Spike as a Champion

[LifeIsJustThis]

I just finshed watching the third disc of Angel season 5, and Spike leaves to tell Buffy he's been resurrected. But then, he reconsiters, and desides he's rather she remember him dying to save the world, as a hero. I was really suprised by that. What do you all think of that? It seemed out of character for Spike. He always likes recognition for his actions...and doesn't he miss her terribly?

Maybe she finds out later, I don't know...
but what did you all think of that?

[Cangel]

Well, you say he likes recognition for his action. Imo at least he gets exactly that when he doesn't run off to Buffy, because that way he stays on her mind as the champion who sacrificed himself like that to save the world.

[LifeIsJustThis]

True. It just seems like he'd go right to her...

[Lindsey McDonald]

Yeah, they needed a reason to keep him on Angel, and the one they came up with was incredibly feeble. It does get more believable later on, but there is no way Spike wouldn't have returned to Buffy. He had just found the love he had been searching for for years, he even got a soul for her, and then he just abandons her? Pft....

[white avenger]

Yeah, they needed a reason to keep him on Angel, and the one they came up with was incredibly feeble. It does get more believable later on, but there is no way Spike wouldn't have returned to Buffy. He had just found the love he had been searching for for years, he even got a soul for her, and then he just abandons her? Pft....


Actually, when Spike popped up in his office all ghost-like, Angel, knowing immediately that if Buffy ever got word that Spike was back he could kiss even the most remote of chance of getting Buffy's cookies goodbye, secretly had some of the Wolfram & Hart shamen cook up an inhibition spell that would make Spike think that keeping Buffy ignorance of his return would be for the best. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.)

[Lindsey McDonald]

Actually, when Spike popped up in his office all ghost-like, Angel, knowing immediately that if Buffy ever got word that Spike was back he could kiss even the most remote of chance of getting Buffy's cookies goodbye, secretly had some of the Wolfram & Hart shamen cook up an inhibition spell that would make Spike think that keeping Buffy ignorance of his return would be for the best. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.)

Now that would have been interesting. Even has Angel getting corrupted by W&H's influence. Plus, we all know Angel is so respectful regarding other people's minds, memories and experiences!

[Keanoite]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Spike bottled it.

[white avenger]

Seriously, as much as I would have loved for Spike to return to Europe and Buffy for a joyous taerfilled reunion replete with kisses, declarations of true and undying love, and the greatest fade to black in the history of the Buffyverse, if Spike hadn't have been there to clean up Angel's mess, Season 5 of "Angel" would have been pathetic.


(That oughta jerk a knot in somebody's plow line)

[Keanoite]

And exactly which mess are you talking about? Cuz I don't recall him doing any cleaning at all in season 5. Actually all I seem to recall is him talking big about him and Buffy but when it came time to bite the bullet and actaully speak to the girl in question (pun intented;)) he turned chicken.

[white avenger]

I seem to recall Spike taking over Angel's job of "helping the helpless." Regardless of whether Lindsey had ulterior motives in the whole thing, Spike's actions were sincere. He might have been a bit sarcastic to some of the "helpless" that he helped, but, honestly, who would be stupid enough to wear high heeled shoes in a dark alley at night without knowing that she was bound to end up with a broken ankle if she was lucky and two tiny holes in her jugular if she wasn't? Spike fought the war while Angel sipped otter blood in his penthouse suite.

[Karrde]

It wasn't Buffy but her double in Italy and anyways, Spike's a wuss. :D
On the side note, he's a hell of a lot better off in Hell than any of the other guys, so it's better they didn't reunite. :)

[Keanoite]

I seem to recall Spike taking over Angel's job of "helping the helpless." Regardless of whether Lindsey had ulterior motives in the whole thing, Spike's actions were sincere. He might have been a bit sarcastic to some of the "helpless" that he helped, but, honestly, who would be stupid enough to wear high heeled shoes in a dark alley at night without knowing that she was bound to end up with a broken ankle if she was lucky and two tiny holes in her jugular if she wasn't? Spike fought the war while Angel sipped otter blood in his penthouse suite.

Spike fought the war? Wow, never knew that Crash Bandicoot was that much of threat!

[white avenger]

It wasn't Buffy but her double in Italy and anyways, Spike's a wuss. :D
On the side note, he's a hell of a lot better off in Hell than any of the other guys, so it's better they didn't reunite. :)

The only reason that Spike thought that Buffy was in Rome in the first place was that Angel told him that she was, and it was Angel who paid a private stalker to keep an eye on what he thought was her, so if Spike's a wuss, Angel's even wussier.

[Keanoite]

The only reason that Spike thought that Buffy was in Rome in the first place was that Angel told him that she was, and it was Angel who paid a private stalker to keep an eye on what he thought was her, so if Spike's a wuss, Angel's even wussier.

Not really since Buffy knew Angel was alive:) Spike is still the big fraidy cat here:D

[white avenger]

I will grant you that Spike should have tried to contact Buffy, but even if he did try, it would have been an exercise in futility because until Angel told him that the Immortal was supposedly eating Buffy's cookie dough, the closest Spike ever had as Buffy's location was "somewhere in Europe." (what's the area code for "somewhere in Europe?") Of course, Spike could have always called his good buddy Giles. He would have gladly given him the directions to Castle Slayer and Buffy. Sure he would!

Regardless of should he, shouldn't he, would he, or wouldn't he, Spike couldn't have gotten a message to Buffy if he had tried. He couldn't have even sent a message by Andrew, because he was obviously in Giles' hip pocket, not to mention his tailor shop.

Spike couldn't do what he wanted to, so he did what he had to do: stay in Los Angeles and make life miserable for Angel, because he knew that if Angel ever got too comfortable at Wolfram & Hart, soul or not, he was as lost as Angelus.

[Keanoite]

I will grant you that Spike should have tried to contact Buffy, but even if he did try, it would have been an exercise in futility because until Angel told him that the Immortal was supposedly eating Buffy's cookie dough, the closest Spike ever had as Buffy's location was "somewhere in Europe." (what's the area code for "somewhere in Europe?") Of course, Spike could have always called his good buddy Giles. He would have gladly given him the directions to Castle Slayer and Buffy. Sure he would!

Regardless of should he, shouldn't he, would he, or wouldn't he, Spike couldn't have gotten a message to Buffy if he had tried. He couldn't have even sent a message by Andrew, because he was obviously in Giles' hip pocket, not to mention his tailor shop.

Spike couldn't do what he wanted to, so he did what he had to do: stay in Los Angeles and make life miserable for Angel, because he knew that if Angel ever got too comfortable at Wolfram & Hart, soul or not, he was as lost as Angelus.


True points all but the thing is Spike knew NONE of this. So the fact still remains that Spike chickened out, from what he knew at the time Buffy was very much reachable and he didn't even try.

