Lies My Parents Told Me

[LifeIsJustThis]

Personally, this is one of my favorite episodes. I have a few things I'd like to discuss if anyone's down...

Does anyone see anything incestesque about Spike and his mothers relationship?

Also...

What’s with the weird swishing noise that come along with the vamping out? Anyone else never notice this?

I'm new here, and I could discuss Buffy for hours....

[littlewilly]

I love this episode. Ive noticed it seems to be very unpopular, But i loved how the Spike/Wood story finished off.
I was a little disturbed at William and his Mothers relationship though.
Id say this is top 3 in season 7. A 9/10.

[LorneyTunes]

I love it , cause u get to know more about spike and why hes like that plus the mother thing yeh mingin x

Oh and Robin Wood deserved a wee kickin x

[Bluebird]

I love 'Lies My Parents Told Me'. One of my favourites. The relationship with Spike and his mother is a bit incestuous after she gets turned into a vamp although it was a bit strange when Spike was still human, him being so clingy and all, at his age.

[caitaintdead]

I don't think that Spikes relationship with his mother was strange at all before he got turned into a vampire. Once he turned his mother into a vampire she wasn't his mother anymore, she was a demon (just look at the huge difference between Angel, Angelus and Liam). She did something that she knew would disgust and hurt him - made fun of his love for her.

Oh, and welcome to the boards!

[Tranquillity]

I always enjoy this episode, mainly because i love any one with a flashback to the vampires pre-buffy days. I think William and his mother were very close and he was probably a bit of a mummy's boy but i don't think it was incestuous or anything like that. After He sired her it was obviously different - they were both demons and she was not at all nice once she was free from the rigid expectations and strictures of society. I always think it was a bit weird how the mothers face kind of re-appeared as she turned to dust, like she was happy that William had staked her. I sometimes wonder if she said all that stuff to him specifically to get him to do it. But then I wonder if a demon would have this much awareness or be able to decide that they didn't want to exist... (did that make sense?)

[Buffanator]

Uh.... ? ? ?

Wasn't LMPTM in Season 7?

[NympHadorA]

Uh.... ? ? ?

Wasn't LMPTM in Season 7?


Yep, it is in the season 7...

Aww I love that episode a lot. I see that most of the people dont think this ep is their fav, but I dont agree with them... We see the complcated relationhip between Spike and Wood, and I am so happy about finishing... Then Wood saw the truth and begun to be interested in Faith; and I think he found the right way cos before their relationship I thought that they look good together...:cheering:

[day walker]

good ep not one of my favs but good

i liked how they ended the spike wood thing and did not let it drag on.

but i also do not think the spike and his mom relationship was not any thing more then him being protective of his sick mother. the deamon that took over his mom on the other hand well like spike said to wesley in Ats S5 "i killed my mom after she tryed to shag me"

[ILLYRIAN]

If you put the human morals on vampires then the incestuous relationships become like hoo che moma !

Darla sired Angelus who then became a lover with his 'mother'. Angelus sired Drusilla. Angelus bonked Dru. Darla and Dru had a threesome with the immortal. Dru sired Spike who became her lover. Did Spike and Angelus ever do it to each other?

[Vampmogs]

I really dislike this episode, I think it brings out the worst in a lot of our characters. I'm not a fan of this one at all.

Firstly, I can't stand what Spike says to Wood about his relationship with his mother. It was vindictive and nasty and cruel. First of all, Spike had no insight into Nikki/Wood's relationship, he didn't know either of them at all, so to tell him his mother didn't love him whereas Spike's did, was horrible and Spike didn't have an effin clue. And what he says contradicted everything about Buffy's character in the entire series. Spike tells Wood that his mother didn't love him enough to 'quit' what kind of crack is that?

Buffy's entire struggle from season 1- season 7 was that she couldn't quit. To quote Buffy in 'Real Me' she has a "pesky life or death job which she can't quit or even take a break from." She tried to quit before moving to Sunnydale and it caught up with her, people were dying around her, a good person who knows they can stop this can't quit, in the end it's not an option for them. She also tried to quit in 'Prophecy Girl' but couldn't. A slayer can't quit, it was the biggest load of crock I've heard and goes against one of the major plot points for Buffy's serial character arc. They didn't choose to be the slayer, they were 'chosen' what Spike said completely contradicts this.

