Angel's writers vs. Cordelia

[celestialarrow]

Okay I just can't get this out of my head. About the writers saying that there wasn't anything else to do for Cordelia's character though I loved "You're Welcome" I think cordy deserves a little more. I maybe the only one who thinks this but Cordy should have been at angel's side in the end she earned that honor after all she'd endured with the visions and being possessed by Jasmine. I think the writers were just being a little lazy I mean they could have had TPTB wake cordy up just as they had done in You're welcome. Except this time it could have been more permanent here's an idea though we all know cordy's ascension was manipulated by jasmine but that doesn't take away from the time cordy spent up there. In season five she could have came back without the visions and being part-demon you know to give her a clean slate. Just as everyone else had received over time she could made peace with angel the gang and most importantly connor. Mid-way through could have started remebering things from her time as a higher being things such as the black thorn for instant and could have been instrumental in the last battle instead of facing the black thorn in the finale. Perhaps angel and the gang could have taken on wolfram&hart I mean since the season began they have been AI's real probably maybe it's me but ending with facing off finally with them could have made a fitting end. Such as the scooby gang had done against the hellmouth. Also I'm not saying my idea is what should have happened just throwing some ideas out there excited to hear any of yours.

[Dlou444]

I agree, and I think that storyline could have worked nicely. Even if she was a "ghostly visiony" type person. It would have been more fun had she been real, but I think she could have been squeezed in.

Which is saying a lot, because I usually don't give much thought to alternate storylines. GOOD JOB!

[Superstar]

Okay I just can't get this out of my head. About the writers saying that there wasn't anything else to do for Cordelia's character though I loved "You're Welcome"
I was under the impression there were issues with Charisma and she only agreed to return as a one time deal when Sarah could not fill the role written for "Your Welcome".

[groovygarden]

I agree. Am watching Angel at the moment for the first time since they originally aired. Last night I watched the end of Season 3, and it made me all depressed and cross with the writers. For me the whole Connor's return/higher being/Jasmine thing was the beginning of the end for the show.

I admit that I'm a huge Cordy (and Cangel) fan, so perhaps I'm bias, but when I think how they spent 6 years believably developing Cordy's character from spoilt, selfish rich girl, into a selfless, brave "champion", I get cross. What the writers did to Cordy in season 4 was a pretty shoddy way to end one of the Buffyverse's longest serving, and most important characters. Possessed for a season, then falls into a coma?! Everything felt so unresolved - it had child's story "and then she woke up and it was all a dream" feel about it. They should have killed her off properly in season 4 (minus all the awful Jasmine stuff), or brought her back properly in season 5, even if it was just for the last few episodes - she deserved to be there at the end. And, although some people hated it, there was more to explore in Angel and Cordy's relationship - even if, in the end, it didn't work out.

I enjoyed (and was depressed by!) You're Welcome, but if SMG had been available for the 100th episode, we might not even have got that.

Poor Cordy.
Poor Cordy lovers.
Poor Cangels.

There endeth the rant.

[Exitmat]

I may be in the minority on this, but I loved Season 4 and what they did with evil Cordy. As far as her character in Season 5, I agree with Joss. Her character was really done. Like groovygarden said above, they took her character from one extreme to another. Her arc was really over. There wasn't much left to do with the character but give her final heroic sendoff and move on.

I can understand that fans of her character were upset about her departure from the series as it meant they no longer got to enjoy the dynamic she brought to the show, but I also understand why the writers felt it was time to move on and say goodbye to Cordelia. And I think they did it in the best way they could have.

[Bluebird]

In season 5 of Angel both Cordelia and Fred die but there seems to be a lot more grief over the death of Fred. I understand it a bit in that Cordelia was in a coma and it was quite gradual and not as big of a shock as when Fred dies.

I love Fred and Cordelia equally but during A Hole In The World and Shells I just felt like saying 'Hey, remember Cordelia? She was a part of the gang too!'

I love Fred loads and was as devastated as everyone else when she died but with Cordelia it felt a bit unfair to her character that it was that one episode she was in and then she was barely mentioned again, you know?

[xgirlanachronism245x]

I loved Cordelia and I loved You're Welcome. But I really think that the way they killed her off, which is what they did no matter how they dress it up, it just wasn't fair.