[Angel's vision]

Now that would have been interesting. Even has Angel getting corrupted by W&H's influence. Plus, we all know Angel is so respectful regarding other people's minds, memories and experiences!

Actually there was one episode where Angel was quite happy for Spike to get out of there, he really didn't want him around, W&H had Spike bound to it, it was the amulet mojo stuff or something.

[white avenger]

True points all but the thing is Spike knew NONE of this. So the fact still remains that Spike chickened out, from what he knew at the time Buffy was very much reachable and he didn't even try.

He did try. The first thing that Spike did after appearing in Angel's office was to try to go to Buffy. The amulet influence kept pulling him back to W&H. Bu the time he became solid again, he'd already seen what a mess Angel was making of things and knew that he had no choice but to bail Ol' Broody out before he fouled up again. I'm sure that once he fulfilled his duty as a Champion and got Angel straightened out, or at least staggering back down the road to redemption, Buffy would have been his highest priority. Until then, things were so bad in Los Angeles that he simply couldn't afford the distraction of Buffy hanging onto him every step he took. Thanks to Angel's little mess up, Spike had a world to save. Again.

[Karrde]

Yeah, but even after coming back from Hell (judging from the Spike:Asylum), he stuck around, my guess is because Angel didn't...

[Keanoite]

He did try. The first thing that Spike did after appearing in Angel's office was to try to go to Buffy. The amulet influence kept pulling him back to W&H. Bu the time he became solid again, he'd already seen what a mess Angel was making of things and knew that he had no choice but to bail Ol' Broody out before he fouled up again. I'm sure that once he fulfilled his duty as a Champion and got Angel straightened out, or at least staggering back down the road to redemption, Buffy would have been his highest priority. Until then, things were so bad in Los Angeles that he simply couldn't afford the distraction of Buffy hanging onto him every step he took. Thanks to Angel's little mess up, Spike had a world to save. Again.
.
I love how you still somehow manage to make Spike chickening out Angel's fault...it's funny really. Apart from his intial first attempt a leaving W&H Spike didn't exactly break his back trying to find the girl he claimed to love. It was much later when he decided that ANgel needed his help.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Actually there was one episode where Angel was quite happy for Spike to get out of there, he really didn't want him around, W&H had Spike bound to it, it was the amulet mojo stuff or something.

I was actually talking about after he was freed. He had the chance to go find Buffy, but didn't. There was a period of 4-5 episodes when he had no good reason for being in LA. It was just so inconsistant. By the end of Buffy Season 6 he travelled to the ends of the earth to get a soul for her, but now he was so obsessed with his image that he didn't even look for her? He actually thought she would prefer to remember him rather than be with him? It just didn't gel, not after everything they went through Season 7. Maybe this is just the Spuffy viewpoint talking, but come on... He even went searching for Drusilla after she left. I would have loved to have a scene where Giles denies him or something, but no. He just gave up. I just think it was bad writing.

[white avenger]

.
I love how you still somehow manage to make Spike chickening out Angel's fault...it's funny really. Apart from his intial first attempt a leaving W&H Spike didn't exactly break his back trying to find the girl he claimed to love. It was much later when he decided that ANgel needed his help.

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)

[littlewilly]

Why would Spike want to go see Buffy anyway? He may have loved her but he was too sensible to
realize that thay aint ever gonna be together again, what would be the point? Just so he could torture
himself by being around her even though nothing would have happened!

[Tranquillity]

I have always interpreted Spike staying in LA and not running off to Buffy not as fear, but as him wanting to prove to HIMSELF what he could do with his soul. He was always plagued by the idea that he only was good, only got the soul, was only a champion because of Buffy and that it was all just an attempt to 'get into her pants' (as crudely suggested by Angel in Destiny) and at the back of his mind he may have been wondering too. So by staying in LA he gets to see if he's sincere in his desire to fight on the side of good, see what he can do with himself, by himself. I find it very believable that he would stay in LA.

Side note: I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Spike has told Buffy that he is alive already. I can understand him temporarily exhiling himself away from her but, as he got more confident, after Andrew visited, after the sham with Lindsey was revealled, after Cordelia died - I'm almost certain that Spike would have gotten in contact with Buffy - well, that's my theory and i'm sticking to it:)

[Julian]

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)


Angel does end up in bad situations but I fail to see how he makes it worse. At the end of season 4, Angel had just stopped Jasmine, Cordelia was dead and the only way Connor could be saved was through a devil's pact with Wolfram and Hart. Please tell me how he made that worse or possibly get worse.

You seem to forget that Angel did not go to Wolfram and Hart because he wanted to. He went there for his son. He understood the consequences and he took that road anyway because of his love for his son. This act was done several times by other BTVS character including Spike, who turned his mother into a vamp. So if you are referring to Connor being the bad situation and Angel making it worse, go ahead. But remember that he isn't the only one who made a devil's pact out of love. You also have Giles, Buffy, Willow, Spike, Gunn, Connor, etc...

Now in Wolfram and Hart, he was in new territory. He tried to do good as it was shown in Conviction. He tried to hlp the girl in the alley (since that seems to be your argument about Spike "fixing" Angel's mistakes) but he soon found out that things have changed.

It was like the moment he got his soul or learned about the shanshu all over again. He was in foreign territory and learning to adjust to a new set of rules. Just like Spike when he was resurrected and when he got his soul.

Since he got his soul back, Angel struggled to figure out right and wrong on his own. This was a guy who had to build an entire system of belief from scratch and it happened all over again in season 5.

Spike had Buffy when he got his soul. He had someone who to help him through the rough spots. He also got someone else's purpose - Buffy's. When he came to LA, Spike needed "Doyle" to give him the motivation he needed and after that he turned to Angel. Up until the comics, Spike didn't have his own mission. He followed others.

Angel on the other kept struggling (and failing) to find one even despite his constant failings. e.g. We saw him rescuing a puppy in season 4 and we saw him attempt to rescue that girl back in the 60's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Spike has had it easy. He's always had it easy. IMO because the writers are scared of putting him in the same gray and moral situation as Angel.

When After the Fall first came out, I found a lot of Spike fans who were spitting blood over Spike hanging around with Spider in the Playboy mansion.

Angel has had to deal with a lot of things. Unlike Spike, his soul is his curse so he should be scared of his inner demon. He has a son who hates him. WR&H is constantly trying to screw him. And the list keeps going...

These are things which require hard gray decisions, something which Spike doesn't deal with very often because he doesn't have a system of beliefs other than his own emotions.

What do I mean? Angel apologised to Holtz after the guy stole his son, after he threatened to kill him. Spike threatened told Wood that he didn't give a piss about his mother.

YOu see where I'm going with this. Angel get's gray areas and lot's of them. He get's thrown into nasty situations. In contrast to Spike's case (after he got his soul), he'd rarely encountered the same deep moral dilemmas. And there's nothing wrong that IMO. Each one to his own, but don't start about what a great character Spike is because Angel get's the crap of the universe dumped on him.