And it's shown in Ats s5 during 'Damage' when Dana verbalises what Nikki Wood had said at some point her life. Like she did with the Chinese slayer from the boxer rebellion, she repeated what Nikki had said, to Spike. She said "I have to get home to my Robin." Nikki Wood did love her son, she did think about her son, but she couldn't quit being the slayer, the girl doesn't have the option.

Spike's whole attitude was rather disgusting really. To call it a 'game' and to say he didn't 'give a piss' about killing Nikki was disgusting. It's all strikingly a resemblance to what soulless Spike says to Nikki in the first flashback of the episode when he says he "doesn't want the game to end so soon." The fact he perceives the worth of her life and the situation as being a game with or without a soul is rather worrying.

Spike had a right to defend himself but turned incredibly nasty to tell a man his dead mother didn't love him, that he didn't "give a piss" that he murdered her or to bite him when he was already defeated.

And Buffy came across as looking ignorant throughout the whole thing. Whilst I don't agree with what Giles did at all, she forced his hand a little. Spike was a threat as long as the trigger was still activated, Buffy had made no efforts to solve the problem even when everyone, including Spike, knew that the First told Andrew "it wasn't time for Spike yet." He was a danger to everyone in that house and the ONLY person who did anything about solving the problem was Giles by bringing the stone to Sunnydale. When Giles wants to talk about Spike Buffy snaps "don't" and brushes off. She didn't want to her anything remotely objective about the situation, she was being reckless and this is why Giles ended up going behind her back. So I blame both of them.

And really, what was the point of this episode or the whole Wood/Spike drama? As KingofCretins put it over on Buffyforums, to solve a problem of Spikes that was created for the first time in this episode? If he had issues about his mother throughout the series, great, but it was a probably they created solely for this episode and they had to bring in Wood’s character to solve it. Just silly.

[Buffanator]

I really dislike this episode, I think it brings out the worst in a lot of our characters. I'm not a fan of this one at all.
Worst in characters? You're entitled to your opinion, but this is one of my most fav eppys because of the reasons you didn't like it.

Firstly, I can't stand what Spike says to Wood about his relationship with his mother. It was vindictive and nasty and cruel. First of all, Spike had no insight into Nikki/Wood's relationship, he didn't know either of them at all, so to tell him his mother didn't love him whereas Spike's did, was horrible and Spike didn't have an effin clue.

I thought it was "vindictive & nasty" too, then I realized... soul or no soul... he's STILL *Spike*. And what he said bared truth, cruel or not. He might not have known Robin, but he did know Nikki - to some extent. Like he said "I was a vampire, she was a slayer". And that IS the way the game is played.

And what he says contradicted everything about Buffy's character in the entire series. Spike tells Wood that his mother didn't love him enough to 'quit' what kind of crack is that? Well, it's TRUE. She could have walked away. So could Buffy. In fact, Buffy did. The end of S-2, she ran away. It was she who decided to come back. Just because a person IS a slayer doesn't mean that they HAVE to slay.

Buffy's entire struggle from season 1- season 7 was that she couldn't quit. To quote Buffy in 'Real Me' she has a "pesky life or death job which she can't quit or even take a break from." She tried to quit before moving to Sunnydale and it caught up with her, people were dying around her, a good person who knows they can stop this can't quit, in the end it's not an option for them. She also tried to quit in 'Prophecy Girl' but couldn't. A slayer can't quit, it was the biggest load of crock I've heard and goes against one of the major plot points for Buffy's serial character arc. They didn't choose to be the slayer, they were 'chosen' what Spike said completely contradicts this. Chosen yes. HAVE to fight? No. A lot of people have *a calling* - doesn't mean they have to answer that calling.

