It was a... hello

[Urgent Power]

Was it?

In "Chosen", after Buffy kisses Angel and says goodbye, she returns to Spike, who tells her he saw her kissing Angel. She explains to him that the kiss was just a hello. Is that what it really was? Buffy felt the need to explain herself to Spike, to explain that there was/is nothing between her and Angel, like the kiss wasn't serious, it didn't mean anything. And don't forget that right after that, she went to sleep with Spike, like Angel was never there, because now Spike is here.

What do you think?

[white avenger]

Whatever Buffy's feelings for Angel, Spike, or anybody else, that was most certainly NOT just a "Hello" kiss. I agree with Spike on this one. People don't use their tongues (in THAT way) just to say "Hello."

[Keanoite]

That is NOT how you say hello to someone you have no feelings for. Add to the fact that she essentially told Angel when she looked into her future (reiteration of what she said to him in a similar graveyard in "Bad Eggs") she saw him. It wasn't a hello and it wasn't goodbye, it was just Bangel.

[Urgent Power]

Speaking of which, I just have to add, Buffy kisses Angel, then goes back to sleep with Spike. What's really on her mind? Kissing someone, then come back to someone else, telling them the kiss was a hello and spending the night with them. I'm very confused about what is Buffy thinking at this point about both Spike and Angel. Is she leading them on? I mean, maybe she just leads Angel on by telling him she sees him in her future. And maybe she leads Spike on by spending the night with him.



Edit:

Also, about tongues - Buffy said there were no tongues, it was a regular kiss, so the question still remains...

[Keanoite]

We don't know whether Buffy slept with Spike or not. Joss purposefully left it ambiguous, he wanted the viewer to decide for themselves what happened. As far as the kiss goes, since when does a kiss need to be French for it to have real signifigance?

[Crazy Flakes]

Yeah, we don't know if Buffy slept with Spike after the blackout. For all we know, she went to see Spike, then Angel appeared out of nowhere and they slept together (you'd love that, wouldn't you, Kean?) But, yeah. It was just a "you fill in the blanks" moment.

And I agree that the kiss was definitely more than a hello. Even though I am a hardcore Cangel, I do think that Buffy never really stopped loving Angel, even if she did fall in love with Spike. There was a good chance that she was going to die soon after their meeting, and she wasn't sure when she would see Angel again. So I suppose it's only natural that she decided to seize the opportunity and kiss him.

[Tranquillity]

I think the kiss itself was more than 'hello' but i also believe her when she tells Spike that it was no big deal....

Here she is fighting Caleb the evil priest and then who should swoop in to save the day? - Angel, her hero of old - notice that Indiana Jones-type music and the sweeping camera push-in on his face as he arrives - Buffy, for a moment is transported in time, she's back to being a carefree girl (well, as carefree as the slayer can ever be...), she drops her scythe and kisses her fortuitously arrived first (and only?) love. But as the kiss ends she remembers herself - she's not that schoolgirl anymore, she can't just 'drop' her calling for anyone, she's acctually kinda involved with another guy, she's got a war to fight and since when did she ever need a man to come and rescue her anyway! Buffy and Angel pass pleasantries, neither really aware or even asking what is going on in eachother's lives, they talk about spike and cookies then go their seperate ways. He back to LA and W&H and she to declare Spike her champion and Save the world.

Yeah, that kiss, no big deal in the scheme of things (and yes, i will happily admit my bias):)

[caitaintdead]

Tranquility - I liked your explanation. I think it makes sense.

Kisses don't mean a thing in the great scheme of things. Even passionate ones.

[palabravampiress]

^ Ugh to the Indiana Jones style of Angel's timely (and oh-so-unnecessary) rescue.

Sorry. I'm just gonna rant for a minute about how much I hate Angel's last-minute cameo in the final episode of Buffy. My big problem with it has to do with Angel. The woman he claims to love is in a coma. He's just given up his wack job son and, to keep that son safe, he has wiped his friends' memories and become CEO of Hell, Inc. Also somewhere in there, his deranged Power-that-Was granddaughter has just wreaked havoc and been killed by the aforementioned mentally unstable son. The very shady folks who made this dirty deal sent Angel a trinket... so he leaves all of this pretty intense family/business drama behind for a quick trip to play hero to his super hero ex? I really had a hard time believing that Angel would just up and leave Cordy and all of that craziness in order to play a round of tonsil hokey with Buffy who, by the way, should not need a sweeping, adventure-style, rescue-the-girl type sequence in her last, uber-woman-powered episode! As a fan of AtS, I was rather miffed that he just took off from all of that stuff and acted like he didn't even care -- because don't I know that the world must stop and all other plots and relationships must be put on hold for Bangel? Grr.

