Canonical Buffyverse material

[sranjan]

Hi all,

I am a relatively recent convert to the Buffyverse. Over the last year, I finished watching Buffy, and I'm holding out on the last two episodes of AtS because I really don't want it to end :).

Anyhow, I understand there exist a number of canonical buffyverse comics that continue/expand the buffyverse. I was wondering if anyone could point me to a list of these so I can buy them up :). I vastly prefer collections/compilations (e.g. trade paperbacks) b/c it's more convenient/space effective for me, so if you know a list that indicates these, that would be awesome.

Back to staying away from Angel to avoid the pain...

Thanks,

SR

[Superstar]

Canon. Always a touchy subject.
There are some comics done by previous Buffyverse writers, but the status of "canon" on those is uncertain.
If you consider "canon" only that approved by Joss then it becomes much simpler.

Canon listing:
* Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV episodes
* Angel TV episodes
* Angel: Long Night's Journey comic
* Fray comic
* Select stories from Tales of the Slayers comic
* Select stories from Tales of the Vampires comic
* Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight comic
* Angel: After the Fall comic
* Spike: After the Fall comic

Tentative canon:
* Buffy: The Origin comic

Previous Buffy writer "canon"
* Select stories from Tales of the Slayers comic
* Select stories from Tales of the Vampires comic
* Ring of Fire comic (by Doug Petrie)
* Bad Dog comic (by Doug Petrie)
* Double Cross comic (by Doug Petrie)
* Jonathan: Codename Comrades comic (by Jane Espenson)
* Reunion comic (by Jane Espenson)
* Haunted comic (by Jane Espenson)

Is that what you were looking for?

[The Kinslayer]

I really haven´t got the hang of the canon vs none-canon stuff but if you´re looking for Buffy seasn 8 I hope this help you.

The long way home Amazon.com: Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, Volume 1: The Long Way Home: Joss Whedon, Andy Owens, Georges Jeanty, Jo Chen: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Season-Eight/dp/1593078226/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214652890&sr=1-1)


No future for you Amazon.com: No Future For You (Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, Volume 2): Brian K. Vaughan, Joss Whedon, Georges Jeanty, Cliff Richards, Jo Chen: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Future-Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Season/dp/159307963X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214652939&sr=1-1)


Wolves at the gate Amazon.com: Wolves at the Gate (Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, Volume 3): Drew Goddard, Joss Whedon, Georges Jeanty, Jo Chen: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Season/dp/1595821651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214652970&sr=1-1)

But the season 8 comics also includes “The chain”, “Anywhere but here” and “A beautiful sunset”. The best place to buy them I have no idea. I live in the wrong country for that knowledge. And regarding other comics I hope someone else will help you.



edit: Boy, was I late.

[Superstar]

But the season 8 comics also includes “The chain”, “Anywhere but here” and “A beautiful sunset”.
TPB Vol. 1 The Long Way Home consists of the 4 issue arc and The Chain
TPB Vol. 2 No Future for You consists of the 4 issue arc and Anywhere but Here
TPB Vol. 3 Wolves at the Gate consists of the 4 issue arc and A Beautiful Sunset.

[Tranquillity]

I always thought Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers were straight canon?

[Superstar]

I always thought Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers were straight canon?
No. That's why I specifically stated "select stories".
It all depends on your view of "canon".
Here's the full breakdown.

Tales of the Slayers:
Prologue - (canon) Joss Whedon
Righteous - (canon) Joss Whedon
The Innocent- (non-canon) Amber Benson
Presumption - (non-canon) Jane Espenson - Previous Writer
The Glittering World - (non-canon) David Fury - Previous Writer
Sonnenblume - (non-canon) Rebecca Rand Kirshner - Previous Writer
Nikki Goes Down - (non-canon) Doug Petrie - Previous Writer
Tales - (canon) Joss Whedon (the Fray epilogue)

Tales of the Vampires - Issue 1
Tales of the Vampires Intro - (canon) Joss Whedon
The Problem with Vampires - (non-canon) Drew Goddard - Previous Writer
Stacy - (canon) Joss Whedon

Tales of the Vampires - Issue 2
Tales of the Vampires Intro - (canon) Joss Whedon
Spot the Vampire - (non-canon) Jane Espenson - Previous Writer
Jack - (non-canon) Brett Matthews

Tales of the Vampires - Issue 3
Tales of the Vampires Intro - (canon) Joss Whedon
Father - (non-canon) Jane Espenson - Previous Writer
Antique - (non-canon) Drew Goddard - Previous Writer (yes, this is the Xander/Dracula story)

Tales of the Vampires - Issue 4
Tales of the Vampires Intro - (canon) Joss Whedon
Dust Bowl - (non-canon) Jane Espenson - Previous Writer
Taking Care of Business - (non-canon) Ben Edlund - Previous Writer (the Smile Time guy)

Tales of the Vampires - Issue 5
Tales of the Vampires Intro - (canon) Joss Whedon
Some Like it Hot (non-canon) Sam Loeb
Numb - (non-canon) Brett Matthews

Drawing on your Nightmares
Tales of the Vampires: Dames - (non-canon) Brett Matthews

Edit:

Additional Information

Of note: Jane Espenson is a regular writer for the Buffyverse, as is Rebecca Rand Kirshner, Doug Petrie, Drew Goddard and David Fury.