And it's shown in Ats s5 during 'Damage' when Dana verbalises what Nikki Wood had said at some point her life. Like she did with the Chinese slayer from the boxer rebellion, she repeated what Nikki had said, to Spike. She said "I have to get home to my Robin." Nikki Wood did love her son, she did think about her son, but she couldn't quit being the slayer, the girl doesn't have the option. my reply here would be redundant

Spike's whole attitude was rather disgusting really. To call it a 'game' and to say he didn't 'give a piss' about killing Nikki was disgusting. It's all strikingly a resemblance to what soulless Spike says to Nikki in the first flashback of the episode when he says he "doesn't want the game to end so soon." The fact he perceives the worth of her life and the situation as being a game with or without a soul is rather worrying. What does one expect from a vampire? Spike IS a vampire.

Spike had a right to defend himself but turned incredibly nasty to tell a man his dead mother didn't love him, that he didn't "give a piss" that he murdered her or to bite him when he was already defeated. Again, Spike IS a vampire. Nasty is 2nd nature. And don't forget, as he told Buffy after the fight, "I gave him a pass; let him live, on the count of I killed his mum." That was pretty merciful, considering Robin tried to kill him, even tho Spike is clearly "not the monster" that killed his mother anymore. And as Buffy lamented: "You're looking for revenge on a man who doesn't exist."

And Buffy came across as looking ignorant throughout the whole thing. Ignorant? "I have a mission. To win this war. The mission is what matters." She knew she needed Spike's strength & fighting skills when the whip comes down... and she DID NOT have time for vendettas. What's ignorant about that?

Whilst I don't agree with what Giles did at all, she forced his hand a little. Spike was a threat as long as the trigger was still activated, Buffy had made no efforts to solve the problem even when everyone, including Spike, knew that the First told Andrew "it wasn't time for Spike yet." He was a danger to everyone in that house and the ONLY person who did anything about solving the problem was Giles by bringing the stone to Sunnydale. When Giles wants to talk about Spike Buffy snaps "don't" and brushes off. She didn't want to her anything remotely objective about the situation, she was being reckless and this is why Giles ended up going behind her back. So I blame both of them.

And really, what was the point of this episode or the whole Wood/Spike drama? As KingofCretins put it over on Buffyforums, to solve a problem of Spikes that was created for the first time in this episode? If he had issues about his mother throughout the series, great, but it was a probably they created solely for this episode and they had to bring in Wood’s character to solve it. Just silly.

I think the point of the episode was to further Spike's character from his early days; also to show Buffy's stepping into the leadership role without consenting Giles ("I think you taught me everything I need to know") and to cement Buffy's trust in Spike. After all, we all know what happens in the end of Chosen, and why Spike was so important after all, don't we. ;)

[Vampmogs]

Worst in characters? You're entitled to your opinion, but this is one of my most fav eppys because of the reasons you didn't like it.

Buffy supporting Spike murdering a human if Wood tries to kill him whilst not allowing Willow to murder Warren for the same reasons? Yeah I'd say that's pretty bad of her character. Giles and Wood going behind Buffy's back, yeah pretty nasty. Spike being an utter jerk, again not his brightest moment. I didn't see any redeeming qualities about any of them at all in this episode.

I thought it was "vindictive & nasty" too, then I realized... soul or no soul... he's STILL *Spike*.

Yeah he's Spike but it was still vindictive and nasty, wether anyone expects for him to be this way it doesn't change the fact.

And what he said bared truth, cruel or not. He might not have known Robin, but he did know Nikki - to some extent. Like he said "I was a vampire, she was a slayer". And that IS the way the game is played.

He didn't know Nikki. He knew nothing about her at all. Never in the series had a slayer's duty been perceived as a game, far from it. Nor for that matter a taking of a human life. If it was just a ‘game’ than the whole theme of redemption in Ats is pretty much absolved.

Well, it's TRUE. She could have walked away. So could Buffy. In fact, Buffy did. The end of S-2, she ran away. It was she who decided to come back. Just because a person IS a slayer doesn't mean that they HAVE to slay.

For anyone with any set of morals or any goodness, there isn't much of an option. Buffy's considered it plenty of times but people's lives depend on her and in the end that isn't an option for her because she's a good person. From what we saw of Nikki I see no difference.