As if the rescue-Buffy-from-one-annoying-villain scene isn't coming from far enough out in left field, the characters then proceed to lean back and waste time talking about cookies... when, hello! There's an army of uber vamps right under their feet and a First Evil lurking about. General Buffy's cooling her heels after killing Caleb and meeting a Guardian? Broody Angel is swooping in to save the day and smiling when there is so much good brooding material back home (in the forms of a comatose would-be lover and a really troubled kid, not to mention an evil law firm to run)? I just did not understand why either of these two characters were shirking their duties at a time like this. If it hadn't been the last episode, that scene wouldn't have happened. It was just put in to appease Bangel fans. Pure and simple. No one even made any effort to make the scene blend in very well with what was actually happening on either show. The entire Bangel segment stuck out like a sore thumb. It didn't fit the plot or the characters at all -- and no one even comshucked! The least they could have done with Angel in the last episode was to break the darn Buffy curse that has plagued these folks for so long.

End rant.


Okay... so in my opinion, the kiss was not just a "Hello." It was a nostalgic homage to the relationship-that-was and an insult to the intelligence of those of us who were invested in... well, pretty much anything that was going on in the lives of the two characters involved at the point in time into which this scene was just shoved all willy nilly.

Sorry. I just really hate this scene. I understand bringing Angel back for the finale. But really! Couldn't he have done something more useful... like contribute to the final fight? No? You want traditional Angel, instead? That's fine. Maybe he could lurk about and make with the cryptic messages as only Brood Boy can? Snark at Spike? Make an irritating decision for the so-called good of someone else? Go all Angelus on the First and take his revenge against the force that almost drove him to suicide in Amends? Break the freakin' curse? Do something -- anything -- with any sort of forward-moving momentum? No. He just shows up for a stupid session of metaphorical Home Ec class and a not-very-feminist bit of rescue-the-girl-who-shouldn't-need-rescuing. If they had to bring him back, did it have to be like this? There was just too little substance to it. The entire point of the scene was to appease Bangel shippers with a little kissy kissy face. That's it. How freakin' annoying is that?!

So, no. Buffy wasn't using Angel or Spike. Joss was using Buffy to appease Bangel (and, to a lesser extent, Spuffy) shippers instead of writing the characters in a way that made sense given the events that occurred in the episode and in recent prior episodes. Ick. I hate this scene. Ask me why. lol.

[Buffanator]

Okay... so in my opinion, the kiss was not just a "Hello." It was a nostalgic homage to the relationship-that-was

This is the part I agree with.

But I was unhappy that we never even got to see a Spuffy kiss the entire S-7, ESPECIALLY during the final 3 eppys. Oh no! No Spuffy kiss... but we damn well got our Bangel kiss. Phhhhtttttt. :eviltongu Ok... not that I never liked Bangel because I did... but when Angel went off to LA & got his own show, I was happy with that. I am one of the people who are OK with the fact that they BOTH moved on (or tried to). Well, Buffy moved on more than Angel did, but still. :blushy:

So while I was OK with the Bangel not-really-just-a-hello-kiss, I was more disappointed that there was no Spuffy kiss. But I did like the way Buffy caressed Spike's face in that one scene. Of course, now that I think about it, I guess a Spuffy kiss wouldn't have been pliable - because how could they JUST kiss? I mean... it would HAVE to have gone farther than just a kiss. (In my happy-Spuffy dreams, anyway.) Still, I would have liked to see some sort of a Spuffy smoochathon. :sigh:

[white avenger]

So while I was OK with the Bangel not-really-just-a-hello-kiss, I was more disappointed that there was no Spuffy kiss. But I did like the way Buffy caressed Spike's face in that one scene. Of course, now that I think about it, I guess a Spuffy kiss wouldn't have been pliable - because how could they JUST kiss? I mean... it would HAVE to have gone farther than just a kiss. (In my happy-Spuffy dreams, anyway.) Still, I would have liked to see some sort of a Spuffy smoochathon. :sigh:



We didn't see Buffy and Angel burst into flames from just holding hands, either.