Brett Matthews wrote Heart of Gold for Firefly and is involved with the Serenity comics.
Ben Edlund wrote and directed Smile Time on Angel.
Amber Benson obviously played the character Tara.
Sam Loeb (mentioned in another post) was a 17 year old who just began writing in comics and later died of cancer. He was the reason Joss Whedon asked Marvel to let him help out (the clause was not in his contract) on the memorial Superman/Batman story for DC that Sam had written.

[nerd4hire]

I don't know Superstar. Once you start applying rules to Tales of the Slayers, and Tales of the Vampires you enter the debatey side of Canon, even under the Joss, or Joss-authorized rule.

When Joss allowed the Tales of the Slayers slayers to appear in The Chain, and allowed the Dracula story from Tales of the Vampires to continue into the canon Season 8 isn't he pretty much saying those two series are authorized as canon by proxy. Fray might have been Fray canon, but by my memory people didn't really start talking about it as Buffy canon until the scythe appeared in Buffy Season 7. If ToTS, and TotV aren't canon now, then why is Angel After the Fall, or going another step - Spike After the Fall. We only have IDW's word on Joss authorization with that last one, and they've lied in the past.

[Superstar]

I don't know Superstar. Once you start applying rules to Tales of the Slayers, and Tales of the Vampires you enter the debatey side of Canon, even under the Joss, or Joss-authorized rule.
Yes, and why I originally said:
There are some comics done by previous Buffyverse writers, but the status of "canon" on those is uncertain.

By the same token - Betta George has been inserted by proxy, it does not automatically make Spike: Asylum "canon".

Spike: Asylum takes place after "Not Fade Away" and thus "After the Fall" as well.

Do you see what I mean by "Canon. Always a touchy subject."

I identified those stories that are as close to what would be considered "inviolable canon" and gave information on the others so that the individual can choose.

I choose to err on the side of caution and let people believe what the wish.

[nerd4hire]

Well yeah, it's a touchy subject. Always has been. Which makes me wonder if I'm hearing the tone I think I'm hearing that seems to imply those rules you've applied to what you believe is canon are themselves canonical.

Now to me and a significant cut of people I've read here and there all of Tales of the Slayers became canon when the ToTS slayers appeared in the generally accepted as canon Season 8. Beta George is not necessarily the same thing because Brian Lynch is not Joss Whedon, and yes I do know Joss is supposed to have told Lynch to go ahead with the fish thing.

If all of ToTS is not canon, then a case can be made for Angel After the Fall not being canon in spite of the fact Joss appeared to authorize both as such, one by statement, one by implication.

For a short while there it was all so simple, and it was nice to look down our noses at other fandoms like Doctor Who and Star Trek, because they didn't have a clear canon. Now though things have once more gotten complicated, and until Joss sets down a clear set of guidelines they seem to be destined to remain as such. In fact he makes things even more fuzzy when he makes comments like the one at Paleyfest suggesting he'd throw Season 8 canon out if he ever got a Buffy movie.

[Superstar]

By your own admission you are also making a judgment call. Mine is simply less assumptive as authoritative.
Now to me and a significant cut of people I've read here and there all of Tales of the Slayers became canon when the ToTS slayers appeared in the generally accepted as canon Season 8.
Again, I presented the facts as they stand. Not based on what I read on a BBS somewhere or personal opinion of what people believe.
If you want them to be canon in your view, nothing anyone can say will alter that. Go you!
However, presenting them (the stories) as definitive "canon" is misleading.
If it helps any, you can think of it as product placement. ;)

I even took the additional effort to break the stories that could be attributed as possible "canon", not just Tales, into their respective sources and credited them as to origin. The reader is free to choose as always. I left out other comics written by actors such as Spike & Dru and Willow & Tara since these are of even less authority on "canon".

As for After the Fall and Buffy Season 8, the outlines of what happens are by Joss - the niggling details... not so much.

Please don't mistake my canon presentation for disregard of the stories themselves - including novels.