I do agree that there was just more grief over Fred's death, and I think that's partly because Cordelia wasn't really given a chance to bounce back from having Jasmine incubate inside of her. Yeah, I know it's crude, but it is what it is right? I mean, Cordelia was there from the beginning and even Angel, who supposedly loved her, grieved more over Fred.

I think that the writers could have given her a better exit, and kept her memory a part of the show... but they didn't... so I guess we'll have to deal with that one as well...

[Dlou444]

By the time Fred died, Cordy had been "gone" for pretty much 2 seasons. And, Fred got replaced, which wasn't fun at first, but I gotta admit, I LOVE Illyria.
At this point, nothing less than splitting them would do for me.

Cordy would have been fun to have to just kind of *WHOOF* back to normal...long hair and all. At least for the last part of the season, even if just Angel could see her. I don't know, it would have been neat.
I mean, we got Lindsey back, he's not nearly as cute as Cordy!

[Vampmogs]

I think it was a lame cop out by the writers to state there was nothing else they could have done with Cordy's character.

If they insisted on bringing Spike into the show they could have easily worked Cordy into the Angel Vs Spike storyline they had going. For a number of episodes, especially 'Soul Purpose' Spike was supposed to be the new Angel, what with the exact replica of the famous Angel double dusting scene from 'City Of..' Spike also states "I'll be out there doing his job."

Why not have Cordy refuse to join Wolfram and Hart with Angel and the others, and have her start passing off her visions to Spike? You could still showed she cared a lot about Angel, that she wished it was Angel who she was working with, but you could set up a situation when Cordy starts working with Spike because she can't condone Angel working at Wolfram and Hart?

It'd give a new edge to the Angel/Spike storyline, a new edge to Angel/Cordelia's relationship and would without a doubt give the character something to do. It'd make Angel doubt his decision to take over Wolfram and Hart even more and would have made a great scene to see them eventually coming back to work together again.

I loved 'You're Welcome' and it was an amazing beautiful end to a character. But it was an end that happened too soon. And I'd rather sacrifice 'You're Welcome' along with the disrespectful rubbish of ignoring her existence and then her death throughout season 5 in favour for more Cordy any day.

There was loads more they could do with that character.

[celestialarrow]

I may be in the minority on this, but I loved Season 4 and what they did with evil Cordy. As far as her character in Season 5, I agree with Joss. Her character was really done. Like groovygarden said above, they took her character from one extreme to another. Her arc was really over. There wasn't much left to do with the character but give her final heroic sendoff and move on.

I can understand that fans of her character were upset about her departure from the series as it meant they no longer got to enjoy the dynamic she brought to the show, but I also understand why the writers felt it was time to move on and say goodbye to Cordelia. And I think they did it in the best way they could have.


You know I've heard this statement a couple of times here on the boards. But people keep acting as if her character was the only one who undertook a natural change thoughout the entire series. Wes, Spike, and Willow are other characters just to name a few who changed dramatically in time every character throughout the buffy-verse changed either for the better or worst depending on how you look at it. I just feel if you take the fans on a rollcoaster ride(Season 4,Angel) ultimately destroying a character's(Cordy) core the least you could do is give them a chance to redeem themselves. I mean isn't that what Angel is suppose to be about atonement and starting over I just think they missed their shot. Sure You're Welcome was great I've said that a lot of times on this forum but you just don't sacriface a core Fang Gang member so easily. She deserved to be there to the end Doyle was already gone so for cordy to be gone for the finale. It's just bittersweet and the thing is I'm not a writer professionally anyways but even I could have came up to an alternative so that cordy could have come back. And if they wanted to kill her off heroically then fine I just think she needed more time.

[Exitmat]

...I'm not a writer professionally anyways but even I could have came up to an alternative so that cordy could have come back.

But that's the point--it's not that the writers were too stupid to come up with a reason to bring her back, or even come up with an idea to keep her character occupied--it was that they didn't feel those stories were worth telling.

I loved Cordy, and I loved Charisma Carpenter's portrayal of the character, and I was very saddened to see the character go--but I totally understand why the writers chose to end her character. There just wasn't anywhere interesting to go with her, dramatically, and removing her from the show actually helped in freshening up Angel (both the Angel character and the show as a whole--just look at all the screen time Cordy's exit freed up for Fred and Spike's stories).

There's a saying in writing--sometimes you have to kill your darlings. This was just one of those cases.