What does one expect from a vampire? Spike IS a vampire.

So he's got a soul? Angel called his soul his 'human heart' a soul is 'humanity.' He isn't just a vampire. Just compare how Spike acted to Wood in comparison to Angel regarding Holtz. Angel defended himself but he still apologised to Holtz because he knew the death of Holtz family was not a game. Just because Spike is a vampire doesn't mean he should be nasty anymore than Angel should be. They both have souls, both have humanity in them and both know the difference between good or bad.

Again, Spike IS a vampire. Nasty is 2nd nature.

I really don't think that's an excuse for a vamp with a soul or without a soul. Just because someone may expect him to be nice doesn't change anything. He was still nasty and can be called out on it, regardless of wether you expect it or not. When Angelus killed Jenny we weren't supposed to sit through 'Passion' shrugging our shoulders saying "what do you expect he's a vampire?" we were supposed to feel sympathy for Giles, sadness for Jenny, anger at Angelus ect. Not be so desensitised throughout the whole situation. Since when has such a cold, impersonal outlook ever been encouraged from the series in the past? It’s always been about the drama, the human emotions.

And don't forget, as he told Buffy after the fight, "I gave him a pass; let him live, on the count of I killed his mum." That was pretty merciful, considering Robin tried to kill him, even tho Spike is clearly "not the monster" that killed his mother anymore. And as Buffy lamented: "You're looking for revenge on a man who doesn't exist."

When Spike in no way shows he's much different from that monster at all, Wood had every right to discount Buffy.

Ignorant? "I have a mission. To win this war. The mission is what matters." She knew she needed Spike's strength & fighting skills when the whip comes down... and she DID NOT have time for vendettas. What's ignorant about that?

Knowing Spike's a danger as long as the First has a trigger but doing nothing at all to fix this problem isn't ignorant? Buffy's feelings clouded her judgement throughout the entire season. Even Spike knows he should leave in 'First Date' because the First admits to Andrew it has plans for Spike but Buffy orders him to stay. Why? Not because he's her best fighter but because, as she says "she's not ready for him to not be there." The mission was NOT what mattered when it came to Spike, she had double standards for him throughout the entire thing. That episode proved that.

I think the point of the episode was to further Spike's character from his early days

If Spike had mummy issues throughout the entire series I'd agree. But it was a problem created out of nowhere and I don't see it as worthwhile because of this. The fact the entire point of Wood’s character was to fix a problem Spike had that was only created in one episode for this episode is pretty lousy IMO.

also to show Buffy's stepping into the leadership role without consenting Giles ("I think you taught me everything I need to know") and to cement Buffy's trust in Spike. After all, we all know what happens in the end of Chosen, and why Spike was so important after all, don't we. ;)

Buffy's "I believe in him" would have done jack if it wasn't for Giles though. Buffy made no efforts to fix his trigger, only Giles did and if it weren't for Giles the trigger wouldn't have been removed. Fine, Buffy believes in him but nor she or Spike had any control over his actions when the trigger kicked in, and we saw how much of a threat he was when that happened. Buffy can believe in him all she wants but if we left it up to her devices in that season, the First wouldn't allowed Spike to help like he did in 'Chosen.' It would have activated Spike's trigger again and that would be that.

Buffy was pretty ignorant not to make any significant attempts to fix the problem and remove the trigger. She was also extremely ignorant to brush Giles off when he even wants to talk about the problem as well. If the mission is what mattered, Buffy would have sat down and put her feelings for the guy aside, she would have looked hard and close at the problem, realised what a danger triggered Spike was to the girls she was supposed to be protecting. But she didn’t.

[littlewilly]

Damn, i messed up the quote thing.

Buffy supporting Spike murdering a human if Wood tries to kill him whilst not allowing Willow to murder Warren for the same reasons? Yeah I'd say that's pretty bad of her character. Giles and Wood going behind Buffy's back, yeah pretty nasty. Spike being an utter jerk, again not his brightest moment. I didn't see any redeeming qualities about any of them at all in this episode.