Although I do need to add:
Broken Bottle of Djinn - (Non-canon) Jane Espenson - Previous Writer

I inadvertently left this one off the list.

[nerd4hire]

It sounds like we're both not hearing what we think the other is saying clearly

I'll try to state my version clearly. The rules of Buffyverse canon are becoming steadily more fuzzy. You have one opinion on what the niggling details of canon might be. I and others have another. That's not a statement of consensus. It's saying you don't necessarily speak for the consensus yourself, and therefore have no claim to authoritative fact.

Somebody said he thought all of Tales of the Slayers, and Tales of the Vampires were canon. You replied authoritatively "No", then proceeded to list the individual stories which according to you were canon.

I disagree. To me all of Tales of the Slayer, and the Tales of the Vampires are canon as a result of my best of understanding of the "Joss authorized" rule. I also suggest the borders of that rule are getting fuzzy, and might not even mean much anymore. However, and let me state this one with emphasis. That is all my personal opinion.

Now did I misunderstand you? When you stated all of ToTS, and ToTV are not canon, was that your opinion, or were you saying it is an indisputable fact? Because, you see it sounded pretty clear to me that you were suggesting the latter. If it was the former we don't have an argument, only two accepted statements of differing opinions.

[Superstar]

Because, you see it sounded pretty clear to me that you were suggesting the latter [cf. indisputable fact].
I understand what you are saying and I hear you. I explained repeatedly the difference.

The closest on the list which is easily explainable to what I am using as the yardstick you mention is Buffy: The Origin. It is "Joss approved", but he still does not hold every part of it as "canon". That's why it is specifically labeled tentative canon since it is a separate piece. "Joss approved" only goes so far, and why I also made the distinctions listed in my first post.

The phrase used in the question resulting in the complete break down of the Tales stories was "straight canon". In fact, when you look at the list he only has 2 actual stories listed, everything else is "intro". Joss does not hold the novelization of Serenity as "straight canon" either - what his opinions of Buffy/Angel novelizations are is unknown to me. I labeled each Joss "straight canon" story as "canon". Everything else is labeled non-canon by that criteria; especially so since that has the least amount of question to its authority - and as mentioned already even that definition of canon may be fleeting.

It will always be a judgment until a definitive answer is given for each, I made that clear by the repeated usage of "canon" for each group entry - acknowledging each variable in the "consensus" as having a valid view and specifically stating (repeatedly) it is up to the reader to decide, thus removing myself from ultimate authority. I'm not sure why I have to keep telling you this.

Barring Joss listing each and every comic story written by various "canon groups" with a YES/NO it will remain so - long live the canon wars. I made no claim to "authoritative fact" other than to show what was written by Joss, what was written by ex-writers and anyone else with a stake in the "canon war". Some of the consensus in this war hold Joss only as canon, some hold anything written by previous writers as additional canon, and some hold actor tales as canon as well because they "know their characters and were involved with the show"; although the only one to enter that list and show representation is from Amber Benson.

I am sorry I have not been able to make that clear enough for you - or anyone else, if applicable, reading this thread.
I'll even repeat my very first line in the very first post I made on this: Canon. Always a touchy subject.
It is frankly absurd to think that since I recognize this and take extra effort to show the differences to then be accused of taking a stance as ultimate authority. I am trying to not be offended, but it is taking some effort. I have done just about everything possible to remove personal judgment from this list as much as possible and keep it basic yet still recognize other opinions.

This statement particularly is offensive, among others:
You have one opinion on what the niggling details of canon might be.
I am hoping that this is in reference to my comment on outlines and not something twisted out of context regarding my presentation - considering I gave little to no details on what I consider niggling regarding outlines for After the Fall or Season 8. Even that concession in intent is stretching credibility in your attitude. And for that, I will take a personal stand on this issue.

Joss does not "approve" every panel, which consists of color, composition, background or any other of a number of artistic footprints.
Those are done by the artists. Your entire argument of canonical inclusion of Tales rests on a single drawing and an oblique in-house author reference to a Xander/Dracula story in Tales; a story written by the same author (his only previous contribution in Buffy comics) who scripted (read as not Joss) Wolves at the Gate as proof positive that Tales is now "straight canon".

THAT is a niggling detail relative only to Season 8. We already covered one for After the Fall.

This is tantamount to, say, Jane Espenson coming on board in a later arc of season 8 and referencing her Haunted story, which by proxy makes that "straight canon" according to your criteria - even if the reference is a single panel.

And here I will repeat yet again... if you want them to be canon, go you!
If you want the novel "Immortal" to be canon in your view, Go You!