[FluffyBuffy]

I hated the way they treated Cordelia's character in Season 4, I can't even watch that season again without getting mad. She is my favorite character on the show and for them to cruelly make her evil just like that was really ridiculous. That Jasmine story arc annoyed me so much.

[Xin Rong]

I was really happy with season 4 and the your welcome episode. IDon't get me wrong you can never have too much cordy but still I liked what they did with the character even if they could have done so much more

[Dlou444]

I've been pondering this.
While I LOVE Cordy I also love season 5. I think it may be my favorite. It had the most "fun" episodes. It's what made me give Buffy a chance.
IF they had brought Cordy back some things wouldn't have worked.
Like Cordy having visions while they worked at WR&H, there wouldn't have been so much of a "mystery" to while they were there.
Jasmine, in my mind, kind of put the PTB into question and I rather like it that way. I'm not sure why, mystery usually ticks me off, but that doesn't.
If Cordy DIDN'T have the visions, we'd have to deal with her feeling worthless and wondering where her place was in the group and that would have certainly cut into Spike's Storyline and how Angel was dealing with him and into more of the "fun" areas...like that scary guy in WR&H. That was fun.
The whole Cup Of Torment wouldn't have been as fun because they couldn't have developed the storyline right.

What would have been IDEAL (in my mind) is to skip the whole ending, throw in another season and let Cordy show up at "You're Welcome" and go from there and then save the Not Fade Away for the end of season 6......hopefully with Illyria still showing up in Season 5. But, I thought the whole "black thorn" thing was rather rushed....for obvious reasons, but still rushed.

[Seven Of Nine]

As far as her character in Season 5, I agree with Joss. Her character was really done. Like groovygarden said above, they took her character from one extreme to another. Her arc was really over. There wasn't much left to do with the character but give her final heroic sendoff and move on.
I don't think her character was "done" because they made her part demon in season 3 then didn't hardly do anything with that. Let's see she floated once and glowed twice, that was lame, they could have done so much with that and they just dropped it.

[Primal Slayer]

I agree that Cordy got the shaft and they probably couldve found a way to keep the charecter interesting, espically with S5. Could you imagine Cordelias reaction to them joining the law firm?

But this is one of the downsides that I have never liked when it comes to Angel, basically every main charecter who was part of the show has died except for Angel. None of his original cast is left (except for Wes) and all family that they created for themselves pretty much fell through the roof.

And it also sucks that Cordelia is the only original scoobie that died (Buffy/Giles/Willow/Xander/Angel are all still alive and kicking)

If they hadnt killed her off, it wouldve been great if they brought back all these original scoobies together for one last fight together.

[charmingslayer]

I know right but instead they kill her off for stupid resons.

[pernilleborup]

I am going to be very boring, and not post anything else besides: I agree with you! couldn't have said it better myself

[MSchett]

Even if Cordy had gotten to stay for all of S5 Cangel still would have never worked out... I mean come on it's the Buffyverse, Fred and Wesely were happy for a day before one starts coughing up blood!

Cordy needed to go out with a bang rather then slowly dwindle to an end... I honestly didn't mind her finale

[Revolver]

Sorry to go against everyone, but I was ready to see her go by season five. She was my favorite character in seasons one and two, but regardless of whether there were still things to be done with character in season five, I just hadn't enjoyed the direction they'd taken the character and I'm not just talking about when Jasmine was in control of her in season four. By the middle of season three, all they had her do was give Angel pep talks and use her as something of a prop for Angel to pine over. Like someone else said, it's a Joss Whedon show. Cordelia and Angel were doomed from day one. It's even more obvious when Angel is one of the parties involved. He can't have a real romance because of his curse. And Joss would have never ended the show with Angel becoming human and riding off into the sunset with Cordy. For those reasons, I just thought the Angel and Cordelia romance arc was boring. And then things got worse when they made "Cordy" evil in season four. That's why I didn't miss her so much in season five. It finally did away with two years of the "Angel loves Cordelia but things keep getting in the way" storyline.

[Airam]

I think it was a lame cop out by the writers to state there was nothing else they could have done with Cordy's character.

If they insisted on bringing Spike into the show they could have easily worked Cordy into the Angel Vs Spike storyline they had going. For a number of episodes, especially 'Soul Purpose' Spike was supposed to be the new Angel, what with the exact replica of the famous Angel double dusting scene from 'City Of..' Spike also states "I'll be out there doing his job."