Wood/spike wasnt the same as Willow/Warren.
buffy didnt want spike too kill Wood, she said if Wood tries to get in their way again and try to kill Spike, then she aint gonna save him.



Yeah he's Spike but it was still vindictive and nasty, wether anyone expects for him to be this way it doesn't change the fact.

Who cares, you dont have to be nice all the time.



He didn't know Nikki. He knew nothing about her at all. Never in the series had a slayer's duty been perceived as a game, far from it. Nor for that matter a taking of a human life. If it was just a ‘game’ than the whole theme of redemption in Ats is pretty much absolved.

Um, it was the game to a vampire.



For anyone with any set of morals or any goodness, there isn't much of an option. Buffy's considered it plenty of times but people's lives depend on her and in the end that isn't an option for her because she's a good person. From what we saw of Nikki I see no difference.

Yeah but most slayers dont have kids. Mabye if Buffy had one
she'd consider doing the right thing.



So he's got a soul? Angel called his soul his 'human heart' a soul is 'humanity.' He isn't just a vampire. Just compare how Spike acted to Wood in comparison to Angel regarding Holtz. Angel defended himself but he still apologised to Holtz because he knew the death of Holtz family was not a game. Just because Spike is a vampire doesn't mean he should be nasty anymore than Angel should be. They both have souls, both have humanity in them and both know the difference between good or bad.

I wish you'd stop comparing Angel and Spikes situation. Angel only apologised because Holtz asked him. and it still didnt change anything.
Spike said sorry, Wood thought Spike said it to him, and got annoyed, got more madder(Before Spike said i wasnt talking to you) Wood wasnt as calm and in control as Holtz was, Spike couldnt just say, 'oh, by the way, im sorry...''.
Spike had to be harsh and beat his ass, thats the situation Wood put them in.


I really don't think that's an excuse for a vamp with a soul or without a soul. Just because someone may expect him to be nice doesn't change anything. He was still nasty and can be called out on it, regardless of wether you expect it or not. When Angelus killed Jenny we weren't supposed to sit through 'Passion' shrugging our shoulders saying "what do you expect he's a vampire?" we were supposed to feel sympathy for Giles, sadness for Jenny, anger at Angelus ect. Not be so desensitised throughout the whole situation. Since when has such a cold, impersonal outlook ever been encouraged from the series in the past? It’s always been about the drama, the human emotions.

Em, i assume When Angelus killed jenny, most people felt sympathy and saddness. But also, what do YOU expect from
Angelus? He IS a vampire, its what they do.
so you can shrug your shoulders at Angelus, AND feel sympathy for the rest, it aint like you have to choose.


When Spike in no way shows he's much different from that monster at all, Wood had every right to discount Buffy.

Oh, so Spike 'in no way shows he's much different from that monster at all'? Except that for the last couple of years he's pretty much been a scooby, helping fight against evil!
Wood had seen plenty of Spike before LMPTM, he knew Spike wasnt the same monster.



Knowing Spike's a danger as long as the First has a trigger but doing nothing at all to fix this problem isn't ignorant? Buffy's feelings clouded her judgement throughout the entire season. Even Spike knows he should leave in 'First Date' because the First admits to Andrew it has plans for Spike but Buffy orders him to stay. Why? Not because he's her best fighter but because, as she says "she's not ready for him to not be there." The mission was NOT what mattered when it came to Spike, she had double standards for him throughout the entire thing. That episode proved that.



If Spike had mummy issues throughout the entire series I'd agree. But it was a problem created out of nowhere and I don't see it as worthwhile because of this. The fact the entire point of Wood’s character was to fix a problem Spike had that was only created in one episode for this episode is pretty lousy IMO.

Well, Spikes always had women issues, so maybe the mother issues could be connected.




Buffy's "I believe in him" would have done jack if it wasn't for Giles though. Buffy made no efforts to fix his trigger, only Giles did and if it weren't for Giles the trigger wouldn't have been removed. Fine, Buffy believes in him but nor she or Spike had any control over his actions when the trigger kicked in, and we saw how much of a threat he was when that happened. Buffy can believe in him all she wants but if we left it up to her devices in that season, the First wouldn't allowed Spike to help like he did in 'Chosen.' It would have activated Spike's trigger again and that would be that.