[Buffanator]

We didn't see Buffy and Angel burst into flames from just holding hands, either.


that WOULD make me feel better, if Spike hadn't gotten so *dusty* afterward... ::uh::

[palabravampiress]

^^ That is the result of the scene that was left intentionally ambiguous. I didn't like that scene. If we got to know what happened with Bangel (they kissed and talked cookies) even though the entire premise of Angel's swoop-down-and-save-the-girl scene was ridiculous and out-of-place, then I think it would only have been fair for us to get to know what happened with Spuffy. I mean, the words that they spoke -- knowing they might die in battle the next day -- are kind of important. But, no. As usual, Joss had to cater to the Bangel fans so that they didn't have to suffer the indignity of viewing a meaningful moment between Buffy and her (at the time) current love interest.

I like the battle scene in Chosen. I just feel very emotionally manipulated by the last episode. I feel like a lot of things were said or left unsaid just to please certain factions of viewers rather than written to the characters and the situation as it stood. I kind of felt like nothing really mattered because it was all lip service, you know?

[SpikedBuffy]

Even though I'm a hardcore Spuffy fan, I do always admit that Buffy and Angel will always have something going on. Every time we saw a Buffy/Angel crossover, they kissed or hugged, or freakin duked it on Angel's tabletop. (with the exception of Buffy going to LA to get Faith, but that was certainly as emotionally charged as a kiss). I wasn't surprised when they shared a kiss in the last episode. It will always happen.

What I hate though, is that we were forced to see Buffy kiss Angel after being apart for so many years and her developing this great relationship with Spike in season 7, and we didn't get to see any actual passion between Buffy and Spike. That's what I didn't like. I know that it was left up to interpretation, and you all know what I was thinking for my own interpretation, but we didn't even get to see a kiss. That was a bummer!

[white avenger]

Even though I'm a hardcore Spuffy fan, I do always admit that Buffy and Angel will always have something going on. Every time we saw a Buffy/Angel crossover, they kissed or hugged, or freakin duked it on Angel's tabletop. (with the exception of Buffy going to LA to get Faith, but that was certainly as emotionally charged as a kiss). I wasn't surprised when they shared a kiss in the last episode. It will always happen.

What I hate though, is that we were forced to see Buffy kiss Angel after being apart for so many years and her developing this great relationship with Spike in season 7, and we didn't get to see any actual passion between Buffy and Spike. That's what I didn't like. I know that it was left up to interpretation, and you all know what I was thinking for my own interpretation, but we didn't even get to see a kiss. That was a bummer!


We saw more passion between Buffy and Spike in Season 6 than we saw between Buffy and all of her other lovers combined, and they were together for only a few weeks. We saw something actually better between them in Season 7. We saw trust, loyalty, and real affection. In its way, that's better and more promising for Buffy and Spike as a couple than all of the hot sweaty sex you could stuff into the entire season.

[Urgent Power]

I gotta say, this is the first time I see Spuffies and Bangels agree with each other that way. Weird... lol

[Buffanator]

When it comes right down to it, Bangel VS Spuffy, I gotta go with Spuffy. Not merely because I'm a Spikeafanatic, but because Bangel can never *really* bump uglies at all due to that nasty curse, while Spuffy can go at it all night every night, til he *pops like a bottle of warm champagne*. Aaaaah.... vampiric/slayer love. It's such a rush! ;) :D

[Buffanator]

Superstar agrees: I disagree Keanoite. The curse is about the loss of soul, not just turning evil vampy. That is just the result.

Ummmmm. NO. It's not even a debateable point. It is repeated in many eppys of BtVS and Ats that Angel was CURSED with a soul by the gypsies. Let me repeat that: He was cursed with a soul. Spike specifically FOUGHT for his soul. And the demon said "Very well, we will return your soul." There was no *cursing* to it.

[Buffanator]

Ummmmm. NO. It's not even a debateable point. It is repeated in many eppys of BtVS and Ats that Angel was CURSED with a soul by the gypsies. Let me repeat that: He was cursed with a soul. Spike specifically FOUGHT for his soul. And the demon said "Very well, we will return your soul." There was no *cursing* to it.



