Champions...?

[Lyri]

There was a discussion in another thread about who qualifies as a Champion, in both shows, so rather than hijack that thread, I thought it'd be a lot better to start a new thread.

So, who's a Champion? Buffy and Angel obviously qualify. Spike? Cordelia? Willow?

Who's your Champion?

[littlewilly]

The term champion gets thrown about too loosely.
The way i see it, the true champions are Angel, Buffy and Spike.
Groo could have been one if he became a main character.
When i think champion, i think of a warrior, a great fighter, a leader.
Cordy, wes, willow and Giles are all great allies, but i wouldnt call them champions.

[Cangel]

First I think to qualify as a real champion, you need to be a little bit more than just average human, to even be able to perform anything that might get you to become a champion. So with this in mind, it would leave Buffy, Angel, Spike, Faith, Cordelia, Willow, Tara and maybe even Connor (haven't seen the end of s5 though, so can't judge him)

Like I said before, in my opinion Cordy is definitely a champion. Well, obviously not on Buffy in her high school years, but then later on. All those visions she beared, even after having the opportunity of getting rid of them, how she became a fighter, and eventually a higher being, she's definitely a champion! And at the end, when she dies, she has the opportunity to come back to Angel for a day, because the PTB owed her one. I don't think they would've given her that opportunity if she wasn't a champion.

As for Spike, I agree he might've been a champion, but in my opinion what he did at the end of 'Chosen' was what made him one, and not, like others have said, getting his soul. He got his soul for a girl, what about that makes him a champion??

Same goes for Willow, if she's a champion, what qualified her were her actions in 'Chosen' in my opinion. That's also why I think Tara doesn't qualify; she wasn't around anymore for the real action.

Faith is a difficult case. On the one hand she has, like Buffy, killed numerous vamps and demons, but, on the other hand, she had this human-killing/evil phase. I think we have to give her some credit for turning herself in in the end and actually doing some time, although she could've easily left whenever she wanted to. And in the end she helped AI with their Angelus problem and fought next to Buffy in the Hellmouth. So yeah, maybe she also is a champion, as she has at least partly payed for her crimes and also helped save the world.

[littlewilly]

Cordy? in no way is she a Champion. Willows more of a champion than Cordy, and Willow aint even a champion. Cordy wasnt a fighter either, she wasnt around for any real action.

The only thing Cordy done was keep the visions when she didnt have to.
She was basically just a receptionist. Anyone could have done what she done.
and Spike getting his soul back, well, he may be the first vampire in history to do that. The one and only vampire ever to
choose to get it back. and, vamps aint human, they murder, they are evil by nature, and that makes
Spike getting his soul back even more amazing.
Put it this way, if i was a champion, i know who id want on my side if i had to choose.

[white avenger]

The only characters I remember ever being specifically referred to as "champions" were Buffy herself ("She is a champion of the people. Let her cross over." by Willow), Angel ("You're a champion..." by Wes and Cordy), and Spike ("It was meant to be worn by a champion." by Buffy herself). Groo was a hero in Pylea, and probably a champion as well, but I'm not sure if that qualifies him in this case. Anyhow, Groo wasn't there, Angel was going back to LA to form a second front and brood about cookie dough, Buffy didn't want to carry the Scythe AND wear the amulet, so she gave it to "the strongest warrior we have," Spike. She could have given it to Faith, but she apparently believed that Spike was the proper candidate (It would've been interesting to have seen who she would've chosen if Angel had stayed for the fight, but we'll never know now. She would've probably let the boys settle it with that oily wrestling match)

[Bangelxx]

Willow is definitely my champion. She started off this shy little thing who wore "the softer side of sears" and by the end of "Chosen", she's this all-powerful witch, which I think is pretty cool! Plus she's always been a good friend to Buffy.

[Cangel]

Cordy? in no way is she a Champion. Willows more of a champion than Cordy, and Willow aint even a champion. Cordy wasnt a fighter either, she wasnt around for any real action.

The only thing Cordy done was keep the visions when she didnt have to.
She was basically just a receptionist. Anyone could have done what she done.
and Spike getting his soul back, well, he may be the first vampire in history to do that. The one and only vampire ever to
choose to get it back. and, vamps aint human, they murder, they are evil by nature, and that makes
Spike getting his soul back even more amazing.
Put it this way, if i was a champion, i know who id want on my side if i had to choose.

Oh Cordy so was a fighter! Remember how she let Angel teach her how to fight? Well and then after she became part demon anyway, remember what she could to from time to time? Also, being a fighter doesn't have to mean physical fighting necessarily.
And for Spike, he got his soul, big deal. This had nothing to do with feeling the urge to fight for good or whatever, all it was about was a girl. And imo, if you do something grand for the wrong reasons, it doesn't make you good.

