Angel: AtF #9

[Exitmat]

First let me get the bad out of the way.

I don't like the new artist (Nick Runge) at all. Urru was much better, in my opinion. And I don't just mean at drawing the characters accurately (Runge gets quite sloppy--especially with Wes, Fred, and Conner). There are several panels that are just confusing--where the art is supposed to help explain what characters are talking about but fails to do so. I'm not someone who's picky about the art at all. I read comics more for the story. But when I'm having trouble understanding the story or seeing what I'm supposed to be seeing (because the backgrounds just magically disappear for some reason) then I have a problem.

Also, the writing felt a bit rushed on this issue. I've never had a problem with Lynch's writing before but there were several moments where I had to re-read a page or a panel because it wasn't clear what the characters were talking about.

Here are some Ex's:

- Page 7 with Gunn. In the 3rd panel he says "--Oh." What is he referring to? Conner coming in? And why is Conners first appearance in the issue and the battle shoved off into the corner of the panel?

- The whole Hagan Shaft stuff. Runge doesn't call enough attention to the shafts. I was totally confused what the heck a "hagan shaft" was supposed to be longer than I should have been.

- Page 11 - who is Spike talking to in panel 4? Gwen is standing right next to him, then all of a sudden she's gone in the next panel and Spike is talking to someone right in front of him. And since there isn't a background in the panels leading up to it I have no clue where all these people magically appeared from.

- The overall battle scene was really confusing. I had no idea where anyone was or what the big picture was supposed to look like. Look at pages 12 and 13 and tell me there's not A LOT of cheating going on there as far as rendering the scene goes. Solid color background in every panel--what happen to everything else?

- Page 18 - In the last panel Wes says, "Yes. Figured." Why? I see that Fred turned back to Illyria--is that what Wes is referring to? And if so why did he figure that would turn Fred to Illyria? What was Fred/Illyria's emotional reaction? Anger?

I also had some issues with the writing.

- Page 14 - Pronoun issues. Who is "they" that the other vamp is referring to? Who had other back-up plans? The other demons? Angel's buddies? And why does this bother Gunn? I don't get it.

- Page 19/20 - Too many pronouns going on again. First "she" is referring to Cordelia, then Fred. Yet there's no antecedent--"she" just changes. Writing out characters names doesn't hurt. Making things like this a mystery just feels kind of silly. We all know who the old characters are, so just say it already--but this not saying names thing is really dragging down the clarity and ease of the read.

- In the beginning of the issue all the focus is on Fred and Wesley. Then they just disappear for the entire middle section of the issue and we have no clue what happened to them. Did they run away for some reason? If so, why?

I've honestly never had such trouble figuring out what what's going on in a comic book as I did with this issue of Angel. I think most of the blame falls on Runge's shoulders for failure to convey setting, expression, and movement (I'm really not liking his stuff), but misplacing characters and using pronouns without antecedents and then switching who the pronoun is referring to is just sloppy.

As far as the rest of the issue goes, I like where they're going with it. Angel's "getting the band back together" and setting up his old shop again. I don't get Gunn's character right now though. He kept reacting verbally to something he saw, but either I didn't know what he was supposed to be seeing or I didn't get what the (lack of) expression on his face was supposed to convey in his reaction.

So overall, I like the story but I thought the execution of it was really sloppy and rushed.

[andrewcutter]

Dont you mean comic 9? because thats what you are describing.

I have to agree half way on the art work. at points the art looked very nice and at other times it was crap. jumping around too much for my taste. at least with the last atest everything was constant.

on a whol i enjoyed this issue dispite its few flaws and i am egger to see what the next issue has in-store.

As always i will have a youtube video review this issue and many others so please check it out. i will have it uploaded later tonight.

[Exitmat]

Dont you mean comic 9? because thats what you are describing.

I have to agree half way on the art work. at points the art looked very nice and at other times it was crap. jumping around too much for my taste. at least with the last atest everything was constant.

on a whol i enjoyed this issue dispite its few flaws and i am egger to see what the next issue has in-store.