Just to be clear, I don't like or dislike Spike. But when certain fans start bashing Riley, Xander, Giles or Angel just to inflate him, that's when I have to jump in.

[percepto girl]

Though Spike not telling Buffy that he's alive doesn't sit too well with me most of the time, I always thought there could be a number of reasons for this, one of them being his believing in the possibility of being Shanshued. If I remember correctly, it isn't until the very end of the season that both vampires find out that this won't happen for them...or something like that, I've only seen Ats s5 once. But up until then, he believes this is a possibility, and he mentions it a couple of times during the season. So, maybe part of the reason why he stayed and didn't say anything was because he hoped to return to Buffy as human.

[Keanoite]

And I love how you constantly defend Angel, no matter how predictably he turns a bad situation worse and then spending a week brooding over what happened. No wonder Spike volunteered to deny him three times.

And why is it cowardice when Spike decides to stay in LA because he knows that he will be needed there, but heroic when Angel runs away from Sunnydale and the woman he claims to love because he fears his inner beast? (Maybe Angel should have spent a summer in that cave like Spike did, and then we wouldn't be discussing it)

See that's the thing, Angel had a genuine concern with Angelus. He knew nothing about the curse, only that happiness caused him to lose it! He didn't know what the guidelines were on that, how much happiness constitutes as true? They were walking a tight rope being together he had no choice but to leave. And before you start on about him making choices for Buffy lets remember one thing, she had tried to leave him several times during the course of season 3 and just couldn't do it. He was forced to make the hard decision, just like Joyce and the Mayor told him he had to.

Spike on the other hand, his situation was safer than it ever had been in the time he knew Buffy and still nothing.

[white avenger]

Okay, Angel left Sunnydale because he realized that, as long as he was there, he would never feel completely safe from his metaphorical "evil twin brother," Angelus, around Buffy. He walked away, very dramatically, into a cloud of smoke after helping stop the latest apocalypse. (He also left so that he could get his own show that's beside the point). Spike left Sunnydale in a cloud of smoke (literally), also after helping stop the latest apocalypse. Ultimately, both men stayed away for the same reasons: they thought that they were doing the right thing for Buffy (and probably for themselves), and so that they could become better men away from the Slayer's influence. With her, they would never be anything more than side kicks. (And, no, Spike was NOT Angel's side kick in Season 5, he was a thorn in his side. Different thing entirely).

Every time Angel came back to Sunnydale, and every time Buffy went to Los Angeles, it ended badly for both of them. Maybe that was the real reason Spike stayed away, and he felt that it would be easier for both of them if she just didn't know that he was back. (When there was a real reason for him to go back, when she needed him, or so both he and Angel believed, he didn't hesitate, regardless of the consequences of what she would or wouldn't say or do to him.) Maybe he was just taking a page out of Angel's book, and making a decision affecting someone else's life without allowing them to have any input into the matter. Maybe he did just take the coward's way out and avoid the entire issue by just not taking any action. Maybe he was just tired of being so close to someone he knew would never love him as much as he loved her.

Yes, he should have called her, and yes, if he wasn't physically able to do the actual dialing himself, he probably could have asked someone else to do it for him, as painful a pill to swallow as that might have been for his "big bad" self image. Even if he could not have found her, since, as we now know, she was never where either he or Angel believed her to be, Spike should have had at least one scene in the entire season where he was shown as trying to call and explain his actions. I think that that would have, ultimately, been a greater exhibition of his final overcoming of self doubt, of becoming the man he wanted to be, and a greater personal triumph, than the poetry slam, not to mention a much more powerful scene. As far as that goes, I think that the fact that neither Spike nor Angel made any attempt to contact the woman they both claimed to love was a real missed opportunity on Joss' part ( a really great scene, to me, would have been, after the others had left the room for their last day, the two vampires had looked at each other silently and nodded, then the scene cut to the two of them leaving a recorded message on "Buffy's" answer machine in Rome. It would have been the perfect way to show that they had, at last, become true allies, if not friends)

Speculation on what could have been or should have been is, as someone else has said, pure "fan wank." Fun. One of my most fun things to do here, or anywhere else that I can get a decent conversation going about any subject that I feel strongly about.

(Incidentally, if the above seems somewhat more somber than my previous posts, it's just that I tend to be more serious before I've had my coffee in the mornings. Don't worry folks, I'll be just fine once the caffeine kicks in.)

[Angel's vision]

I think Spike wanted to be a hero in Buffy's eyes, so staying "dead" was his option, so she would remember him that way, and IMO that isn't a bad thing.

[Blondie Bear]

If you've ever had a really emotional good-bye, especially one that was going to be final, and then with one thing and another actually SAW the person again (and I don't mean years later, I mean before the plane/bus/train left), you'll understand how awkward it can be. I think Spike was trying to avoid that awkwardness as well.

[white avenger]

For those who might have thought yourselves safe in my absence, (and you know who you are) shake in your inexpensive but stylish boots. I'm back. Now, where were we when the time zones so rudely interrupted? Oh, yeah...

Spike was a coward because he didn't contact, or at least TRY to contact Buffy the moment his incorporeal feet metaphorically hit the floor in Angel's luxury office at Evil, Inc.

Okay, I think that I can safely say that, while Spike might not have been the brightest bulb in the string, one thing he most definitely was NOT is a coward. He proved that plenty of times over the years. So if fear wasn't the deciding factor in his procrastination, just what was? Okay, his secret is finally out. Spike has always been a closet Barry Manilow fan, and the only way that he can feed his habit without anyone knowing is to hang around in the elevators at Wolfram & Hart.

I have to agree though that there should have been a scene somewhere, sometime, showing Spike at least trying to call Buffy, even though he would have been unsuccessful given what we now know about her true location. Not calling was inconsistent with Spike's character. He WOULD have tried to call, and the whole "how can I just show up now after going out a hero and saving the world," was a total crock. It just wasn't Spike's style, and I blame the writers and Joss for it. If Spike was anything, it was impulsive. He showed that time and again, crashing in where a more cautious man would hesitate. It cost him his hands in "Damaged," and the man who would do that isn't gonna hesitate to make a simple phone call. Remember what he said to Buffy? "I make a lot of wrong bloody calls. I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly run in the direction of my brain." The man who said that wouldn't have sat in LA brooding about love lost and chances not taken. That was Angel's style.

[Superstar]

Sure, I'll play Devil's Advocate. Whynot? Might be fun.

The main question seems to be why didn't Spike contact Buffy.

So, let's take a look at the situation. Spike dies in a literal blaze of glory finally acknowledging that Buffy does not love him in the precise manner he originally intended when he began his quest for a soul - you can blame the new insight on the soul itself; pesky, stingy thing.
But... she does respect him now, which is something she really didn't do before and he knows it.

