The Powers That Be

[Angel's Avenger]

Do you think TPTB bought Angel back from the hell dimension? It makes sense, they are powerful enough to do that and they had plans for Angel.

What do you think?

[white avenger]

I've always hoped that the story, or at least some mention of it and just what went on while Angel was there would be mentioned again. Angel, as far as I know, never asked, And on his show, Angel only mentioned once that he was there for a hundred tears. Nothing about how he survived oe managed to return.

I always thought that he was sent to a dimension of happy nudists who, after a century of his constant brooding, got fed up and sent him back where he came from.

Of course, there was always the remote chance that the Powers or some other very powerful force or being trained or conditioned Angel as a sleeper agent to accomplish some super secret mission Maybe something like fathering a child with another vampire so that he could set into motion a chain of events planned to initially bring about the destruction of Los Angeles by sending the city and its surrounding countryside to hell. The trigger to activate him on that mission would be an elevator trip to what he would be told was the home of the Senior Directors of a super evil law firm has branches all around the world in key locations where they can influence politics and business communities into doing their bidding. They could be planning to eventually bring about a major apocalypse/Ragnaroc event that would ultimately bring about the complete eradication of all magic and all agents for good on the planet, leaving it and all of its population unprotected and allowing an evil agency run by a secret military group devoted, eventually to world domination. (Hopefully, though, when the ultimate take over begins, the forces of good will be able to re-instate at least a small force, if only a single person, to stand against the renewed upsurge of supernatural evil that tries to take over the world.)

But those are just the ramblings of a tired world weary old man hopped up on prescription drugs with way too much idle time on his time and an over active imagination.

[andrewcutter]

personaly i always thought it was the powers that be who brought angel back. his destiny always seemed bigger than buffys or anyone else so i wouldent be surprised if it was tptb that brought him back instead of the first evil.

[nerd4hire]

Here's the bit from Amends that suggests The First Evil.

The First Evil (as Jenny): You can't live for eternity with all that pain. This is what you are. This is why WE brought you back.

[Keanoite]

Here's the bit from Amends that suggests The First Evil.

Is that the royal We or we as in The First Evil and say...Wolfram and Hart?

I would like to think it was the Powers who brought him back. His destiny was, according to Whistler, to help Buffy stop Acthala, to stop the apocolypse, not bring it forth. Once Acthala was done away with I get the impresion so to was the Power's interest in Angel. Especially with their comment in IWRY "What is done cannot be undone", to me that signals that it wasn't the PTB that brought him back but that they became interested in his path again once he was returned to earth.

My theory is that the First brought him back never expecting him to regain his sense of self after a century of torture in Hell. Like Giles said, it had never been recorded, someone recovering from that. I think that, like in Amends, the First saw Buffy as a possible danger and wanted her out of the equation and so Angel as a rabid beast would be perfect to do that.

[nerd4hire]

Another theory that pops up from time to time is the "we" The First mentions refers to a First/Jasmine alliance. There's lots of fanwanky support for that if you look for it. Would that qualify as Powers that be?

[angelchick182]

This is something, that after years and years of watching the shows, I haven't really made up my mind on. It may have been the PtB or it may have been The First. There have been several things, over the years, that I wish had been explained more - and this is one of them. On AtS, we hear of many(some really vague) references to the true reach of Wolfram & Hart - which is another topic that I think had a lot of history that could've been explored. Is the First exactly how it was explained to be in BtVS - or is there a deeper connection to some of the bigger of the Big Bads(Jasmine, W&H)?

Keanoite - I like your take on The First being responsible, thinking that no one could've returned from a hell dimension and then gone on to be a major player on the side of good.


*****SPOILER ALERT to anyone who's not seen Angel(for whatever reason) and doesn't want any details.*****


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Keanoite, you also bring up the events at the end of Season 2, which makes me wonder a little about The Shanshu Prophecy. One part is about the reward, after his journey of redemption and atonement is complete. The other part(which W&H bring up quite often) is about how Angel will play a pivotal role in the apocalypse, but on which side is unknown. Since, over the course of both shows, we've definitely seen more than one apocalypse - is there any way to say for certain that this prophecy may have been in reference to a past event - like, Buffy's battle with Acathla and Angel? The events of Angel and Acathla must have been foretold somehow, since Whistler knew this would be a major battle for Angel, and as it turned out - he didn't fight on the side anyone expected.

[Keanoite]

To be honest any theory we put out is going to be nothing more than a fanwank since the whole topic of Angel and his destiny is vague to say the least.