As always i will have a youtube video review this issue and many others so please check it out. i will have it uploaded later tonight.

Yeah, I meant issue #9. Unfortunately I can't go back and edit the post now though. :/

Looking forward to your review.

[andrewcutter]

Yeah, I meant issue #9. Unfortunately I can't go back and edit the post now though. :/

Looking forward to your review.

its kool lol, happens to the best of us. btw my review is up.

ps anyone else think the powers tht be that weasly was trying o contact was cordy. seems like the best pick and in issue ten someone big returns

[Exitmat]

its kool lol, happens to the best of us. btw my review is up.

ps anyone else think the powers tht be that weasly was trying o contact was cordy. seems like the best pick and in issue ten someone big returns

Yeah, it was definitely Cordy.

Not sure how I feel about bringing back Wesley... and Fred... and now Cordy. Their deaths are kind of being stepped on now in my opinion. Especially since it doesn't seem as though they're bringing them back for anything more than than a few more issues of this one series. If it was for an ongoing series, I could see the argument. But reviving three major characters from death for a one 15-issue series--it just feels unnecessary.

[andrewcutter]

Yeah, it was definitely Cordy.

Not sure how I feel about bringing back Wesley... and Fred... and now Cordy. Their deaths are kind of being stepped on now in my opinion. Especially since it doesn't seem as though they're bringing them back for anything more than than a few more issues of this one series. If it was for an ongoing series, I could see the argument. But reviving three major characters from death for a one 15-issue series--it just feels unnecessary.

i agree totally, i think fred should have never come back and same with wes. as for cordy i really dont care because she left on a stupid note........ sure your welcome was a great epe but i just thought they could have done better


you know who else the person wes was trying to contact could be.... darla. I know its a long shot and i really hope its not but it is possable. however is 99.99% cordy but you never know

[Tranquillity]

I love the idea that Wes went to try and contact Cordy and that she seems to acctually be a 'Power That Be' or something similar and that she's finally got the job that she was 'offered' at the end of season three. Don't know if she will come back in the books but i, for one, would welcome her return.

Love-Love-Love that they returned to the hotel. In every fangirl-fantasy/fanfic/imagining I ever had for Angel after season five - they always ended up back at that hotel!

I love this comic. I love the dynamics they have created between characters, i love the pace of the story and how it is developing. This one was a little confusing in parts and it certainly required a number of reads to get what is going on (didn't help that the first time i read it two pages stuck together...) but it is still the only comic I read that has me reaching for a cigarette (metaphorically speaking) after i'm done.

Have to say I loved that panel of Spike with 'the girls' - that was lovely. Do 'the girls' look a bit slayer-ish? They look a bit slayer-ish to me...

[Exitmat]

I love this comic. I love the dynamics they have created between characters, i love the pace of the story and how it is developing. This one was a little confusing in parts and it certainly required a number of reads to get what is going on (didn't help that the first time i read it two pages stuck together...) but it is still the only comic I read that has me reaching for a cigarette (metaphorically speaking) after i'm done.

AtF is my favorite comic right now too. I think that's why I was so disappointed with this last issue--it wasn't up to the high standard the book has always measured up to.

[andrewcutter]

you know you think on how much the comic is selling and how popular it is that they would increase the number of issues to alot more than just 12ish.

[Allycat]

I agree with much of what has been said by the previous posters. It feels a bit rushed and I miss Franco... but I think that if we maybe give Nick a couple of issues, he might get better. Look at how much Georges' work improved over the course of his first few issues.

[Superstar]

Yeah, it was definitely Cordy.
So... Cordy takes possession of Wes' dead body and Illyria/Fred want a go at it so Wesghost can vicariously watch the consummation that never happened.
Meanwhile, possessed Wes' body makes a go for Angel.

There's just all kinds of bizarre semi-hetero gayness action in that triangle.