Flash forward to Wolfram & Hart (a place that Buffy, Giles and the rest are aware of apparently at this time) aka Evil Inc.
Spike is now a ghosty thing tied to W&H. Well, that's not good. Even worse is that Angel is CEO.
He dies fighting the good fight and is brought back by Evil Inc. which is now Angel's company.
Now that's pretty craptacular from his point of view on many levels. Was it the good fight after all?

So, does he call Buffy and say Hey! I'm back! And I'm stuck at Evil Inc. in ghosty form. Whatcha think about all that?
Oh, and since Angel is CEO of Evil Inc. and gave you the thing that helped you win and killed me, do you think maybe there was a nefarious plan to that? Maybe Giles can look into it if he's not planning on killing me again. Hugs and Kisses! Thanks luv. Bye.

Flash forward again to boxy thing in the mail from someone unknown, and obviously not from Buffy Inc. (cause he never told them) that mysteriously makes him corporeal again while making everyone else and the entire office a bit bloody looney literally. Wow, that can't be all good if it makes people bloody and crazy. But... corporeality! Hey! Harmony. Easy shag to celebrate with anyway cause they're all evil ponces.

Ok, should there be a call to Buffy now? Say Buffy, I was dead, then ghosty and tied to Evil Inc. Then a flashy-thing went off and now I'm not ghosty anymore. Oh and that champion thing? Maybe not so much. Sorry about that. Blame the gel-man. It's his fault. Did you know he was CEO of Evil Inc. when he gave that thing to you? I'm not sure if I'm out of hot water here yet or even what's going on exactly. Please come help me. Bring flowers, candy and a pony. Talk to you soon.

Flash forward to Shanshu-out-of-the-bag. WTF? Angel says it's BS but really he's interested in it? Oh really?
Well, if Buffy really doesn't love me, I'm sure not going to let her get Angel-breath again with his real breath!
Let's just take care of that little problem right now. Besides, if I can stick it to Angel then it's all good.
WTF? It's mountain dew? Well crap. Does that mean this Shanshag thing is real or not?

Should I call Buffy? Hey Buffy! Remember that Evil Inc. amulet you got? It killed me. I was dead, then ghosty, then not ghosty and all of it was Evil Inc.'s doing. Oh, and Angel is working on this thing that'll make him human. Won't that be nice?

Flash forward to Andrew. Oh crap! He's a watcher now? Well that's just bloody brilliant. Now Buffy will find out. Just great. Well at least I can show Buffy that I'm still the champion she thought I was and that Angel used to be, 'cept I'm not all moody and deluded like he is. Demented slayer... no problem. Little geek is following me. Well, now that we're away from Angel I can ask about Buffy... and nope, no one told her I'm alive, that means if Angel is talking to her he ain't sayin all he should. Good for me. If he ain't talking to her, then good for me. Ok, I'll tell her when I'm ready then long as the ringlord here keeps his trap shut.

[white avenger]

Spike was supposed to be on "Angel" for the entire season, so they couldn't have him call Buffy or leave for Europe in search of her in the third or fourth episode. They came up with the idea that he didn't think that she would welcome him back after such a spectacular exit and stood by it for the entire season, but "the dangerous Spike, the Spike that tried to kill (Buffy) when they first met" simply wouldn't have stayed with Angel, who he hated, rather than try to find the girl who he had endured all of that torture for. Especially after she finally said the three words that he had been longing to hear for three years.

He served as a perfect foil to Angel, making his life miserable at chance that presented itself and even making a few up, "I'm listening. With beer." and no doubt he enjoyed the he** out of every minute of it, but he had shared too much with Buffy to ever just give up. No way.

[littlewilly]

If spike believed even for a split second that he and Buffy could be together, im VERY sure he would have went to Europe to be with her.
And, Not calling wasnt inconsistant with spikes character. despite what people say, Spike may not have been book smart, but he did have common sense and was good at understanding people. NO ONE in this thread yet, has given one good reason for Spike to call Buffy(and simply 'loving' her is not a good enough reason on its own)

Ring Ring.
Buffy: Hello!
Spike: Hey Buffy, its me....
Buffy: Oh my god, spike, what... how.... huh?
Spike: Well the thing is Buffy(he then explains what happened)
Buffy: Oh Spike, im sooooooooo happy. Seeing as im still in love with you, why dont you come to Scotland and we can live happily ever after!

I dont think so.

[Superstar]

Spike was supposed to be on "Angel" for the entire season
Well of course that's the realistic answer.
That, and SMG was done with Buffy. So not much hope there of resolving either of the vamp romantic dilemmas on Angel.
Besides, it would be interesting plot-wise for Angel and Spike to first dislike each other, then compete and finally form a reluctant friendship.

Everyone's usually looking for the "in-universe" answer to things, not reality.

[white avenger]

If spike believed even for a split second that he and Buffy could be together, im VERY sure he would have went to Europe to be with her.
And, Not calling wasnt inconsistant with spikes character. despite what people say, Spike may not have been book smart, but he did have common sense and was good at understanding people. NO ONE in this thread yet, has given one good reason for Spike to call Buffy(and simply 'loving' her is not a good enough reason on its own)

Ring Ring.
Buffy: Hello!
Spike: Hey Buffy, its me....
Buffy: Oh my god, spike, what... how.... huh?
Spike: Well the thing is Buffy(he then explains what happened)
Buffy: Oh Spike, im sooooooooo happy. Seeing as im still in love with you, why dont you come to Scotland and we can live happily ever after!

I dont think so.



Say whatever you want to say about Spike, he never left his women, they left him (even Harmony). And when they DID leave him, Darla, at least, because as far as we know he was with her for his entire time as a vampire until he got his chip. The man who unhesitatingly described himself as "love's bitch" would never leave Buffy willingly, and if he were forced to,(let's say, for instance by burning to ashes to save the world) he would relocate heaven, hell, AND half of Europe to rejoin her.

(And certainly, Angel left because he wanted her to have a normal life, but at least part of that normalcy was having a boyfriend who wouldn't turn into a monster and try to destroy the world every time she, as Xander so eloquently put it, "gave him a happy." It wasn't necessarily a HUMAN love interest that he wanted for her. Remember his only comment after meeting Riley? (and after trying to turn him into a puddle although he couldn't have tried very hard. Riley was good for a human, but not THAT good. Angel HAD to be holding back) "I don't like him." Not "I'm so happy for you, Buffy. Finally, you can work on your tan again."

Angelus was a part of Angel, and only a suppressed part, never a completely controlled one. Even WITH a soul, the evil, more ruthless side of his personality was barely under the surface, ready to come out any time Angel really lost his temper. Angel feared him, and he feared what he was capable of, especially to Buffy and her friends. If it weren't for that, he never would have left Sunnydale.

[littlewilly]

I dont think Angelus was the big factor there though, i mean, he did, and could again have turned into Angelus when in LA, around Wes and Cordy and the others, but he didnt seem to worry about it that much. imo, it was definetly the 'cant get married, have kids, walk in the daylight' aspect rather than the Angelus one. But i agree with the Reilly thing. Angel was definetly holding back, i think he just wanted to slap Buffys new boyfriend around a bit.