[nerd4hire]

I made no claim to "authoritative fact"

Cool. So what we have then including your mention of what you refer to as "straight canon" is just an opinion. I've heard yours. . Mine is Tales of the Vampires, and Tales of the Slayers became canon when Joss chose to spin from them, and write their details into the canon Buffy Season 8.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Cool. So what we have then including your mention of what you refer to as "straight canon" is just an opinion. I've heard yours. . Mine is Tales of the Vampires, and Tales of the Slayers became canon when Joss chose to spin from them, and write their details into the canon Buffy Season 8.

I think what he was saying was more along the lines that the ones he listed as "Cannon" are completely indesputable. The one's listed as non-cannon are only listed as such because there is some doubt. They may be drawn upon in the future, but it is impossible to say with 100% certainty that they are cannon. However, he did acknowledge that the list was very strict in it's interpretation of cannon, as many people count the entire Tales of the... as Cannon. They cannot be 100% conclusively said to be as such though, and that's where personal opinion comes in. His referencing of "straight cannon" is not opinion. That is fact. His referencing of "non-canon" is much more subjective, however.

[nerd4hire]

Is it indisputable though? If Joss says (as he did) he'll throw season 8 out if he ever gets a chance at a movie does that mean Season 8 is "straight canon", or temporarily straight canon?

In fact we know it isn't indisputable, because it often is disputed. I've seen multiple claims the only true canon is the TV series.

Would Angel After the Fall be "straight canon"? If so that would vague the rules on ToTs, and ToTV. Possibly even on Origin, definitely on the spin off they're calling canon now, Spike After the Fall. Perhaps the only way you could have true canon would be if Joss specifically stated what was what, never broke the rules, and their was a universally accepted consensus. Now me, I'm not sure true canon is even possible. Which means once more, here we are, a bunch of people with opinions.

The term 'straight canon' is not a fact. It's a fan invention. A construct. An opinion. It is not itself canon. Speaking of canon in definitive terms will always bring out debate among the more devoted. This much I'm pretty confident of.

[Keanoite]

Sorry lads not trying to but in here but even the TV series canon isn't safe...look what he did with Warren, he changed the show's canon to suit the comic.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Is it indisputable though? If Joss says (as he did) he'll throw season 8 out if he ever gets a chance at a movie does that mean Season 8 is "straight canon", or temporarily straight canon?

In fact we know it isn't indisputable, because it often is disputed. I've seen multiple claims the only true canon is the TV series.

Would Angel After the Fall be "straight canon"? If so that would vague the rules on ToTs, and ToTV. Possibly even on Origin, definitely on the spin off they're calling canon now, Spike After the Fall. Perhaps the only way you could have true canon would be if Joss specifically stated what was what, never broke the rules, and their was a universally accepted consensus. Now me, I'm not sure true canon is even possible. Which means once more, here we are, a bunch of people with opinions.

The term 'straight canon' is not a fact. It's a fan invention. A construct. An opinion. It is not itself canon. Speaking of canon in definitive terms will always bring out debate among the more devoted. This much I'm pretty confident of.

Ok, I see your point, but we have to draw the line somewhere. I suppose it could be debatable, and yes, he could always change it - that's his perogative - but I still think the list is pretty good. But I don't really want to argue about it, because the very point of your post is that we probably can't agree! So...I agree. Well, with that anyway. When it gets fuzzy everyone will have a differing opinion.

Sorry lads not trying to but in here but even the TV series canon isn't safe...look what he did with Warren, he changed the show's canon to suit the comic.

Retcons don't really bring the cannonity (is that even a word?) of the original source material into question. They change specific sections. As of now, Season 8 is Cannon, so the First appearing as Warren never actually happened. The rest is still the same though, unless other bits are retconned. It's messy, but when working across 8 seasons it's somewhat inevitable. It doesn't help that Joss admitted it was a mistake though...

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Ok, I see your point, but we have to draw the line somewhere. I suppose it could be debatable, and yes, he could always change it - that's his perogative - but I still think the list is pretty good. But I don't really want to argue about it, because the very point of your post is that we probably can't agree! So...I agree. Well, with that anyway. When it gets fuzzy everyone will have a differing opinion.



Retcons don't really bring the cannonity (is that even a word?) of the original source material into question. They change specific sections. As of now, Season 8 is Cannon, so the First appearing as Warren never actually happened.