Ok, I'm joking. Really.

you know you think on how much the comic is selling and how popular it is that they would increase the number of issues to alot more than just 12ish.
Well, there is Spike: After the Fall coming up.

They can always continue it further with:
Wesley: After the Fall
Gunn: After the Fall
Illyria: After the Fall
Fred: After the Fall
Lorne: After the Fall
Connor: After the Fall
Kate: After the Fall
Gwen: After the Fall
Cordy: After the Fall
Spider: After the Fall
Civilians: After the Fall
HelLA: After the Fall
After the After the Fall

Yeah, a planned short run like that to tell what is supposed to be a major story is kinda lame unless you do indeed intend to utilize my mocking suggestions above.
Best guess as to real reason: lots of new 1st issues with multiple covers.

[andrewcutter]

wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to many after the fall lol. anyways i just hope you see how much people lover this comic and keep it going or atleast do another angel comic that is canon

[thegifting]

Another canon series is the best idea.
To do 40 someodd issues of Angel as anything but a vampire changes the game far too much. Also, S5 was the most character driven of the series, and ATF is expanding on that, as an extension of what's already happened, but in keeping it succinct we not only get the story we've been yearning after for 4 years, but a look at what the events of the previous 5 years did to everyone.

I say this often: Angel is the one television series that never lets you forget the past. Everything comes back, in one shape or another, for our protagonists, and often times even an exit by a character is a cliffhanger in and of itself, with something more to be said for it, even if dead means dead. I see a lot of bellyaching over characters that come back, over series length, over the speed and pace of what's happening in the books, but you complainers seriously need to shut the **** up. Tim Minear and David Fury, in my opinion, are the two driving forces behind Angel growing and turning into something never imaginable when the series started, but Joss, finally, took the reins of Angel and kept the work alive that made Angel so epic. Like Lynch or not, Angel is no longer the OTHER Buffy story, and that's the most important thing, and if that means a fleeting refrence of Cordelia, or Fred, or Wes still being around, then so be it.

With that said, #9 was pretty fantastic. It was, in my opinion, the most series-accurate written issue of After The Fall to date. Wes speaking of Cordy, Illyria holding dead Wesley again, and Angel's return to the Hyperion- too great.

[Exitmat]

...and if that means a fleeting refrence of Cordelia, or Fred, or Wes still being around, then so be it.

It's not a reference--they're actually all returning from the dead in some form.

[Tranquillity]

It's not a reference--they're actually all returning from the dead in some form.

Well, not really - Cordelia has only been alluded to (beautifully, but still only an allusion), Fred is reappearing periodically probably due to the influence of 'hell' on Illyria (and its doubtful if this will be permanent post-hell) and Wes is a ghost because he is still in service to W&H - which we have a precedent for in both Holland Manners and Lilah...

[Exitmat]

Well, not really - Cordelia has only been alluded to (beautifully, but still only an allusion), Fred is reappearing periodically probably due to the influence of 'hell' on Illyria (and its doubtful if this will be permanent post-hell) and Wes is a ghost because he is still in service to W&H - which we have a precedent for in both Holland Manners and Lilah...

Fred and Wes have both made actual appearances. All evidence points toward Cordelia returning as well next issue. Those aren't "fleeting references," they're explicit walking-talking returns from the dead.

[white avenger]

Well, not really - Cordelia has only been alluded to (beautifully, but still only an allusion), Fred is reappearing periodically probably due to the influence of 'hell' on Illyria (and its doubtful if this will be permanent post-hell) and Wes is a ghost because he is still in service to W&H - which we have a precedent for in both Holland Manners and Lilah...


I'm not sure if that really applies here. Manners and Lilah had contracts with W&H, but I don't think Angel or any of his crew signed any such document. At least they weren't shown doing so, and both Lilah and Eve had written contracts that they had to actually sign.

Wesley might say that he now works for the Senior Partners, might even believe it himself, but he might actually be working for someone else altogether.