Edit:

I just want to add to that. If Angel in s3 wasnt cursed(just ensouled) Joyce would still have had *that* talk with him, and i still say he would realized it was the right thing to do and just left. Pretty much the same reason spike didnt call bBuffy.

[white avenger]

I dont think Angelus was the big factor there though, i mean, he did, and could again have turned into Angelus when in LA, around Wes and Cordy and the others, but he didnt seem to worry about it that much. imo, it was definetly the 'cant get married, have kids, walk in the daylight' aspect rather than the Angelus one. But i agree with the Reilly thing. Angel was definetly holding back, i think he just wanted to slap Buffys new boyfriend around a bit.


Despite his stated vows of wanting Buffy to have a normal life and a normal relationship, his fear of Angelus and what he was capable of was definitely a factor in Angel's leaving. His plan once he got to Los Angeles was to keep to himself, not to form any kind of relationships (like in "Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been"). Doyle, Cordy, and to a lesser extent Wes, Gunn, and Fred came to him, and pretty much had to force themselves on him.

Angel's original plan was to sit alone in his basement apartment, only going out for pig's blood, probably drawing pencil sketches of Buffy and brooding about the cruelty of his fate. The "Help The Helpless" thing wasn't in his original plans.

[Superstar]

The "Help The Helpless" thing wasn't in his original plans
Eh. I'll have to disagree a bit here. Only because he was dusting vamps before he met Doyle.
I don't see Angel as going out to a bar "for fun" and accidentally recognizing some vamps and deciding to dust them.
Agreed, it may have been an exceptional thing, but the going out to a bar just doesn't fit in with broody-moody Angel.

Now, after Doyle things got a bit more focused with a direct link to someone in need of help from a "valued" client of W&H in the first "vision" and Angel is now on W&H radar. After that, the "help the helpless" angle he was employing slowly took a nose-dive as the obsession increased on both sides - Angel and W&H.

[Keanoite]

Everyone's usually looking for the "in-universe" answer to things, not reality.


I'm not getting smart here hun but why would we look for answers other than the "in-universe" ones? Reality has nothing to do with it. All we can do, having watched the show and enjoying the characters, is use what Joss and the writers gave us. If we look for the "real" answers so to speak well then it would be the Buffyverse at all.

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike. Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her. I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward (disagree all you want WA but in that decision he was cowardly). I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.

[littlewilly]

Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. .

Um, No.

Also, Spikes decision not to call wasnt cowardly. Just sensible. Didnt you notice, he seemed to get less pathetic when he came to terms with his soul.
If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

[Tranquillity]

I also think that Spike stayed in LA because of Angel. I don't think that Spike hates Angel as much as he makes out. I think he actually idolises Angel just as he did when they were bad old vampires together. I think Spike looks at Angel as a kind of mentor - who better to help him ajust to life without Buffy and a shiney new soul than his old pal Angel who has practical experience in these departments. The snark between them is largely rooted in the fact that Angel rejects Spike and so Spike's reaction is to be snarky and annoying which makes Angel dislike him even more. It's like a whole vicious cycle thing. But the funny thing is that Angel doesn't actually hate Spike at all. There's a lot of love there under all the fighting, competativness and rivalry (not in a slashy kind of way either).

[Keanoite]

Um, No.

Also, Spikes decision not to call wasnt cowardly. Just sensible. Didnt you notice, he seemed to get less pathetic when he came to terms with his soul.
If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

Um..no? you might want to expand on that...it's not much of an arguement.

Well maybe just letting her know he was alive would be something., regardless if anything else came out of it, he owed her that much at least.

[Tranquillity]

leethehost said:
If he called Buffy, What, exactly, would he have said or what would he have hoped happened?

How about just say hello, I'm alive (and maybe expand on that particular story a little bit, it's quite a good story). And then that he was staying in LA for his own reasons (and then maybe tell her a little about those). It has the makings of a nice phone conversation - it's not like they have nothing to talk about or that contacting Buffy would have he would have neccessarily went running off after her once again...

[littlewilly]

when in s5 angel told Spike to go away, (i dont remember exactly) but did Spike not have a boat ticket, Europe bound(possibly to see Buffy) but he decided not to at the last minute? He probably just though 'wait a minute, what am i doing here, this is the wrong decision'. He had a moment of clarity, so he returned to angel, who i agree, he really loves, despite his act.

[white avenger]

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike. Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her. I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward (disagree all you want WA but in that decision he was cowardly). I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.


Read posts 31 and 33 above, Miss K, we're in almost total agreement (feel the earth shake!) except for the cowardly part. Well, actually that to. Our difference there is that the Spike that we have watched evolve from Seasons 2 through 7 of "Buffy" simply COULD NOT commit the admittedly act of cowardice that was depicted in "Angel" Season 5. Right, wrong, or indifferent, Spike WOULD have found Buffy, if it took the rest of eternity. It simply wasn't in his nature not to. Women left Spike, he never left them. But there were only two viable reasons that would have remained with Angel.

1) He called Buffy and she rejected him. Bad idea, because Joss simply DID NOT want to give official closure to the Buffy/Spike/Angel thing, it stirred up too much interest (like right here) and would keep the fans coming back for more.

2) For some reason Spike chose not to call or otherwise contact Buffy. Also a bad idea, because it was completely out of character for Spike. Angel, maybe. Spike, never.

Okay, three reasons

3) Some time in those 19 days between the closing of the hellmouth and Spike's appearance at W&H, something fatal had happened to Buffy, leaving Spike heartbroken and probably slipping back into insanity. That just ain't gonna happen! No further explanation necessary.

What was chosen was the easiest, in fact the only one that they could have chosen, simple because it kept everything else in the Buffyverse basically intact. The only glaring inconsistency was that it went totally against Spike's character. We can joke about whether he stayed in LA in order to bail out Angel, or to torture him, or maybe even that he fell in love with Fred at first sight, but the fact remains that, yes, the act was cowardly, but it was an act that was totally and completely against Spike's nature as it has been developed for the previous 5 years. He could no more stay away from Buffy than he could morph into a bat like Dracula. Either the writers screwed his character up, or the wrong Spike came back. Either way, Spike, the REAL Spike is most definitely NOT a coward.

[Superstar]

The reasons you gave in your other post make sense to you and me if I am being honest as to why someone would not call Buffy but they do not make sense when applied to Spike.
Well thanks for that! I even tried to make them amusing. As for Spike...

Every single thing we had seen of him do up to that point totally contradicted his choice to not contact her. Spike doesn't think like that, he just acts. He is "love's bitch" afterall, he doesn't care how pathetic he comes off ( and he really does come off pathetic at times), he would have moved mountains to see her.
Hmmmm. I think pre-soul Spike, sure. Slave to passion. Screw what others thought. Pathetic? Sure, Buffy doesn't have a whole lot of respect for that.