Buffy didnt know how to fix the trigger. Giles is much better at that stuff, its why he's there, he does that stuff and the fighters fight. Pretty lame point there.

Buffy was pretty ignorant not to make any significant attempts to fix the problem and remove the trigger. She was also extremely ignorant to brush Giles off when he even wants to talk about the problem as well. If the mission is what mattered, Buffy would have sat down and put her feelings for the guy aside, she would have looked hard and close at the problem, realised what a danger triggered Spike was to the girls she was supposed to be protecting. But she didn’t.

Yeah well, Buffy ended up being right again though. Spike never harmed a fly. well, maybe Wood, but thats alright

[InsaneMystic]

While I can see where you're coming from in the rest of your opinions (even though I like the ep very much, I couldn't disagree with you), I have one comment to make:

If Spike had mummy issues throughout the entire series I'd agree. But it was a problem created out of nowhere and I don't see it as worthwhile because of this. The fact the entire point of Wood’s character was to fix a problem Spike had that was only created in one episode for this episode is pretty lousy IMO.
I think Spike really digging into the incestuousness that is the Fanged Four (has any one of them not kumshucked all of the others? and that's with Dru explicitly rambling about "Daddy" and "Grandma" all of the time!) to me is enough of a hint at mommy issues.

In fact, all that badass posing might be to a good part compensation of mummy boy's tragedy... esp. given that even unsouled pre-Spuffy Spike was deep enough into the gray (admittedly, dark gray, but gray nonetheless) area to have The Judge immediately wanting to burn him away because of being "too human". In the evil soulless monster business, Spike never could hold a candle to Angelus, and that's not for lack of trying given that he always competed with him as the eternal rival in a twisted Oedipal triangle.

[LifeIsJustThis]

Wow. You guys are great...

[sosa lola]

Actually, I think vampmogs makes a lot of sense.

What Spike said to Wood was said more of spite and not logic. Nikki surely loved Wood but needed to do her duties as well. She can't really walk away from her destiny, unless she doesn't have a soul, which brings me back to "Spike is a vampire" argument. So what? Doesn't he have a soul now? Shouldn't he be more compassionate with the person he killed his family while soulless?

I love Spike, but Giles was right. While he's triggered, he's not trusted, it was once he was able to un-trigger himself that they were able to trust him, and let's face it, all thanks to Wood and Giles for that.

At this point, I'd say that Buffy was thinking more with her feelings towards Spike, not her mind.

And Giles and Wood did an awful thing going behind her back.

Basically, all those four were being idiots.

[SC7 Fan]

Did Spike and Angelus ever do it to each other?


I just had a look on Wikipedia and found this.

The two may also have some kind of sexual history; Spike mentions in the episode "Power Play" that "Angel and [he had] never been intimate. Except that one--" Joss Whedon has confirmed in numerous interviews and forum posts the possibility of at least a one-night stand between the pair. In the DVD commentary to the episode "A Hole in the World," Whedon explicitly says: "You know, um, I just wanna say Angel and Spike, they were hanging out, uh, for years and years and years, they were in, you know, all kinds of deviant, they were vampires... Are we thinking they never...? Come on, people! I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin'. You know, they're open-minded guys. They may be evil but, you know, they're not bigoted or closed-minded."

[Buffanator]

In the evil soulless monster business, Spike never could hold a candle to Angelus, and that's not for lack of trying given that he always competed with him as the eternal rival in a twisted Oedipal triangle.

That's because Spike enjoyed "the kill" while Angelus enjoyed "the torture". It's part of what made them such different vamps, & what caused them such a stiff competition. (Plus, Spike won the *cup of MtnDew* but that's neither here nor there... :D )

[LadyLavinia]

I'm a bit surprised why this topic is in the Season Six thread.

Anyway, about "Lies My Parents Told Me" . . . it is one of my all time favorite episodes, hands down. Very complex and emotional, all around.