[andrewcutter]

I'm not sure if that really applies here. Manners and Lilah had contracts with W&H, but I don't think Angel or any of his crew signed any such document. At least they weren't shown doing so, and both Lilah and Eve had written contracts that they had to actually sign.

Wesley might say that he now works for the Senior Partners, might even believe it himself, but he might actually be working for someone else altogether.

good pointi agree i dont think angel or his crew were at all shown signing any contract. The only two i can think that might have are wes and gunn

[Clem Rocks]

i think i read somewhere the Brian confirmed that seeing as "First night" got added into the main series, that "After the fall" is now about 15 issues long atleast

[andrewcutter]

i think i read somewhere the Brian confirmed that seeing as "First night" got added into the main series, that "After the fall" is now about 15 issues long atleast

yea.... not long enough. i think to get a good story at the VERY LEAST 25 issues. but i would like to see 50 to be satisfied

[LawgSkrak]

I think they should stick the the 12ish issues, then cancel it and do a REAL Season 6, treating After the Fall as a Summer Movie Special that takes place in between Seasons 5 and 6.

Then they could set the comic series up in the same format as Buffy Season 8.

[Superstar]

I think they should stick the the 12ish issues, then cancel it and do a REAL Season 6
As my 100th post (go me!), I'll address this with a reply.

IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.
Go to their website and see. Zero count on a continuing regular run series.
They don't like long running series. They like lots of little ones.
Part of my joke earlier on the numerous titles. They also like lots of 1st issues and variant covers.
This is how they make their money. That and TPB's.

You will not see a long running Angel series from them. You will not see a long running series on anything from them.
Even the flagship that put them on the map; 30 Days of Night does not rate a long running series commitment.
That thought process of a regular series is not in their business model.
They stay at low runs for easy to manage TPB conversion.
I'm not necessarily knocking the model they use, it obviously works well for them.
I'm just very realistic is all.

You can give up any hope of what you are wishing for right now and save yourself the disappointment.
It was a nice thought, but it has a snowball's chance in HelLA of ever happening.

[LawgSkrak]

Well, then Angel should just go back to dark Horse. lol

As my 100th post (go me!), I'll address this with a reply.

IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.
Go to their website and see. Zero count on a continuing regular run series.
They don't like long running series. They like lots of little ones.
Part of my joke earlier on the numerous titles. They also like lots of 1st issues and variant covers.
This is how they make their money. That and TPB's.

You will not see a long running Angel series from them. You will not see a long running series on anything from them.
Even the flagship that put them on the map; 30 Days of Night does not rate a long running series commitment.
That thought process of a regular series is not in their business model.
They stay at low runs for easy to manage TPB conversion.
I'm not necessarily knocking the model they use, it obviously works well for them.
I'm just very realistic is all.

You can give up any hope of what you are wishing for right now and save yourself the disappointment.
It was a nice thought, but it has a snowball's chance in HelLA of ever happening.

[thegifting]

Well, not really - Cordelia has only been alluded to (beautifully, but still only an allusion), Fred is reappearing periodically probably due to the influence of 'hell' on Illyria (and its doubtful if this will be permanent post-hell) and Wes is a ghost because he is still in service to W&H - which we have a precedent for in both Holland Manners and Lilah...

Exactly (,and you're one of my favorite posters here). Of the "recently" departed, the only one in charge of their afterlife is Charles. Illyria isn't becoming Fred- it's still just a modulation of her form, and we knew she began adopting Fred's essence as her own at the end of S5. And what is Wes doing? He converses and sometimes provides a distraction- and the only time we've actually seen Wesely as the real Wes, the one he became as a man, was in issue 7, and was handled with unbelievable grace. And I couldn't agree more about Cordy's refrence being utterly gorgeous, but even if she shows up it's not like she's coming back from the dead (And I have no ****ing idea why people keep saying that), as I think S3, S4, and "You're Welcome" made it very clear that Cordelia is, and has been, the most 'living' of the entire group.

Is there actually confusion about this? Really?