Um, actually that's not the case: all that would be necessary to make it jibe with "the facts as we know them" is for Amy to have lied to Warren about her part in his "survival" - i.e., all that it needs is for Warren to have actually "died" for a minute, since it was known even during Season 7 that the First could appear as anyone who had died; it wasn't necessary for them to be dead at the time, so if his heart stopped and Amy resuscitated him by whatever means (magick, CPR, a 220-volt line up the... er, nevermind...) then, he should have been fair game for the First's roleplaying, with only a minor adjustment in continuity. Now, that's a bit of a clumsy fix; but, since the mistake was made, it's probably a better option than trying to erase all those appearances.

[nerd4hire]

Here's another one. There's a little known thing written by Joss and Brett Matthews called Long Nights Journey.

Now we can't know exactly what Joss's part was in that. Was he in charge? How much did he write? Apparently, it sucks, so I'm going to assume he didn't play much of a part. Nevertheless he is listed as one of the 2 writers.

So is that one "straight canon"? If it's not why are the Season 8 issues not written solely by Joss considered what you guys want to call SC?

If it is then we now must go and rewrite all of the thousands of essays and message board posts dealing with the Gypsy curse, and how it affected Angel. I haven't read the 4 part TPB, but apparently according to Long Night's Journey the curse was not meant for Angel. It was meant for a more powerful vampire. Angel being cursed was an accident.

[Superstar]

Hey, Nerd4Hire...

I'm going to finally weigh in for you with my own personal views of what I consider "canon" now that the list is out there as a reference for people to utilize in their collecting.

Maybe I'll surprise you with my views on this.

Joss written and/or supervised = Canon
Ex-mutant enemy writers (Joss supervised or not) = Canon

Is that surprising for you?
I told you I kept my own views out of it didn't I?
Those are my views however, not something I would push on anyone or simply assume others also believe.
That doesn't mean I am not capable of arguing otherwise, even if it is against my own views.

[nerd4hire]

Thanks. So you'll no doubt like to re-answer Tranquility's question then. As a flat "no" was obviously not what you meant.

Let me try it first, OK.

I always thought Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers were straight canon?

Possibly they are, depending on your definition of straight canon. I myself think they are, or at least as straight as canon can be under the steadily fuzzier understanding of what canon is.

Some believe it is not. They believe Joss's authorization should be more clear than what one might imply from a connection to other canon works.

Others only accept the TV series as canon.

Feel free to "Utilize" that opinion "for your collecting" as well, people. ;)

Edit: Reply to Karma

Why doesn't that surprise me? :)

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'm pretty easy, myself: if Joss says something is canon, it is. Otherwise, it ain't.

[nerd4hire]

Come to think of it, here's another one I sometimes wonder about.

Did Joss ever specifically say Angel the Series was Buffyverse canon, or would it be like Fray, ToTS, and ToTV - canon by implication of connection of characters, and other story devices.

Because if he didn't say it specifically those who believe a spoken word by Joss is necessary to canonize something can cool the talk about the PTB watching over Buffy, or the slayer line, or making it snow in Amends.

[Superstar]

Why doesn't that surprise me?
Heh. I'm taking that response as amusement.

I think I would have made a good judge.
I may believe 110% that a defendant is guilty, but if the state fails to make its case the return verdict will be not-guilty.

There are many discussions where I propound things that I may not fully believe, but the defense still cannot make its case due to lack of evidence. I take nothing on assumption, faith or general consensus. I follow no mob rule mentality. I leave the witch-hunts to the zealous.

[nerd4hire]

Interesting, but as far as what makes something canon what am I to take from that?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Come to think of it, here's another one I sometimes wonder about.

Did Joss ever specifically say Angel the Series was Buffyverse canon, or would it be like Fray, ToTS, and ToTV - canon by implication of connection of characters, and other story devices.

Because if he didn't say it specifically those who believe a spoken word by Joss is necessary to canonize something can cool the talk about the PTB watching over Buffy, or the slayer line, or making it snow in Amends.

Hm. Good question. I don't know, and I guess partly that's because I never really got into AtS enough to watch it (up until the last season, and only sporadically then.)

[littlewilly]

I think its safe to assume Ats is definetly canon. The shows were tied up in each other, plus, its just obvious.

[nerd4hire]

I think its safe to assume Ats is definetly canon. The shows were tied up in each other, plus, its just obvious.

So you see the problem then right? If canon requires a specific authorization from Joss in order to be what we're now calling "straight canon", then Angel the Series may not apply. And that would just be silly. Therefore canon by implicit authorization would be reasonable. This should apply to TotS, and TotV.

On the other hand that might also apply to Spike After the Fall, so would that mean any spinoff from Angel After the Fall becomes canon? What about spinoffs of spinoffs?

If all it takes to be canon is Joss's personal participation to become canon, then Long Night's Journey is canon, and that means Angel was not the target of the Gypsy curse. If it is canon nobody takes it seriously, so what does that mean?