-off was being developed and an over-arching series foil was being created.

[Kana]

We'll just agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that lol, jk.

If I was to do such a thing (foreshadow list) it would be posted here for everyone to enjoy.
I may even take up that daunting task sometime. Not sure.
Perhaps on my next marathon viewing.

Oh take your time. I agree they are extremely multi-layered shows, full of meaning and open to different interpretations.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I am curious though why you think TPTB are on the side of "good".

Well I tend to agree that they are ambiguous, morally and otherwise. What they may think is good, may be morally offensive to you and me.

The only ones who claim that are not in any position to truly know.
Jasmine (an ex-PTB) flat-out said they are ambivalent.

Well of course Jasmine disagreed with the PTBs I suppose and certainly she attempted to play on Angel's fear that they is no higher purpose, not forgetting that she wouldn't necessarily be unbiased. She did say they didn't care but she also said that in general the PTBs were a force for good.

I actually tend to think of them as sentient beings with certain agendas that may or may not benefit us. Doesn't make them not good and in fact they my help (o have helped) a lot. I actually like Jasmine's speech about no absolutes. This means the PTBs can intervene but the focus is on mankind and their choices, even the choice over whether a decision is moral or not.

Jasmine: Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart.
Jasmine: No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.

Absolutely but this doesn't necessarily disprove they did get involved in Kate's case. They certainly have been involved with varying results. Maybe they are not as powerful as all that and are doing the best they can.

This said, her phone call maybe the implied invitation we are looking for. Holland Manners wife said to Angel "Help us" which allowed him to enter. This is all fine and dandy because it's explicit enough. Kate's cry for help was a little unclear but she let him know what she was planning (more or less) if she wanted him to save her, this could count as an invitation. I would find this a lot more satisfying than simply "going somewhere more quiet" which could be anywhere from a motel, to his place etc. If anything was an implied invite (yes I accept most theories) I'd say that was it.


The First took responsibility with a "we brought you back" in BTVS "Amends". Truth or not (The First does love its truth), the "we" is very interesting.
Note that this was done when the Angel spin-off was being developed and an over-arching series foil was being created.[/QUOTE]

[Superstar]

This said, her phone call maybe the implied invitation we are looking for... Kate's cry for help was a little unclear but she let him know what she was planning (more or less) if she wanted him to save her, this could count as an invitation. I would find this a lot more satisfying than simply "going somewhere more quiet" which could be anywhere from a motel, to his place etc. If anything was an implied invite (yes I accept most theories) I'd say that was it.
An interesting culmination of all of their conversations on trust and belief.

I would agree that calling someone in that obvious condition is a cry for help, otherwise a simple note suffices as there would be no knowledge of the act until afterward and a possible intervention to prevent it.
So, what you are suggesting is that while the first doesn't work for you, the second might.
Very gracious. I had not made that connection of her calling the only person she could rely on as an additional invitation.

In other words, by discussion and exploration 2 possible invitations have been discovered when previously it was assumed that none existed.
One for what was obviously a night of... intimacy and connection and the other for salvation.

I still hold that the precise language of the conversations between Angel and Kate combined with the verbatim repetition of her words by Darla are not throw away lines having nothing to do with Angel's entry. You may be correct in that a motel could be implied, but the phrase conjures up the usual translation of "let's go back to my place".

We may still agree to disagree, but thank you for being open to alternatives.

The PTB answer, while having the spiritual resonance, doesn't really jibe with everything established concerning their relationship.
For some, I'm sure that spiritual resonance holds meaning, and they may take that away with them to hold dear.
However, that is not the only answer that has meaning in relation to the storylines as developed, and in fact is slightly in opposition.
But that is what stories are about are they not? What it means to you as a person.

[Lindsey McDonald]

But what about the snow in Amends? Was that not the PTB intervening? Why is the PTB explaination opposed to the storylines developed if this is the case?

Also, I don't see the PTB as "good" as much as being concerned with the overall balance of things. Jasmine and the First ignored this, which is what made them different. The PTB rarely intervene, but when they do it is to ensure balance: i.e. Angel being around for the Apocalypse, whether for good or evil.

[Kana]

But what about the snow in Amends? Was that not the PTB intervening? Why is the PTB explaination opposed to the storylines developed if this is the case?

The snow? Not sure, could be the PTBs, could be Jasmine. Joss said it represented hope and while it could represent a divinity it isn't limited to it.

Also, I don't see the PTB as "good" as much as being concerned with the overall balance of things. Jasmine and the First ignored this, which is what made them different. The PTB rarely intervene, but when they do it is to ensure balance: i.e. Angel being around for the Apocalypse, whether for good or evil.


That's possible, they seemed to want Angel as their champion but whether that serves a purpose that isn't apparent to us, I don't know. But, yeah, I'm more preoccupied with the individual choices.

[Buffanator]

Implied is all it takes.
There are multiple examples where the word "invite" is not used.



Implied is all it takes. You might not like it, but them's the facts of the series as shown.

Sorry - just can't agree here. How many times did Angel say "I need more than that" when standing at a doorway? I believe Lindsey once said that, as did others. And the way Lilah said (more than once) "Did I tell you how much you are NOT invited in?" (*Untouched*)

I believe that Angel's going into Kate's apt was a miracle... perhaps Kate died for just a moment... that's all it would take, & he could enter.

[Buffanator]

ALSO...
I watched "Darla" last night. Angel goes roaring over to Lindsey's apt, & knocks the door down, & says "I may not be able to come in..." and Lindsey interrupts with "Wipe your feet". Angel retorts "what?" - he couldn't go in JUST YET - Lindsey replies "come in if you're gonna, but wipe your feet." Lindsey had to do more than just *imply* that Angel was invited.

Ok I'll STFU now. :D