Edit:

IDW does not make long running series - ever. They have none on their resume.

You are completely wrong. One of the best books released today by any company is IDW's Fallen Angel, and it has a great back catalogue, and amazing future ahead of it.

http://i15.tinypic.com/6sspqu9.jpg

[Exitmat]

Exactly (,and you're one of my favorite posters here). Of the "recently" departed, the only one in charge of their afterlife is Charles. Illyria isn't becoming Fred- it's still just a modulation of her form, and we knew she began adopting Fred's essence as her own at the end of S5. And what is Wes doing? He converses and sometimes provides a distraction- and the only time we've actually seen Wesely as the real Wes, the one he became as a man, was in issue 7, and was handled with unbelievable grace. And I couldn't agree more about Cordy's refrence being utterly gorgeous, but even if she shows up it's not like she's coming back from the dead (And I have no ****ing idea why people keep saying that), as I think S3, S4, and "You're Welcome" made it very clear that Cordelia is, and has been, the most 'living' of the entire group.

Is there actually confusion about this? Really?

Fred is not a modulation as she was for Illyria in S5. Read issue 9 again.

Illyria: "She's here. I try to push her down--but then I see the faces of those she loved... and she fights back."

Wesley: "There's no logical reason for any part of Fred to be inside you."

Illyria: "I have told myself that countless times. But here she is, infecting me inside... and out."

I don't see how Lynch could have made it any clearer that Illyria is not modulating Fred, and that she lost control of herself to what is (somehow) left of Fred.

As for Wesley, whether he's playing a small or big role, or what he even looks like is irrelevant--it's still the same man inside, and he isn't exactly dead. It most definitely counts as a return.

On Cordelia: there have been preview lines about Angel fighting for someone else's life he never thought he would see again in issue 10, as well as statements made about a "big return." Also, I too loved how they hinted at Cordelia in issue 9. I just don't think I'm ready to see her return.

If you like the returns I totally don't blame you. Lynch is handling them very well and they all make sense, story-wise. Personally I just think it's too much, and that all of them together are kind of cheapening the deaths and the sacrifices the characters made. To each their own though. :)

Either way, though, it's hard to argue that Fred, Wes, Gunn, and (if things play out as expected) Cordy didn't all return from the dead in some very explicit form.

[thegifting]

Apparently so. Fred is not a modulation as she was for Illyria in S5. Read issue 9 again.

Illyria: "She's here. I try to push her down--but then I see the faces of those she loved... and she fights back."

Wesley: "There's no logical reason for any part of Fred to be inside you."

Illyria: "I have told myself that countless times. But here she is, infecting me inside... and out."

Ummm, okay. But that doesn't mean it's Fred. Here's my S5 opinion from a thread (http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=36173).

Both Fred and Illyria were crying.
The line where Fred ends and Illyria begins became very hazy, as even Fred's prefrences about the world came out of Illyria, and she was completely natural and accepting of it. (In either Power Play or Not Fade Away, Illyria tells Gunn that she doesn't find him unpleasent to her eyes.)
Beyond that, there's a lot of arguments that say that Illyria isn't still "Illyria". The Mutari Generator, sure. She even says that she is her power, implying anything less would be a different being.
Looking at text in the show, though, it's deeper than that. Much.
In "A Hole In The World", near the end of the episode, Fred is on her bed and begins hallucinating, points to Wesley and says "I'm with him!" After she calms down she takes Wesley's hand, places it on her heart, and says "He's with me." It's very clear to me that the demon god Illyria became tied to Wesley before she even destroyed Fred's soul by ressurecting, and becoming bound to Fred ("I could change it if I cared to", is what she said, I believe, in refrence to that subject).
Which, also, points to the notion that Fred and Illyria are one being. If you placed, say, a stack of paper of top of a pizza, inside of a box, then cooked it, would the ash not taint and be a factor in all the changes that would then occur to everything having to do with the pizza?
The paper would be Fred's soul, the pizza is capacity of life, the box is the physical shell, and the oven is Illyria. Even though Fred's soul may have been burnt, as paper would be, all that Illyria was changed the moment she clawed her way into Fred's body, becoming saturated with not just humanity- but the humanity of Winifred Burkle.