Why not have Cordy refuse to join Wolfram and Hart with Angel and the others, and have her start passing off her visions to Spike? You could still showed she cared a lot about Angel, that she wished it was Angel who she was working with, but you could set up a situation when Cordy starts working with Spike because she can't condone Angel working at Wolfram and Hart?

It'd give a new edge to the Angel/Spike storyline, a new edge to Angel/Cordelia's relationship and would without a doubt give the character something to do. It'd make Angel doubt his decision to take over Wolfram and Hart even more and would have made a great scene to see them eventually coming back to work together again.
....
There was loads more they could do with that character.

I agree, there WAS loads they still could've done with her character (your idea, for example, is a pretty good one) and it was a total cop out for the writers to use that excuse and I don't really understand why they made the descision they did. If I had to guess though I would have to say its because they wanted Spike on the show and the knew there just wasn't going to be enough screen time to go around and I think that is just such crap! Maybe there were budget and salary issues too, I think its likely. I mean bringing in Spike isn't like bringing in, say, Eve. James Marsters pay had to have been considerable. Don't get me wrong I do like S5 and I LOVE Spike but I would have much rather had a S5 with Cordelia, and if having her there would mean not having Spike there I would still choose her (We'd just have to find some other way for Spike to get ressurected :P)

But I mean, Cordy was the heart of that show!
You know I've heard this statement a couple of times here on the boards. But people keep acting as if her character was the only one who undertook a natural change thoughout the entire series. Wes, Spike, and Willow are other characters just to name a few who changed dramatically in time every character throughout the buffy-verse changed either for the better or worst depending on how you look at it. I just feel if you take the fans on a rollcoaster ride(Season 4,Angel) ultimately destroying a character's(Cordy) core the least you could do is give them a chance to redeem themselves.
And I agree with that 100%! Saying that the character of Cordelia had gone from one extreme to the other and there just wasn't anything else to do with her character is in fact a cop out. If that were the case the same should have been true for Willow. By that reasoning she should never have been able to come back from Dark Willow and S6 should have been Aly's last. But they managed to find other things to do with her character. She went on and redeemed herself, why couldn't Cordy have done that. It would have been really interesting for me to see how Cordy would have delt with having memories of what Jasmine did in her body, the ramifications with Connor, for her and Angel to finally have gotten a chance! And not to mention, can you imagine how cool it would have been to see scenes between Cordy and Illyria?!
just look at all the screen time Cordy's exit freed up for Fred and Spike's stories.

EXACTLY!!!! I will always, always see this as one of the only mistakes Joss ever made. They traded Cordy out for Spike and it just feels like a smack in the face. The writers got lazy and didn't take the time to to figure out how to make space for everyone and in doing so sacrificed one of the most vital characters of the show for no good reason that i can see at all.

[Keanoite]

I'm no Cangel but Cordy was and still is one of my absolute favourite characters. I hate what was done to her character, I've ranted about it several times here so I won't get into it again but the jist is...what they did was not ok. Both the character and the actress deserved more from the writers.

Personally I would have loved to see Cordy and Xander interact again after the end of Buffy. I just think those two weren't done.

[Five]

Could someone explain to me the Sarah-on-100th-Angel-episode thingy pleaaaase?

Actually, I just watched for the first time "You're Welcome" and the episode after that with the submarine. I thought the end of "You're Welcome" was just so, so, so sad. I could have cried. (I didn't. It's not Fred! ... yet. OMG am I gonna cry.) Anyhoo, I really liked Cordelia, and it kinda blows that she won't be here for the final season of Angel. It's like - Angel, Cordy, Doyle and Wes are the Core. Like The FourCore from Buffy : we wouldn't have stood a S7 missing Xander or Willow. It's very sad, really. Besides, the thing I dislike the most about this death, is how much nobody cares. I used to think Tara's death was the most non-cared-about, but hoo was I wrong. In the next episode, they're like "huh, Cordelia who ?". I'm gonna be hated by all Cangel fans, but I think that's (yet another) reason why you can truly think what Angel felt for Cordy was nothing compared to what he felt (and feels) for Buffy. Buffy dies, he goes all grief-y for 3 months. Cordy dies and what, a night ? Come on, people.

Were there any problems between Charisma Carpenter and the writers/producers ?