Afterward, not so much. In fact, he tended to shy away from contact - granted he was kinda loopy at the time and admits freely that he didn't want her to see him that way. He even *gasp* seemed to think things through a bit more after being not-so-loopy. Actually he was too shy and Buffy calls him on it big-time - dude just can't win with her. So, he goes to get his coat and becomes something a bit more like he was, but with more rational thinking. He still needed to get his mojo back and enjoy the fight and the kill instead of just doing it out of loyalty to Buffy and the good fight. Balance Daniel-san. Balance.

I don't doubt that or a second but instead the writers decided to turn him into coward.. I know why they couldn't have had him go after her but they gave a God awful reason.
Well, since you did agree that the reasons were somewhat "sensible", it *was* really more a matter of circumstances.
Pre-soul Spike, yep, all done to impress the lady. There would have been no hesitation or embarrassment.
Impressing the lady, not so much in season 7. I can't think of much of anything he did outright in order to "impress".
Afterward (post-ghosty), I think he just tried to do the right thing even if he didn't know a whole lot about what that meant without Buffy as his guide - and something that needed to be fixed unless he wanted to be just a Buffy groupie instead of an equal. It wasn't until "Doyle" that he had some sort of focus - plus pissing in Angel's wheatabix was a breakfast he would love to serve the old sire.

Shortly after Andrew was the whole Fred/Illyria thing to complicate matters even more. If you think the Cavemen vs Astronauts was anything but a reflection of their views (Spike more instinct / Angel more reason) with a Buffy subtext then....
And in the end Angel and Spike came to something of an understanding between themselves - an agreement to disagree; or in other words a middle ground to the Cavemen vs Astronauts argument where both views had to change and meet in the middle. All in time for the "last good fight".

Except...

I think "coward" is too strong of a word. If "coward" is used on anyone it would be Angel, but even then perhaps too strong of a word.

[littlewilly]

I really dont agree this was 'out of character', thats just personal opinion.
Imagine, SD didnt get destroyed when the Hellmouth did, and Spike appeared in SD instead of LA, then i think
more than likely he'd have went straight to Buffy.
But the way it worked out, being a ghost, having months away from Buffy, even shagging Harmony, id say this
stuff put Spikes situation in perspective. Gave him time to realize going to see Buffy was maybe the wrong choice, but
this isnt out of character, or contradicting everything Spike done on Btvs.
I think if it was me, id have done what Spike done. Other people may not have, but it does not make it cowardly.

[Keanoite]

Hmmmm. I think pre-soul Spike, sure. Slave to passion. Screw what others thought. Pathetic? Sure, Buffy doesn't have a whole lot of respect for that.

Afterward, not so much. In fact, he tended to shy away from contact - granted he was kinda loopy at the time and admits freely that he didn't want her to see him that way. He even *gasp* seemed to think things through a bit more after being not-so-loopy. Actually he was too shy and Buffy calls him on it big-time - dude just can't win with her. So, he goes to get his coat and becomes something a bit more like he was, but with more rational thinking. He still needed to get his mojo back and enjoy the fight and the kill instead of just doing it out of loyalty to Buffy and the good fight. Balance Daniel-san. Balance.

First off kudos for the Karate Kid quote. Much respect:D and ok I will admit that Spike was less likely to act on instinct in season 7 than previously but like you said that was really only until he was free of The First afterwards he, as you said, got his mojo back.

Well, since you did agree that the reasons were somewhat "sensible", it *was* really more a matter of circumstances.
Pre-soul Spike, yep, all done to impress the lady. There would have been no hesitation or embarrassment.
Impressing the lady, not so much in season 7. I can't think of much of anything he did outright in order to "impress".
Afterward (post-ghosty), I think he just tried to do the right thing even if he didn't know a whole lot about what that meant without Buffy as his guide - and something that needed to be fixed unless he wanted to be just a Buffy groupie instead of an equal. It wasn't until "Doyle" that he had some sort of focus - plus pissing in Angel's wheatabix was a breakfast he would love to serve the old sire.

Shortly after Andrew was the whole Fred/Illyria thing to complicate matters even more. If you think the Cavemen vs Astronauts was anything but a reflection of their views (Spike more instinct / Angel more reason) with a Buffy subtext then....
And in the end Angel and Spike came to something of an understanding between themselves - an agreement to disagree; or in other words a middle ground to the Cavemen vs Astronauts argument where both views had to change and meet in the middle. All in time for the "last good fight".

Except...

I think "coward" is too strong of a word. If "coward" is used on anyone it would be Angel, but even then perhaps too strong of a word.

Ok I pretty much agree on all the above points (except the coward one but I'll get to that in a minute). If we go with the point that Spike was more inclined to think things out first instead of just reacting then I still think he reacted badly.

At the end of season 7 I think Spike was very much Buffy's best friend. He knew her better than Willow and Xander at that stage in my opinion. So, how could he not think that Buffy wouldn't want to know he was alive? I just do not by that at all. Regardless of whatever macho reasons he throws out he must have known that Buffy would be happy to know he was alive.

As for the coward thing...well I still stand by it. In that moment I think he completely bottled it. Spike NEVER believed in doing things for Buffy's own good and protecting her. Yes, he got the soul but that was to make him worthy of her not protect. That was never his thought process, so why is he thinking that way now? Surely it can't be Angel's influence.

Angel, on the other hand, genuinely believes he is doing what is right. It's just the way he is and he has always been that way. He doesn't do it out of fear he does it because he beleives it's the right thing to do aand because he's a martyr.

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.

[white avenger]

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.

I can fully agree that not calling, or at least TRYING, to call Buffy was a cowardly action, I simply contend that Spike has never, in all of the time that he has been on either show, would never, COULD never commit such a cowardly act. Impulsive, certainly. Stupid, quite possibly. But never cowardly. The closest that he was ever portrayed to showing fear in any way was a single step back from the ledge in the ubervamp cavern, and that was completely understandable.

If we have to rule out the simple fact that the writers made a mistake portraying Spike in such a fashion, e have to assume that there was some other, outside, reason for his actions The amulet has been fairly well accepted as being intended for Angel, not Spike, to wear. Maybe Spike's inability to call Buffy was part of its influence, intended to keep Angel from calling his most powerful ally for assistance. In any case, I believe that the only thing that would have kept Spike from calling immediately, if only to assure himself that she was alright, would be some kind of outside influence. Call that a compromise if you want to, gloat if that's your inclination, but that's as close as I can come to calling Spike a coward under any circumstances.

[Keanoite]

I can fully agree that not calling, or at least TRYING, to call Buffy was a cowardly action, I simply contend that Spike has never, in all of the time that he has been on either show, would never, COULD never commit such a cowardly act. Impulsive, certainly. Stupid, quite possibly. But never cowardly. The closest that he was ever portrayed to showing fear in any way was a single step back from the ledge in the ubervamp cavern, and that was completely understandable.