I could continue on, but, in summation, I believe the continued existance of both Fred and Illyria makes them reliant on one another, and the tears were from them both.

Let's just assume that I was right, which I was: IT'S STILL NOT FRED. It's still Illyria, and no matter how she's feeling, or what she's becoming, it's not Winifred Burkle.

As for Wesley- sure, it's his ghost, spirit, call it what you will, but for us to say something constitutes a person would depend on our ability to claim the same for ourselves. Personally, I don't see myself as simply my spirit. I am my life, my recollections, my triumphs, failures, my scars, and my body. Maybe you arn't a 'whole picture' kind of person when it comes to this, but even so, anything less than the whole does not carry the identity of the whole, in my opinion, leading me to believe that Wesley "isn't all there". Also, we know how Wesley thinks, from his own S5 conversations with Illyria. She would reveal more and more of what is left of Fred becoming her (wanting to have sex with Wesley, having Fred's memories and appearance, etc. [some of which I mentioned in my above quote]), and Wesley didn't consider that enough to constitute Fred, and was offended at the allegation, so I doubt he would think of himself as Wesley Price now. READ: Wesley would argue that Wesley's not exactly Wesley.

As for the deaths being cheapened- I disagree. I think each character, Fred aside (the random variable in everything), has recieved exactly what they deserve, from a moral standpoint. Charles deserves to hate himself for all time, Wesley deserved worse I would argue, and Cordy deserves to be the being of pure bliss she was 'going' to be at the end of S3. I like Wes coming back because he's still a good man being used as an instrument of evil against Angel (so it seems), which really would make him have to fight to, once and for all, clear his name. Cordelia said she'd be watching Angel, and seems to have been working on getting into LA, in some form, which I take a breathtaking and utterly sensational keeping of her promise to fight evil, and always support and love Angel with evereything she has. But, as you said, to each their own.

[Superstar]

You are completely wrong. One of the best books released today by any company is IDW's Fallen Angel, and it has a great back catalogue, and amazing future ahead of it.
After I acknowledged the book you mentioned I went and looked a little deeper. Thanks for the heads up.
I really didn't think IDW had it in them. So it came over from DC because they cancelled it? I don't buy any DC so no surprise I'd never seen it.
It initially started at IDW as a 5 issue limited series. No surprise there.

I'm glad you enjoy the book, but I also see it is written by Peter David and definitely not one of my favorite writers.
On top of that it seems to have some heavy religious issues, which places another strike (or twelve) on the pass column.

But I do appreciate knowing that IDW can venture into a regular series.

Edit:

I can understand your reasoning.
Thanks.
The only IDW books I get are Angel and Star Trek OS stuff which is infrequently published.
They seem to like the newer Trek and I pass on that. What can I say, I'm finicky.
Whoo-hoo to D.C. Fontana writing Enterprise Experiment though. Always wondered what happened to that Romulan device Kirk appropriated.
In fact, I really don't buy many comics. I do like hearing what others buy as it serves as a mini-review. You never know if something will sound good.
I heard about DC's All Star line that way on another board.

IDW (Idea Design Works) seems to develop many ideas - mainly horror, they just don't seem to go anywhere beyond limited run stage.
The resume really is quite impressive for a company less than 10 years old.

Back to Angel... still not gonna happen. I don't think you are disagreeing with me on that.

[Exitmat]

Ummm, okay. But that doesn't mean it's Fred. Here's my S5 opinion from a thread (http://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=36173).



Let's just assume that I was right, which I was: IT'S STILL NOT FRED. It's still Illyria, and no matter how she's feeling, or what she's becoming, it's not Winifred Burkle.