Oooorrrrr....did I totally just misunderstand what you were saying??? (If so, my apologies!!!)

[SpikedBuffy]

We saw more passion between Buffy and Spike in Season 6 than we saw between Buffy and all of her other lovers combined, and they were together for only a few weeks. We saw something actually better between them in Season 7. We saw trust, loyalty, and real affection. In its way, that's better and more promising for Buffy and Spike as a couple than all of the hot sweaty sex you could stuff into the entire season.

I do agree, that we saw a lot of passion in season six. And I do agree that they had a wonderful relationship in season seven. But with all that, we had to watch her kiss Angel, but we didn't get to see a passionate kiss between her and Spike, even though we should have... before the final fight or after she realized he was going to sacrifice himself to save the world. We didn't get that, and I felt cheated in that area.

[LifeIsJustThis]

Well said, great avenger :)

[Tranquillity]

I do agree, that we saw a lot of passion in season six. And I do agree that they had a wonderful relationship in season seven. But with all that, we had to watch her kiss Angel, but we didn't get to see a passionate kiss between her and Spike, even though we should have... before the final fight or after she realized he was going to sacrifice himself to save the world. We didn't get that, and I felt cheated in that area.

I 'spose it all depends on what you see when you're watching....
Here is a livejournal entry i came across from someone who saw plenty of kissin' - written, i assuming, not long after Chosen was first shown.
the_royal_anna: Chosen (http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/1340.html#cutid2)

[palabravampiress]

I didn't feel like we needed a whole lotta Spuffy shmooshing in season 7. I'm not pissed because Spike and Buffy didn't get any smoochies. I'm pissed because so much of what happened between them was left unsaid... while significant airtime was given to Angel, who had his own show and really didn't belong anymore. I think too much physical intimacy between Spike and Buffy would have been a bad thing. It would have reminded us of season 6 in general (or, if you're anti-Spuffy, of Seeing Red specifically) and worked to undermine positive character growth. One tender, loving kiss could have worked, though, if it was played in stark contrast to anything and everything that we saw in season 6. That could have said a lot, but I'm not sure it was necessary or even advisable.

My point is just that if we were gonna get kissy-kissy face and future talk (which, really, would have been "what-if-tomorrow's-the-end?" talk), then it should have come from the current relationships. More than that, though, I felt that both Spike and Anya deserved a little more time in this episode. So did the core four. More than I wanted to see a Bangel throwback, I wanted to see a tender hand squeeze or something between Xander and Anya. I wanted to see Giles and Buffy at least take a step toward healing the breach. I wanted to see Willow lean on someone other than Kennedy. And yeah, I think at least one non-ambiguous moment between Spike and Buffy would have been nice. Mostly, I just wanted that huge bunch of airtime to be devoted to the present and to the future, not to the past. If Angel was gonna stay and fight with the team, that would have been one thing. But since he left (again), I felt like that time was wasted on him when it could have been used on characters who were actually going to fight (and possibly die) in the finale.

[Dlou444]

I know it was "wrong" . I don't say "hello" to any of MY ex's like that!

[alexa]

I'm firmly against any Spuffy smooching.. specifically in season seven, because of what passed on Seeing Red. It just wouldn't sit well.. I know he's redeemed and everything, but I think this was achieved well enough with how close they became on a romantic level.. without it becoming sexual and complicated.
And uh, yep not just a 'hello' ..or I guess she's saying it didn't mean that they were getting back together right then and there because of the kiss. Maybe there are many forms of hello between those two :p

[white avenger]

I'm firmly against any Spuffy smooching.. specifically in season seven, because of what passed on Seeing Red. It just wouldn't sit well.. I know he's redeemed and everything, but I think this was achieved well enough with how close they became on a romantic level.. without it becoming sexual and complicated.
And uh, yep not just a 'hello' ..or I guess she's saying it didn't mean that they were getting back together right then and there because of the kiss. Maybe there are many forms of hello between those two :p


But in Season 7, Buffy's attitude toward Spike changed dramatically. Almost from the first, (well, as soon as she learned about his soul), she defended him to her friends, even after he hurt Dawn, something that Season 6 unsouled Spike would never have done. From her whole "You may not see it, Spike, but I do. I do. I believe in you." to defying Giles and keeping him around rather that running him off or killing him, even after Spike threatened to, and no doubt would have, kill Wood. And don't forget that she openly slept with him for the last three nights of the season, the last two under her own roof, Giles and everyone else be damned.