If we have to rule out the simple fact that the writers made a mistake portraying Spike in such a fashion, e have to assume that there was some other, outside, reason for his actions The amulet has been fairly well accepted as being intended for Angel, not Spike, to wear. Maybe Spike's inability to call Buffy was part of its influence, intended to keep Angel from calling his most powerful ally for assistance. In any case, I believe that the only thing that would have kept Spike from calling immediately, if only to assure himself that she was alright, would be some kind of outside influence. Call that a compromise if you want to, gloat if that's your inclination, but that's as close as I can come to calling Spike a coward under any circumstances.

Gloat? Me? Never...;)

Maybe Superstar has a point, maybe coward is too strong a label to stick to Spike but his actions or inaction to be more precise was cowardly. I may have a pair of Angel tinted glasses but they have nothing to do with what I think of Spike on this topic. Angel doesn't even come into it.

[Superstar]

Yes, he got the soul but that was to make him worthy of her not protect. That was never his thought process, so why is he thinking that way now?
Who said "protect"?
I said "not groupie" and "equal".
The soul itself isn't enough to Buffy.

Angel, on the other hand, genuinely believes he is doing what is right.
Actually, throughout season 5 Angel slowly comes to the conclusion that maybe his choice to take on the CEOship was a big oopsie after all. The rest of ex-Angel Inc. try to reassure him that no, it was a good call. He doesn't believe them and gets moodier and moodier about it.

That's why I think Spike's reason for not seeing Buffy is cowardly because it just doesn't reflect who he had been for seven seasons.
You mean for six seasons. Different dude in season 7.
Angel season 5 Spike is farther along the path to his middle-ground.
The funny thing is... Spike learns from Angel and the presence of Spike teaches Angel a few new steps.
Two extremes that begin to blend into something better than either were apart.

Angel, who knew Spike was not the sharpest tool in the box comes to realize that he's a bit different now and it irritates him to no end to have SPIKE of all people inform him "dude, WTF are you doing? If a certain Slayer could see you now..."
And then to have Cordy come in and verify what SPIKE! has been saying and what he's already been having doubts about by showing him up close and personal... well that was enough to send Angel on his path of extreme corrective measures. Admit to Spike that he was right... not Angel's style. Best to just get him out and away from his mess and let him take over the "helping the helpless" role both now have abandoned. But, he did soften on him a bit at the end and recognized that there must be something there if Buffy saw it - irksome as that thought is to him.

Both united immediately in two instances without argument; Fred dying and Buffy with the Immortal (you gotta be kidding me! Him?).
The hole in the world gave both some perspective as well. There are deeper things and meanings in the world.

[white avenger]

Gloat? Me? Never...;)



Yeah, and that dance you're doin' right now now is just a traditional Irish jig, right?

Just be forewarned, little lady, that he who gloats last has to wash the dishes.

Or is it, the last one to the dinner table gloats longest.

It's something like that, anyhow.

Just be on the lookout for it, whatever it is. Not that you'll see it coming till the cows come home.

What were we talking about again...?

[Keanoite]

Who said "protect"?
I said "not groupie" and "equal".
The soul itself isn't enough to Buffy.

I was anticipating you bring up him getting the soul for Buffy. Sorry about that, I have been having this discussion for years, sometimes I get ahead of myself!

Actually, throughout season 5 Angel slowly comes to the conclusion that maybe his choice to take on the CEOship was a big oopsie after all. The rest of ex-Angel Inc. try to reassure him that no, it was a good call. He doesn't believe them and gets moodier and moodier about it.

I was talking about the entire series of Angel (and parts of Buffy too I suppose) not just his decision to take on W&H. One regretful decision doesn't change that.


You mean for six seasons. Different dude in season 7.

No I meant seven seasons. True he was different after the soul (as should he be) but I still think once he was rid of The First he came back to his old self, as much as he could. Look at how he reacts to the Scoobies when they flung Bffy out of house and home? He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right (which they weren't) he goes to help Buffy, no matter what that meant for the war against the The First and had the best night of his life as a result.

[white avenger]

. Look at how he reacts to the Scoobies when they flung Bffy out of house and home? He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right (which they weren't) he goes to help Buffy, no matter what that meant for the war against the The First and had the best night of his life as a result.


Whether you're a Spuffy, Fuffy, Bangel, Cangel, or any of the other "uffies" or "ngles," that was undoubtedly the second best Spike scene in the entire series, toped only by his "you're the one, Buffy" scene. Plus he got to tear into Faith.

Edit:

"I don't know about one of his best scenes but he definitely reacted the right way"?

That was the first time Spike got to be a hero, a real Champion, without being tortured or recovering from being tortured. He finally got to cuss out (figuratively, anyhow, it's still a family show) Giles, Xander, and Willow. The biggest thorns in his side through the entire series. Well, not Willow as much, but still, he got to stand up to all of them, to rip into them for betraying the person that they literally owed their lives to a dozen times over. The people who chose Faith over Buffy at what turned out to be the prelude to one of the most critical moments in the greatest apocalypse that they had ever faced. In that one moment he began to finally justify all of the faith and trust that Buffy felt for him, and you don't know whether it was one of his best scenes or not?

I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinion...

Did I mention that he gets to tear into Faith?


(Somehow, two posts got combined, which might cause some confusion. Sorry about that. The Powers That Be The Buffy Boards did it, not me)

[Superstar]

I was talking about the entire series of Angel (and parts of Buffy too I suppose) not just his decision to take on W&H. One regretful decision doesn't change that.
Well that part is also up for debate I should think.
Season 1 - Sure he thinks he's doing the right thing.
Season 2 - Starts off that way and then the Darla obsession comes in. Right/Wrong not a part of that equation.
Season 3 - Ok, back to doing the right thing, except he's not calling the shots anymore - Begin Connor drama.
Season 4 - Whole helping the helpless thing goes to the wayside due to the full blown Connor drama.
Season 5 - Helping the helpless thing... wow that isn't working out as well as he envisioned.

He reacts, he doesn't think about what the effect his actions would have on the fight, he doesn't care if the Scoobies were right [or not]
You're right, he doesn't care what the scoobies think.
He comes back from a mission Giles sent him on to discover that they've outed Buffy and betrayed her.
Considering the previous action of Giles, Robin and the attitudes of the potentials, not a big surprise.
He mentions that the little speech was prepped for him as if that will sway everything.
He does everything but call them stupid gits because he learned Buffy was right about her objective while on his mission.
He also knows they aren't going to listen to him. Faith calls him "whipped". FIGHT! FIGHT!
He goes to find her to convince her to go back and take control again.
This IS for the good of the war.