As for Wesley- sure, it's his ghost, spirit, call it what you will, but for us to say something constitutes a person would depend on our ability to claim the same for ourselves. Personally, I don't see myself as simply my spirit. I am my life, my recollections, my triumphs, failures, my scars, and my body. Maybe you arn't a 'whole picture' kind of person when it comes to this, but even so, anything less than the whole does not carry the identity of the whole, in my opinion, leading me to believe that Wesley "isn't all there". Also, we know how Wesley thinks, from his own S5 conversations with Illyria. She would reveal more and more of what is left of Fred becoming her (wanting to have sex with Wesley, having Fred's memories and appearance, etc. [some of which I mentioned in my above quote]), and Wesley didn't consider that enough to constitute Fred, and was offended at the allegation, so I doubt he would think of himself as Wesley Price now. READ: Wesley would argue that Wesley's not exactly Wesley.

As for the deaths being cheapened- I disagree. I think each character, Fred aside (the random variable in everything), has recieved exactly what they deserve, from a moral standpoint. Charles deserves to hate himself for all time, Wesley deserved worse I would argue, and Cordy deserves to be the being of pure bliss she was 'going' to be at the end of S3. I like Wes coming back because he's still a good man being used as an instrument of evil against Angel (so it seems), which really would make him have to fight to, once and for all, clear his name. Cordelia said she'd be watching Angel, and seems to have been working on getting into LA, in some form, which I take a breathtaking and utterly sensational keeping of her promise to fight evil, and always support and love Angel with evereything she has. But, as you said, to each their own.

I think you have a really great argument on the Fred/Illyiria issue, but I still don't see enough evidence to make your theory anything more than that at this point (although you have a great paper there if you ever wish to pursue it--and you should).

Also, we're going off in a little bit of a different direction. How much of Fred is in Illyria, and how much Wesley is still in Wesley, is a much bigger subject for debate (although still totally relevant).

My only point with the returns was that we're seeing those old characters coming back in walking talking ways that, with their deaths, shouldn't have been possible. When a character dies and they return in ANY form--especially for a regularly recurring role--the permanency of their death is kind of diminished. Going back and watching those moments when the characters died will just never have the same impact they used to.

In all honesty the returns don't bother me all that much because I love these characters and I think Whedon and Lynch are handling it well with how they're writing it. My biggest gripe is that they're all being brought back for one 15-issue mini-series. An ongoing series I can understand--you can do justice with those stories--but having Wesley, Fred, Gunn, and (possibly) Cordy all cheat death coming out of season 5, while also telling Angel's story AND devoting 3 issues to First Night--I just don't see how it's going to be possible to bring back all these characters as well as wrap up their stories in a satisfying way by issue #15.

Good discussion though. You bring up some good points on the subject of each character's return. It'll be interesting to see how they all play out. Until then, I'll continue to be hooked on AtF. :)

[thegifting]

I understand what you're getting at a bit better now, when you mentioned watching the show's deaths. And death episodes are always auto-faves for me, but I don't think those are taken away from on an emotional level. Like in life, we find new life for old things from birth until our last day, but just because things "heal" doesn't forget the pain of the moment. Often times, like with Wesley's situation, I think it's made more poignant because he didn't get the sweet release that, somewhere deep inside, he wanted since S3's happenings. You're smart, though. I like your posts. Keep on enjoying, because I like that others are as smart and passionate here.

[andrewcutter]

whow lol i going to step beck now lol.

for me i think cordy is going to come back however she wont be around long than an issue or two
personally i rather he just stay dead.

as for angel comice series..... i know after the fall will end and i am not getting my hopes up, however i can see another comic company pick angel up some time.

as for the illyria fred thing, i mentioned in my video review that in the beginning of the comic series ot was portrayed as fred coming back some how and part of her was sharing a body with illyria, it was even stated by joss that if he was allowed to do a tv season 6 that he would do something like that, however in comic nine the way illyria describes whats happening to her it seems that fred long gone and only pieces of her remain.

I think its best for us to just wait until the next issue.