[Vampmogs]

In fact, all that badass posing might be to a good part compensation of mummy boy's tragedy... esp. given that even unsouled pre-Spuffy Spike was deep enough into the gray (admittedly, dark gray, but gray nonetheless) area to have The Judge immediately wanting to burn him away because of being "too human". In the evil soulless monster business, Spike never could hold a candle to Angelus, and that's not for lack of trying given that he always competed with him as the eternal rival in a twisted Oedipal triangle.

I've always felt the writers on Btvs played up soulless Spike's "humanity" way too much. I mean he wasn't any different to the vamps James or Elizabeth in Ats. Nor for that matter Vamp Gunn in Ats: After the Fall or even Harmony in Ats s5. The Judge considers burning Spike, but he also considers burning Dru and burns the vampire Dalton because he loves to read. If anyone's the anomaly in the verse it's Angelus, the only one without any humanity in him.

Harmony and Gunn have bothered showed compassion to people like Spike did at times whilst chipped, Dru, Elizabeth and James also showed the capabilities to love as well.

I've just never seen Spike as that unique in that regard I gotta say.

What the writers boasted about in Btvs, on Ats they’d been doing it for years.

[InsaneMystic]

I've always felt the writers on Btvs played up soulless Spike's "humanity" way too much. I mean he wasn't any different to the vamps James or Elizabeth in Ats. Nor for that matter Vamp Gunn in Ats: After the Fall or even Harmony in Ats s5. The Judge considers burning Spike, but he also considers burning Dru and burns the vampire Dalton because he loves to read. If anyone's the anomaly in the verse it's Angelus, the only one without any humanity in him.

Harmony and Gunn have bothered showed compassion to people like Spike did at times whilst chipped, Dru, Elizabeth and James also showed the capabilities to love as well.

I've just never seen Spike as that unique in that regard I gotta say.

What the writers boasted about in Btvs, on Ats they’d been doing it for years.
While I agree to your examples, it can possibly be explained by all those vampires you mentioned are at least semi-regulars (or, in the case of J&E, "specialty one-shots"), so they wouldn't be interesting to the audience if they were all carbon copies of each other. They were able to do the "total, irredeemable evil with not a drop of gray" with Angelus, because we had his other personality as Angel as a contrasting backdrop to keep him interesting. They couldn't have done this with the others. See, if you take e.g. Spike and scratch out the romantic part of caring for Dru, you pretty much have male Sundae. Stakeable after one ep, perhaps with us thinking "mh, he might have been interesting enough for two or three eps", but certainly nowhere near fave character potential.

I assume the majoritiy of the "get staked two minutes after first appearance"-vamps would register as "pure" for The Judge. Having qualities that make The Judge wanting to burn them is probably a major requirement for becoming a recurring vampire role. :wink:

[Kana]

I assume the majoritiy of the "get staked two minutes after first appearance"-vamps would register as "pure" for The Judge. Having qualities that make The Judge wanting to burn them is probably a major requirement for becoming a recurring vampire role. :wink:

And you'd be right, at least according to Joss. He said most vamps can survives the Judge's touch.

[Vampmogs]

While I agree to your examples, it can possibly be explained by all those vampires you mentioned are at least semi-regulars (or, in the case of J&E, "specialty one-shots"), so they wouldn't be interesting to the audience if they were all carbon copies of each other. They were able to do the "total, irredeemable evil with not a drop of gray" with Angelus, because we had his other personality as Angel as a contrasting backdrop to keep him interesting. They couldn't have done this with the others. See, if you take e.g. Spike and scratch out the romantic part of caring for Dru, you pretty much have male Sundae. Stakeable after one ep, perhaps with us thinking "mh, he might have been interesting enough for two or three eps", but certainly nowhere near fave character potential.

I assume the majoritiy of the "get staked two minutes after first appearance"-vamps would register as "pure" for The Judge. Having qualities that make The Judge wanting to burn them is probably a major requirement for becoming a recurring vampire role. :wink:

Yeah I agree. It's because he was a main cast member whereas the other vampires were not, I can't argue with that.

Your comments actually just got me thinking about it that is all. :)