I think Angel was brought back to kill Buffy and possibily to carry on as an agent of the First, much like Caleb.

Angel's ability to regain his sense of self totally botched that plane and I think then his destiny started to rewrite itself in a way. Almost like in the film Final Destination, the same wat that death has a path and eventually catches up to you I think Angel's destiny was the same. It bent to the goings on in his life. That would explain why he was to be pivitol in the apocolyse but his intened side was unclear.

[WhiteHat]

I always thought that he was sent to a dimension of happy nudists who, after a century of his constant brooding, got fed up and sent him back where he came from.


ROTFLMAO!

You'd think that if the PTB's were so mighty they'd be able to teleport somebody WITH some clothes.
Looks like the PTB's are the same folks who teleported Schwarzenegger back to our time to get Sarah Connor. LOL

[Lindsey McDonald]

I like the idea that the "we" refered to are The First and the PTB collectively. Neither can intervene in such a grand way without the other - at least at this point before The First started breaking and taking advantage of shifting rules. This would mean that they both brought him back, hoping to mold him to their path. The First was just more direct. That's why the PTB sent the snow in Amends (whether it was them or not is for another thread). It fits in with the way that The First and the PTB are often refered to as being opposing forces of equal magnitude, balancing and all that.

[white avenger]

My theory is that the First brought him back never expecting him to regain his sense of self after a century of torture in Hell. Like Giles said, it had never been recorded, someone recovering from that. I think that, like in Amends, the First saw Buffy as a possible danger and wanted her out of the equation and so Angel as a rabid beast would be perfect to do that.

Or maybe the First just plain screwed up. It planned to have Buffy kill the (supposedly) insane and dangerous Angel believing that he would be the ensouled vampire who would be instrumental in stopping it from escaping the hellmouth. It would never have guessed that by the time of its planned escape there would be not just one, but two ensouled vampires, and up to almost the last minute, the Slayer hadn't chosen her Champion.

That would also explain why it tried so hard to drive Spike more insane than the acquisition of the soul had made him. If he became a real threat, Buffy would be forced to kill him.

But, as you say, that's only speculation unless Joss sees our ideas and is so impressed with them that he steals and uses them in his fiction. (Don;t laugh, at the Official Buffy Forum, we gave Spike a soul over a year before he ever decided to do it.)

[Keanoite]

Or maybe the First just plain screwed up. It planned to have Buffy kill the (supposedly) insane and dangerous Angel believing that he would be the ensouled vampire who would be instrumental in stopping it from escaping the hellmouth. It would never have guessed that by the time of its planned escape there would be not just one, but two ensouled vampires, and up to almost the last minute, the Slayer hadn't chosen her Champion.

That would also explain why it tried so hard to drive Spike more insane than the acquisition of the soul had made him. If he became a real threat, Buffy would be forced to kill him.

But, as you say, that's only speculation unless Joss sees our ideas and is so impressed with them that he steals and uses them in his fiction. (Don;t laugh, at the Official Buffy Forum, we gave Spike a soul over a year before he ever decided to do it.)

That doesn't pan out either because The First didn't have it's escape from the Hellmouth planned in season 3, or at least it couldn't have. The First's war on the SLayer only became possible due to Buffy's second resurrection. It created a tear in the slayer line and so allowed the First to attack.

[Buffanator]

Here's the bit from Amends that suggests The First Evil.


The First Evil (as Jenny): "You can't live for eternity with all that pain. This is what you are. This is why WE brought you back."

Yup - I always thought that, too, because of that specific line. So it really doesn't make any sense (to me) to think out a theory that TPTB brought Angel back.

[littlewilly]

Plus, TPTB were not invented yet when Angel was brought back.

[Blondie Bear]

^ True, but the writers could have retconned it. It wouldn't have been the first time.

[Fake Shemp]

if in doubt.....'THE POWERS THAT BE DID IT'

LOL

[nerd4hire]

^ True, but the writers could have retconned it. It wouldn't have been the first time.

On the other hand the PTB have never been specifically mentioned in Buffy's world, so why would the writers bother?

[WhiteHat]

Do you think TPTB bought Angel back from the hell dimension? It makes sense, they are powerful enough to do that and they had plans for Angel.

What do you think?


I never thought anything else. I took it for granted.

On the phrase itself, the producers were trying to sidestep the obvious problems of referencing RL religions, and the expression Powers That Be served nicely, IMHO.

Plus, using such a nebulous phrase creates more mystery, much like a Lovecraftian-type saying "That Which Shall Not Be Named." ;)