[Kana]

Yeah, I'd agree that cowardice is perhaps too strong a term. Humanly insecure (if I were to legitimize what the writers are possibly trying to convey) maybe is a better way of putting it. I think with all his bravado. I suppose one could complain about consistency but we are a product of her experiences and yes Spike is a different person with a soul and with that soul (and more importantly experiences) not mattering to Buffy means more, and is more painful. Getting tactile proof of that is much more frightening than facing demon trials for example. I definitely agree Spike was more reflective in Season 5 but he doesn't lose his ability to connect which has always been stronger than Angel. He sees Harmony's pain while Angel doesn't and although he may seem more 'coawrdly' , this new perspective gives him the ability to connect, maybe even respect(?) Harmony at least a little because now he's connected a little more with himself. If he ever did decide to see Buffy it would be for the right reasons and it would begin with him respecting himself more and believing he is deserving of love and respect. If he's not quite there yet then maybe he isn't ready to see her and that's fine, it's ok to be a little about yourself if that means that in the long run, you'll both respect each other and yourselves as equals in the relationship, which is something I don't believe Spike truly ever had with Buffy or with anyone?

[RockManic]

I've said before around here that one of the reasons that Spike is my favourite Whedon show character is because I get him. From day one of him arriving in Sunnydale he reminded me of me, with the obvious exception of the slaughtering of innocent people he used to enjoy. I try not to do that. ;)

With that in mind though, I totally understood his reasoning to stay in LA. He knew that Buffy didn't love him, at least not enough. Hell, he even admitted that to her at the end of Chosen. The one thing he knew he could be to her was a champion who sacrificed himself to save the world and running back to her again once he was able would have taken even that away. He truly believed that she would never really love him and made the choice to let her go. Not that he would ever admit that to Angel, naturally.

So it wasn't so much a cowardly decision as it was one of acceptance. The time he spent bound to Wolfram and Hart gave him the chance to come to terms with what he meant to Buffy and so when he was finally able to go to her, he realised it was for the best not to do so. At least not immediately, anyway.

I've always believed that becoming a champion and staying on in LA to fight the good fight was Spike subconsciously wanting to prepare himself for the day that he crossed paths with Buffy again. That way his champion status would have been proven by a lot more than simply letting himself burn in the Hellmouth and that he would be more worthy of her in his own mind. Maybe that will be covered in an eventual story in the comics.

[LifeIsJustThis]

I seem to recall Spike taking over Angel's job of "helping the helpless." Regardless of whether Lindsey had ulterior motives in the whole thing, Spike's actions were sincere. He might have been a bit sarcastic to some of the "helpless" that he helped, but, honestly, who would be stupid enough to wear high heeled shoes in a dark alley at night without knowing that she was bound to end up with a broken ankle if she was lucky and two tiny holes in her jugular if she wasn't? Spike fought the war while Angel sipped otter blood in his penthouse suite.
Amen. That's all I'm saying. :)

Edit:

I really dont agree this was 'out of character', thats just personal opinion.
Imagine, SD didnt get destroyed when the Hellmouth did, and Spike appeared in SD instead of LA, then i think
more than likely he'd have went straight to Buffy.
But the way it worked out, being a ghost, having months away from Buffy, even shagging Harmony, id say this
stuff put Spikes situation in perspective. Gave him time to realize going to see Buffy was maybe the wrong choice, but
this isnt out of character, or contradicting everything Spike done on Btvs.
I think if it was me, id have done what Spike done. Other people may not have, but it does not make it cowardly.
I agree with the 'out of character' thing. In reality, there were different writers for his character on Angel then there were for his character on Buffy.
In all truth, the real Spike would absolutely let Buffy know he was alive. Spike has pride, but not that much.
But of course, they had to keep him on the show, so they had to give him an excuse to stay.

[paisley]

She loved him because of his actions and in a way because of his death. It was the only pure and truly noble thing he did. He was alive for all those years and finally he had come to an end. And the end of his life (or death) couldnt have been more perfect. A true champion

[Buffanator]

You know, I've considered this a 1000 times. The only thing that WOULD have made sense (to me) is that Spike WOULD HAVE tried to see/get to Buffy, but upon doing so, learned that she was with "The Immortal" - & then that whole episode of Spike & Angel trying to "rescue" her from The Immortal could have happened... but it was too far in the season, & the show had already been cancelled.... YET STILL...

I'm not as freaked over the fact that our Spike didn't even TRY to contact Buffy as I am at the fact that upon gaining his corporealness, he immediately went to have sex with HARMONY. I mean..... COME ON. That "non-relationship" was soooo done; I really don't think Spike would have thought twice about Harmony, after his relationship with Buffy went the way it did. But of course, that "sex thing" was kind of classic Spike... the bad boy Spike, just a wee little bit... even if it was w/Harmony.

In BuffanatorVerse, Spike would have gone to see Buffy, and they would have done the jiggity-bump, and Buffy would have explained to Spike her fear of Angel going "to the dark side" & Spike would have come back to LA in order to help Angel, because he knew it meant so much to Buffy.

But WhedonVerse somehow won out... :rolleyes:

[Lindsey McDonald]

You know, I've considered this a 1000 times. The only thing that WOULD have made sense (to me) is that Spike WOULD HAVE tried to see/get to Buffy, but upon doing so, learned that she was with "The Immortal" - & then that whole episode of Spike & Angel trying to "rescue" her from The Immortal could have happened... but it was too far in the season, & the show had already been cancelled.... YET STILL...

I'm not as freaked over the fact that our Spike didn't even TRY to contact Buffy as I am at the fact that upon gaining his corporealness, he immediately went to have sex with HARMONY. I mean..... COME ON. That "non-relationship" was soooo done; I really don't think Spike would have thought twice about Harmony, after his relationship with Buffy went the way it did. But of course, that "sex thing" was kind of classic Spike... the bad boy Spike, just a wee little bit... even if it was w/Harmony.

In BuffanatorVerse, Spike would have gone to see Buffy, and they would have done the jiggity-bump, and Buffy would have explained to Spike her fear of Angel going "to the dark side" & Spike would have come back to LA in order to help Angel, because he knew it meant so much to Buffy.

But WhedonVerse somehow won out... :rolleyes:

I would have liked that. More tension between Angel and Spike, and no Immortal!

[white avenger]

I'm not as freaked over the fact that our Spike didn't even TRY to contact Buffy as I am at the fact that upon gaining his corporealness, he immediately went to have sex with HARMONY. I mean..... COME ON. That "non-relationship" was soooo done; I really don't think Spike would have thought twice about Harmony, after his relationship with Buffy went the way it did. But of course, that "sex thing" was kind of classic Spike... the bad boy Spike, just a wee little bit... even if it was w/Harmony.

:


Just think about it. If your car stops running, and you have to have it repaired, what's the first thing you do after the repairs have been made? Check to make sure it runs right. That's just what Spike was doing. making sure that his motor still ran.

[Wolframandheart]

Spike is a champion, but Angel is the champion :p