[vampireczarina]

Of course Buffy and Angel qualify as champions. I think Spike does too though. As leethehost said he went out and had his soul restored, which is a big deal. He may have had slightly selfish reasons for it, but he was the first vampire to be proactive about restoring it. Moreover he put his @ss on the line many times before that, even without a soul. Remember all he went through to protect Dawn from Glory. He was even captured and tortured, and still wouldn't give her up. He fought right to the end to protect Dawn and help defeat Glory.
Spike can be selfish and self-centered a lot of the time, but many times throughout the series he has sacrificed his own well being for a greater cause. I think that makes him a champion.

[The Chosen]

Cassandra Rayne from the Chaos Bleeds video game was a Champion.

I think Willow deserves the title of Champion. She activated every Potential Slayer in the world and can literally do anything with magick nowadays. So, yeah. Champion.

[LorneyTunes]

I think Xander is my Champ , hes always there giving the good talk, saving the world with his mouth . Hes not even got superpowers and he still manages to save everyone sometimes ! He has the biggest heart , and sure he does mess up like everyone else.

He is def the Daphnie of the scoobies x

But i believe Xander has the means to be a champ like the rest !!!!

[Edmund Blackadder]

1: warrior. fighter.
2: a militant advocate or defender <a champion of civil rights>
3: one that does battle for another's rights or honor <God will raise me up a champion — Sir Walter Scott>

That is the Merriam Mebster definition.

It doesn't state the person has to be anything other than a fighter, a warrior, a defender and one who does battle for anothers rights or honour.

With that in mind, every single character that was willing to risk their lives in any battle on either show qualifies as a Champion. Doesn't matter what got them involved in the fight, what matters is that while they were fighting they were doing it even though they had a choice to not fight.

[Crazy Flakes]

Sure, Cordelia killed her fair share of demons, vamps, etc, but I think she was mainly a fighter because she fought to keep her visions. Even when they were literally killing her, she wanted to keep them to help the people around her. And she allowed herself to be turned into a semi-demon without blinking an eye, even though she didn't know if she'd wind up with horns and fangs. I think that's the main thing that made her a champion.

And I think Willow is a champion as well, but, as SS said, I think she became one because of her actions in Chosen. And, if not, she's certainly a champion by season 8...after all, she's kicked some major arse in those comics! Perhaps I'll be able to judge better once we find out what happened during her "missing year."

[Edmund Blackadder]

OK, how about this.

Rather than say who you THINK is a Champion, wrte down your own definition of the word.

[Crazy Flakes]

As Palabra said in the "Could Buffy Have Worn the Amulet?" thread:

The "champion" designation seems to require someone to not only have some sort of super human ability, but to willingly and continually make the choice to use those gifts for good (with some wiggle room for slip-ups, of course).

I think that pretty much sums up what makes a champion in the Buffyverse.

[Edmund Blackadder]

As Palabra said in the "Could Buffy Have Worn the Amulet?" thread:



I think that pretty much sums up what makes a champion in the Buffyverse.

Well I find that absolute rubbish to be quite frank. I respect that it is your opinion but a Champion should not have anything to do with being more than human.

A Champion is someone who is willing to fight for the rights and beliefs of others.

In fact, someone, for instance Buffy, who has gifts and chooses to use them in my opinion is not as courageous as say Xander who has nothing to give but himself, yet every time he steps up to fight the good fight.

Joss Whedon has done alot of things but he cannot take a word from the English Dictionary and take away its meaning and invent his own. He could, feasibly, add to it, but he can't take anything away - that being said look up the term again, or reference the Merriam Webster one I used a few posts back.

[Lyri]

No one can tell you who your Champion or hero is, that's all on you, which was why I started this thread in the first place. You can't look in a dictionary and suddenly realize that the definition of a hero is, for example, Winifred Burkle and start hero-worshipping her. A hero or a Champion should be someone the individual person looks up to and feels a connection to, not because they measure up to a definition.

Everyone here probably already knows that my heroes from the shows are Xander, Connor, Faith, Spike and Cordelia, in that order, because each of them faced up to something they knew they couldn't run from and came out the other side intact.

Xander was the only pure human in the Scoobies, and yet he still stepped into the school that day and put his life on the line because he knew it was the right thing to do, because he wanted to stand by his best friend and be there for her.

Connor tried to deny who he was, but he knew that his power came from Angel, and in the end, he accepted that. He allowed Angel to not feel guilty about giving Connor a new life, trusted him enough to let him know that he, Connor, knew the secret. And in the end, when Angel told him to stay away, he came back to stand by his father's side in what was essentially the final battle. Although, looking back, maybe if he'd stayed away, he wouldn't have ended up in Hell.

Faith faced up to the fact that she killed people, and went to jail to do her time. She proved how easily she could have broken out at any point, but she stayed behind bars for three years, and only escaped because she was needed, because she was asked. She returned to Sunnydale, somewhere she knew she wasn't wanted, because she knew what was coming, and she knew that the best place for her was on the front line.