[EveryNiteISaveU]

Just a thought..
Do you think that maybe Charisma opted to not return to the series? It says in IMDB.com
that she
"Gave birth to a healthy baby boy, Donovan Charles Hardy, at 9:50 PM on March 24th 2003 at Cedar Sinai hospital in Beverly Hills."

The 5th season started in Oct of '03...So, maybe with a new (by that time 6 month old) baby she just couldnt commit to the grueling tv scheduling to be able to be on the 5th season?

[DrusillaRox]

I like the fact that they ended cordelia so beautifully.

this is making me want to watch a hole in the world

I just KNOW im gonna cry

[SlayerGuy91]

In season 5 of Angel both Cordelia and Fred die but there seems to be a lot more grief over the death of Fred. I understand it a bit in that Cordelia was in a coma and it was quite gradual and not as big of a shock as when Fred dies.

I love Fred and Cordelia equally but during A Hole In The World and Shells I just felt like saying 'Hey, remember Cordelia? She was a part of the gang too!'

I love Fred loads and was as devastated as everyone else when she died but with Cordelia it felt a bit unfair to her character that it was that one episode she was in and then she was barely mentioned again, you know?



Seriously? Angel mentioned that he lost Cordelia to something that used her and violated her body more than once in 'A Hole in the World'. IMO I think that because he lost Cordelia in such a similar way it made him more sure that he HAD to save Fred and gave him an extra boost to find some way to save her. I mean look at how alike the Cordy/Jasmine thing is to Fred/Illyria.

[Spuffy78]

In season 5 of Angel both Cordelia and Fred die but there seems to be a lot more grief over the death of Fred. I understand it a bit in that Cordelia was in a coma and it was quite gradual and not as big of a shock as when Fred dies.

I love Fred and Cordelia equally but during A Hole In The World and Shells I just felt like saying 'Hey, remember Cordelia? She was a part of the gang too!'

I love Fred loads and was as devastated as everyone else when she died but with Cordelia it felt a bit unfair to her character that it was that one episode she was in and then she was barely mentioned again, you know?

I agree but the circustmances with Cordeila's death and Fred's death are a bit different.

I think everyone knew eventually Cordelia was going to die since it was said she wouldn't be able to survive the birth.
She also died in her sleep.

Fred, died a lot more painfully and slowly although both dead's are sad Fred's death is more tragic due to the cirumstances.

[InsaneMystic]

I agree but the circustmances with Cordeila's death and Fred's death are a bit different.

I think everyone knew eventually Cordelia was going to die since it was said she wouldn't be able to survive the birth.
She also died in her sleep.

Fred, died a lot more painfully and slowly although both dead's are sad Fred's death is more tragic due to the cirumstances.
And don't forget the horrible fact that Fred's soul got destroyed which now seems to have been firmly established as fact, in ATF, while Cordy's soul is still prancing about in the afterlife. :bawling:

[atticus]

I hated the treatment of the Cordelia character, and don't watch the show anymore, seems pointless. Just a question though, do you think that Charisma Carpenter knew that Cordelia's return, was simply because they couldn't get Gellar, or did the writer's tell her something different.?

[PurplePoof]

I'm fairly certain Joss saying there just wasn't anything else to do with the Cordelia character was just a ridiculous excuse and the real reason had to do with the conflicts surrounding her pregnancy...there are SEVERAL ways Cordelia could've been utilized in the final season, and it woulda been nice for at least ONE of Angel's original team members to be around for the finale.

[Primal Slayer]

I hated the treatment of the Cordelia character, and don't watch the show anymore, seems pointless. Just a question though, do you think that Charisma Carpenter knew that Cordelia's return, was simply because they couldn't get Gellar, or did the writer's tell her something different.?

They probably told her something different since they changed the episode totally around to suit Cordelias return. Just as they did with Andrew returning instead of Dawn.

And that is one of the things that I did not like about Angel is that all of his teammates DIED. All of them are DEAD in way or another. Plus all the trust issues they had with one another.

[PurplePoof]

I think the fact that neither Doyle, Cordelia OR Wesley were around for that final scene really lessened the impact for me. Part of the reason the end of Chosen was so moving because you see these characters who have been together for all this time, fought together and loved together and were essentially a family, all together at the end just as they were in the beginning, and it gives you appreciation and nostalgia for how far they've come. AtS didn't have that, because well...they had to kill everyone.