It would seem that everyone else, both friends and fans, seemed to hold the events of "Seeing Red" against Spike a whole lot longer than Buffy herself did, and considering the way things turned out, Spike illustrated with his loyalty to her and his self sacrifice in dying to save the world, her faith and belief were justified.
.

[alexa]

But in Season 7, Buffy's attitude toward Spike changed dramatically. Almost from the first, (well, as soon as she learned about his soul), she defended him to her friends, even after he hurt Dawn, something that Season 6 unsouled Spike would never have done. From her whole "You may not see it, Spike, but I do. I do. I believe in you." to defying Giles and keeping him around rather that running him off or killing him, even after Spike threatened to, and no doubt would have, kill Wood. And don't forget that she openly slept with him for the last three nights of the season, the last two under her own roof, Giles and everyone else be damned.

It would seem that everyone else, both friends and fans, seemed to hold the events of "Seeing Red" against Spike a whole lot longer than Buffy herself did, and considering the way things turned out, Spike illustrated with his loyalty to her and his self sacrifice in dying to save the world, her faith and belief were justified.
.

Not sure what you're not agreeing with me on. I enjoy their romance in season seven, but I appreciate that it wasn't sexual. Mostly because of the subtext of sleeping with someone who tried to rape you before. Having said that I do think that Spike being able to come back from that is and important message as well. I'm so complicated.. heh

[white avenger]

Not sure what you're not agreeing with me on. I enjoy their romance in season seven, but I appreciate that it wasn't sexual. Mostly because of the subtext of sleeping with someone who tried to rape you before. Having said that I do think that Spike being able to come back from that is and important message as well. I'm so complicated.. heh

Mostly that the events in "Seeing Red" should in any way served as a deterrent to the Buffy/Spike romance in Season 7' Other than a very few references at the first of the season, Buffy had pretty much put that whole thing behind her. Their relationship after Spike regained his soul was more romantic and more sexual. It just wasn't as physical. The look they shared in the cave at the nd of "Showtime" was one of the most romantic moments in the whole season, and even the Potentials (Rona, at least) commented on how "hot" just the act of their holding hands was.

[Buffanator]

But in Season 7, Buffy's attitude toward Spike changed dramatically. Almost from the first, (well, as soon as she learned about his soul), she defended him to her friends, even after he hurt Dawn, something that Season 6 unsouled Spike would never have done. From her whole "You may not see it, Spike, but I do. I do. I believe in you." to defying Giles and keeping him around rather that running him off or killing him, even after Spike threatened to, and no doubt would have, kill Wood. And don't forget that she openly slept with him for the last three nights of the season, the last two under her own roof, Giles and everyone else be damned.

It would seem that everyone else, both friends and fans, seemed to hold the events of "Seeing Red" against Spike a whole lot longer than Buffy herself did, and considering the way things turned out, Spike illustrated with his loyalty to her and his self sacrifice in dying to save the world, her faith and belief were justified.
.

I agree with you so much, I think this might be love! :happy30: :love14:

[Keanoite]

I didn't feel like we needed a whole lotta Spuffy shmooshing in season 7. I'm not pissed because Spike and Buffy didn't get any smoochies. I'm pissed because so much of what happened between them was left unsaid... while significant airtime was given to Angel, who had his own show and really didn't belong anymore. I think too much physical intimacy between Spike and Buffy would have been a bad thing. It would have reminded us of season 6 in general (or, if you're anti-Spuffy, of Seeing Red specifically) and worked to undermine positive character growth. One tender, loving kiss could have worked, though, if it was played in stark contrast to anything and everything that we saw in season 6. That could have said a lot, but I'm not sure it was necessary or even advisable.