Spike travelled half way around the world and fought hell for the chance to get his soul back, but he did it for selfish reasons. To be the man he thought Buffy deserved. But the truth is, I always thought Spike was more of a Champion before he got his soul back. He did a lot of good things with the soul, of course he did, but look at how he was before it was returened. He told Buffy he would protect Dawn with his life and he kept his word, he watched over, looked out for her, protected her. He fought with the Scoobies, kept them safe, all without a soul and without Buffy around to give him credit for it.

Cordelia fought hard for her visions, kept the pain and sickness away from her friends because she knew it would upset them, and they might force her to give them up. She declined that option, and choose to become part demon so that she could keep the visions and stay with Angel and help him with his mission. She became an great fighter under Angel's guidence, despite having only the limited strength of a mortal woman, and she did it all without compaint.

[Dlou444]

Gotta build a little wall here to protect myself.....

Oddly, Buffy and Angel don't SCREAM Champion to me. Why? Because they both kind of half heartedly and begrudgingly took the role of Champion and neither ever really seemed to get much joy or satisfaction from it. In fact, they BOTH seemed to be willing to run away from it if they could find a way to keep their loved ones safe in the process.
I guess I mean, I work about 12 hours a day. It's not always fun. Sometimes it's stressful. But, I ALWAYS love it. Now tell me I have to go be a secretary in an office 30 stories up in LA? I'd be a LOT closer to how Buffy and Angel took their roles in life a WHOLE lot more.

On the other hand, Willow, Xander, Cordy, Gunn, and Fred all jumped in with no super powers (at least to begin with) and were happy enough to do it, if not just to keep the ones they loved safe....but the world.
Giles and Wes, too, although they at least came better prepared. Even Groo, Oz and Tara...although with minimal "powers" jumped in a pile of goo WAY over their heads without thinking. And even Spike was willing to "Save The World" long before he felt the need to fight for it daily. And DID, even before the whole soul thing. Some, in part to keeping someone he loved safe, but when he thought she was dead, he still hung out and helped out the "crew" with nothing at all to gain but that warm, fuzzy "Good For You" feeling in his poor little unsouled, dead body.
Sometimes, I think even Faith was a bit more "Championy" if only for how she stepped up in Season 7. She got a little blind sided by the coupe too and kept going on as if everything was peachy.

I'll give them that it kind of stinks to have decisions thrust upon you. Being told you CAN'T do something makes it all that more attractive. And the rest of the cast really had a bit more of a choice whether to jump into this or not. Not a lot more of a choice, if I went to Sunnydale, I'd have been buddying up to Buffy too. But, they did have a tiny bit more of a choice.

I'm not sure, in the end, I really felt like either Buffy or Angel WERE Champions. I can live with them having the title, but I think the rest of the major cast deserve it more. I should probably add a special spot for Dawn and Connor, who shouldn't even EXIST. They really didn't ask to be thrust into all of this mess and they've stepped up many times when I wouldn't have blamed them for running the other way....and fast.

[littlewilly]

Andrew, Fred, Connor, Reilly, Oz, Cordy, Joyce, Kate and Lorne were all champions.

[Kana]

Gotta build a little wall here to protect myself.....

Oddly, Buffy and Angel don't SCREAM Champion to me. Why? Because they both kind of half heartedly and begrudgingly took the role of Champion and neither ever really seemed to get much joy or satisfaction from it. In fact, they BOTH seemed to be willing to run away from it if they could find a way to keep their loved ones safe in the process.
I guess I mean, I work about 12 hours a day. It's not always fun. Sometimes it's stressful. But, I ALWAYS love it. Now tell me I have to go be a secretary in an office 30 stories up in LA? I'd be a LOT closer to how Buffy and Angel took their roles in life a WHOLE lot more.

On the other hand, Willow, Xander, Cordy, Gunn, and Fred all jumped in with no super powers (at least to begin with) and were happy enough to do it, if not just to keep the ones they loved safe....but the world.
Giles and Wes, too, although they at least came better prepared. Even Groo, Oz and Tara...although with minimal "powers" jumped in a pile of goo WAY over their heads without thinking. And even Spike was willing to "Save The World" long before he felt the need to fight for it daily. And DID, even before the whole soul thing. Some, in part to keeping someone he loved safe, but when he thought she was dead, he still hung out and helped out the "crew" with nothing at all to gain but that warm, fuzzy "Good For You" feeling in his poor little unsouled, dead body.
Sometimes, I think even Faith was a bit more "Championy" if only for how she stepped up in Season 7. She got a little blind sided by the coupe too and kept going on as if everything was peachy.

I'll give them that it kind of stinks to have decisions thrust upon you. Being told you CAN'T do something makes it all that more attractive. And the rest of the cast really had a bit more of a choice whether to jump into this or not. Not a lot more of a choice, if I went to Sunnydale, I'd have been buddying up to Buffy too. But, they did have a tiny bit more of a choice.

I'm not sure, in the end, I really felt like either Buffy or Angel WERE Champions. I can live with them having the title, but I think the rest of the major cast deserve it more. I should probably add a special spot for Dawn and Connor, who shouldn't even EXIST. They really didn't ask to be thrust into all of this mess and they've stepped up many times when I wouldn't have blamed them for running the other way....and fast.

A lot of people say that those without superpowers are not champions because they simply don't have powers. Others say that Buffy and Angel deserve less credit because they have powers. Buffy and Angel never asked to be what they were, be it a vampire or a Slayer but they both chose to be champions. It's not what you have but what you choose to do.

I hate the idea of the champion status being on some sort of scoreboard, i.e.: No Powers= 10 points, superpowers= -9 points.

I see all the good and plenties having their own worth and contribution to the good fight.

I think Buffy and Angel have felt the burden but they have always carried on fighting. So what if they are not jumping for joy every ten minutes? There is a difference between finding some days hard or simply being an earnest character and not loving what you do. I'm sure Angel at least finds meaning in it and I think Buffy does too.

Just look at Angel's Epiphany speech and his Champion philosophy in Deep Down. He sees people suffer and because of who he is he feels compelled to do something about it. That makes him and the others all champions, whether they are leaders or not, whether they have superpowers or not.

In short they all had choice, especially Angel. He didn't have to do jack. He helps humans and he's not even one of them. He chooses to get involved, to get personally connected.

To me they are all champions, from Buffy and Angel to Dawn or even Anne. The circumstances are all different but I don't think we can use this to discredit any of them in anyway. It would also be unfair to use their weaknesses and failures as 'proof' that they are lesser champions. As Wes said, some of us want to escape our lives from time to time, but it's the fact that we carry on that makes us strong.

[eunsoma]

To be honest I think the main cast members of both shows were champions. ALL of them pretty much sacrificed having a 'normal' life to fight evil and make the world a better place. Angel sums it up to his gang pretty well; I think he says, "You made a difference. Each of you—not just to me, but to the world." I think that anyone who commits a completely slefless act (such as giving up their own life and personal life plans) for a cause such as; saving the world deserves Champion status...

I know it's said that Buffy was given those powers and just worked with them, well hey, look at the flip side - she could have gone on living like she never had them, or worse, used them to do evil. She truly gave up her life to make the world a better place, and to me, that says chammpion more than anything else.

[Cangel]

I was just watching 'Waiting in the Wings', and there, when Lorne talks about Cordelia, he says 'She's a champion', so whoever said she wasn't a champion, there you go :p.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Joss Whedon has done alot of things but he cannot take a word from the English Dictionary and take away its meaning and invent his own. He could, feasibly, add to it, but he can't take anything away - that being said look up the term again, or reference the Merriam Webster one I used a few posts back.

Ok, this makes no sense. For one, he can do what he likes in his own little verse. For another, it's not as if he took an entire mythology that falls under the word "Vampire", scrapped bits he didn't like, made up new stuff....oh, wait....

The important thing in this case though, is that he isn't scrapping the old defeniton. He is making it more specific. The word champion is thrown around by a lot of characters, mostly in moments of awe and encouragement. However, there was always a distinction between a champion and a Champion of the PTB. Angel was assigned Champion status by the PTB. So was, I believe, Buffy. Other minor characters can certainly be Players in the big cosmic plan, but the word Champion is intrinsicaly related to the PTB. That's why I think Cordelia became a Champion when she became part demon. I can also believe Willow becoming a Champion during Chosen. I haven't seen Angel Season 5 yet, so I'll reserve judgment on Spike.

As for champions, then yes, apply the dictionary definition, or your own personal standard if you will. But the word Champion is much more specific in the Buffyverse.

[Atren]

Definition of champion is what causes all the arguement here i think. I would have to say for me it is not your powers, but your actions and their results define champion. All of them fought for saving earth, and had notable impact making them champions. Yes, could argue that some were forced to be one (Buffy, not Angel altough) and some others did not really have that good motivation/reason, but still actual actions are what count for me.

[Cangel]

Definition of champion is what causes all the arguement here i think. I would have to say for me it is not your powers, but your actions and their results define champion. All of them fought for saving earth, and had notable impact making them champions. Yes, could argue that some were forced to be one (Buffy, not Angel altough) and some others did not really have that good motivation/reason, but still actual actions are what count for me.

Buffy wasn't forced. She had a choice, not a good one, but a choice, to put it in her words. Faith showed us pretty well that a slayer doesn't automatically get champion status.