My point is just that if we were gonna get kissy-kissy face and future talk (which, really, would have been "what-if-tomorrow's-the-end?" talk), then it should have come from the current relationships. More than that, though, I felt that both Spike and Anya deserved a little more time in this episode. So did the core four. More than I wanted to see a Bangel throwback, I wanted to see a tender hand squeeze or something between Xander and Anya. I wanted to see Giles and Buffy at least take a step toward healing the breach. I wanted to see Willow lean on someone other than Kennedy. And yeah, I think at least one non-ambiguous moment between Spike and Buffy would have been nice. Mostly, I just wanted that huge bunch of airtime to be devoted to the present and to the future, not to the past. If Angel was gonna stay and fight with the team, that would have been one thing. But since he left (again), I felt like that time was wasted on him when it could have been used on characters who were actually going to fight (and possibly die) in the finale.

I am on the complete other end of this arguement. I would have felt utterly cheated and left down if Angel, a huge figure in both Buffy's life and her verse, was not part of the show's finale somehow. I think he had every right to be included in Sunnydale's final chapter, he had earned it.

If he hadn't come then Spike wouldn't have had the chance to go out the way he did or created the connection that allowed him to be brought into Angel. His presence (Angel's) in the finale had a very definite purpose, not just for Bangel but for the continuity of Spike's character. Angel being there was essential.

[white avenger]

I am on the complete other end of this arguement. I would have felt utterly cheated and left down if Angel, a huge figure in both Buffy's life and her verse, was not part of the show's finale somehow. I think he had every right to be included in Sunnydale's final chapter, he had earned it.

If he hadn't come then Spike wouldn't have had the chance to go out the way he did or created the connection that allowed him to be brought into Angel. His presence (Angel's) in the finale had a very definite purpose, not just for Bangel but for the continuity of Spike's character. Angel being there was essential.


A agree (get out the smelling salts, Miss K, here we are agreeing on a Bangel issue again) that Angel was essential to the conclusion, as we saw it at that time, of the Buffy saga. It was part of the "going back to the beginning" theme, and, if for no other reason than to remind the viewers that he was there first, before this upstart bleached out vampire, and if there was any basking to be caused, he would be the one to cause it. He had every right to be there, and the writers used him almost in the same way that the Greek writers uses Apollo as the messenger of the gods, delivering his message, his enchanted amulet, and then returning to his Wolfram & Hart Olympus.

I would've been disappointed if he hadn't showed up, but I would have been just as disappointed if he had stayed to help in the fight, even if it would have mean that he would have been the one to die. Spike earned that. He got his soul to buy his ticket to that opera, and he deserved the front row seat.

[bob6666]

buffy was not seeing spike in season 7 she was helping him becouse he was haveing a hard time with his soul she never agreed to date him and only him. but she did have feeling for him and i disagree but may have love him i belive that she was unsure of her feeling for him and if spike did not die she would have date him. to she did not cheat on him with angel.

a part of buffy belive that angel would become humon and they would live happly ever after, but that is only a deam,, buffy still see angel as her hero and he will take care of her. i belive if they had to have a real realation ship it would not work

to all the spuffy fan i would like one favor stop picking on xander when spike came back with a soul xander let him stay with him, stood up to every one about not kill spike, and showed some kindness to him in season 7 so please stop makeing him seem like he would never let buffy date spike.

[white avenger]

a part of buffy belive that angel would become humon and they would live happly ever after, but that is only a deam,, buffy still see angel as her hero and he will take care of her. i belive if they had to have a real realation ship it would not work



I might be wrong (it happens generally 2 or 3 times a year, and I'm way overdue by now) but to the best of my knowledge, Buffy doesn't know anything whatsoever about the Shanshu prophecy and how it might affect Angel.

As for Angel, or anyone else, as "taking care of her," I think that's a fantasy Angel might have, but Buffy herself knows that she doesn't need anybody to take care of her. In fact, if the last 7 seasons are any indication, she'll be the one taking care of whoever she becomes involved with.

[Girl with Sword]

It wasn't a hellow, it wasn't a good-bye and it wasn't a choice. It was keeping her options open. I have said this on another thread but kissing Angel; because of their history and his personality, was not choosing him. Unfortunetley, sending him away was not choosing Spike, I think she just didn't want two big piles of dust on her living room floor. Staying with Spike that night was the perfect way to keep her options open. Kissing him(no, I don't think they had sex that night) or telling him she loves him would mean to much, it would be choosing.