Buffy Betraying Angel

[Nikkolas]

I realize there's a topic about Damage but I just wanted to go over the end of it.

From Season Five: Damage
ANDREW
That's all right, boys. I'll take it from here.
ANGEL
What?
ANDREW
Totally 'preciate your help on this one, big guy. Never could've found
her without you, but you got enough problems of your own to worry
about.
ANGEL
Get outta the way, Andrew.
ANDREW
(steps in Angel's path)
She's a slayer. That means she's ours.
ANGEL
Yeah. Sorry. Not how it works.
(to the guards) Load her up. Don't hesitate to tranq her if she so
much as—
ANDREW
(stands right up in Angel's face)
No. I don't think you... heard me, Angel.
(a group of young women walks out from the shadows to back up Andrew)
Think we're just gonna let you take her back to your evil stronghold?
Well, as they say in Mexico... No. We're not...gonna... let you.
ANGEL
She's psychotic, and I'm not turning her over...to you.
ANDREW
You don't have a choice. Check the view screen, Uhura. I got 12 Vampyr
Slayers behind me, and not one of them has ever dated you. She's coming
with us one way or another.
ANGEL
You're way outta your league. I'll just clear this with Buffy.
ANDREW
Where do you think my orders came from? News flash—nobody in
our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram & Hart.
Don't fool yourself... we're not on the same side. Thank you for your
help... but, uh...we got it.


So, the dialog to refresh your memory makes it clear enough - Buffy betrayed Angel.

Now I let Buffy slide a lot. I like her, I appreciate the difficulties of her life and world but this I refused to swallow. Here is Angel trying to help this disturbed girl and so Buffy sends Andrew in to “help”. Of course he’s not really helping in so much as he’s extorting and stealing with support from a little gang. Truly remarkable ethics the Buffy team has adopted.

Now what’s this about not trusting them because they work with WR&H? Did anyone on Buffy ever even mention that company or anything it did? Do they know anything about it, really? Oh wait...water good, fire bad. That’s it. Wolfram & Hart was bad. That policy was brilliant. Angel should’ve used that way back in Season 1 and just killed Lindsey.

Oh wait..that’s not what he does. He’s like a hero or something.

So, we have the crimes of betrayal, theft and extortion for Team Buffy. Let’s also add in hypocrisy. Angel is working with Wolfram & Hart to do good things. Andre was working with WR&H to do good things...yet it’s Angel who can’t be trusted. You know when Angel really couldn’t be trusted, Buffy? When he was letting humans get eaten by two crazed vampires or smothering people while yelling hysterically. Maybe you should have done something back then when it actually might have been appropriate and coulda helped.

Let’s also factor in later in the Season when they try to get Willow to help them with Illyria.
Giles: Are you still with Wolfram & Hart?
Angel: Yes we’re still with Wolfram & Hart.
Giles: Oh too bad then. Guess you’re on your own to stop that planet-threatening time-warping invulnerable demon. We just have certain standards that can’t be compromised for such trivial things as an Old One planning to wipe out the human populace.

The whole situation was absurd. I haven’t read Eight Season but I hope whatever Buffy was doing in Europe was greater than all the good Angel’s group accomplished while working at WR&H.

[Lindsey McDonald]

This reminds me of the topic about why Spike didn't contact Buffy. It all comes down to the same thing: say there was a man. Let's call him Giles.

[white avenger]

This reminds me of the topic about why Spike didn't contact Buffy. It all comes down to the same thing: say there was a man. Let's call him Giles.


Yeah, though it was never said, I tend to believe that the primary one to not trust Angel would be Giles rather than Buffy. Giles has shown time and again that he trusted neither Angel nor Spike. At the time of "Damaged," Andrew was working for him, not Buffy, and Andrew almost certainly told Giles about Spike being back as soon as he saw him. He was just too much of a "Star Wars" freak to contain the fact that Spike had pulled a Han Solo and returned from the grave, so to speak. It was Andrew who put on that little performance in Rome to convince Spike and Angel that Buffy was not only there, but "moving on," with the Immortal. There was no reason whatsoever for him to hide the truth of where Buffy actually was from them.

[Blondie Bear]

I was just thinking that it was more Andrew than Buffy; it seems that Giles and Andrew were playing go-between and only giving Buffy the information they thought she absolutely needed. Giles wouldn't want Buffy to have anything to do with either Angel or Spike, so he probably intercepted all attempts to contact her and decided what was best for everyone involved.

Hm, actually kind of sounds like Angel that way. Maybe the writers were giving him a taste of his own medicine.

[chiigusa]

I really don't blame Buffy, Giles, Andrew, etc for not trusting Angel (I do agree that it was probably Giles' orders as well, considering the events of the Season 8 comic). I'm sure what Wolfram & Hart did was common knowledge for anyone remotely involved in the ways of the supernatural. Despite the fact that Angel was trying to change the way it worked, the power of W&H was rooted in evil, and I'm betting Giles knew that deep down. Hell, even the Angel crew knew it deep down.

And considering Buffy was basically in charge of this army of Slayers that kept growing day by day, it really was her jurisdiction. Angel didn't really have any reason to meddle in those affairs, except for a power play, really. I don't think it's a betrayal on any side, despite either party possibly not trusting the other anyway. But it's more of a who's suited better for the job of caring for a crazy Slayer. And I think Buffy & crew were much better suited and prepared.

And as stated above, Andrew might be putting words in Buffy's mouths to shake up Angel & co and to keep them away. He did make the quip about none of the slayers having dated him. So, Buffy may have been completely clueless to the events of Damaged.

[Tranquillity]

I don't think Buffy betrayed Angel at all. From Buffy's perspective, she's a wanted terrorist, she has her own global organisation to run and protect, she sees Angel running a branch of Wolfram and Hart (an evil organisation completely at odds with Slayer ideals) and has no idea why and he's not sharing any details or information so, IMO, she has no choice other than to NOT trust Angel.

[Angel's vision]

It's not a question of trust, as much as what was the point in allowing Angel to think that he was getting help to stop a psychotic slayer?
I think it was clearly Giles who sent Andrew to "help", and Andrew used the Buffy line just to stab Angel where it hurts so he could hand Dana over. Andrew couldn't overcome Angel physically so his best weapon was to hurt the guys feelings. To get the result. Angel reacted the way he did because Andrew put his back up. By being patronising. He delibratly set it up, so he could have that caustic put down in the right place.

I personnaly think wether Angel was to be trusted or not, that was one nasty tactic that was unnecessary and spitefull. I wonder why they never tried to find out why he was there, and I would of thought it obvious that if suddenly he is working for W&H that they must of done something to lure him there (emotional blackmail reg Conner) for those who are familiar with him.

I'm not sure Buffy was involved, but her reaction may have been "oooh oooh I feel betrayed, oh Angel how could you" etc.
Yes I do feel it was a betrayal in terms of Angel had sunk low and they were willing to abandon him especially when Fred needed help. BUT we don't know what Angel told Giles and from the dialogue it looked like Giles didn't give Angel a chance to say what was happening to Fred, even if he did, I doubt Giles would of cared, but what do I know?

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think Buffy betrayed Angel at all. From Buffy's perspective, she's a wanted terrorist, she has her own global organisation to run and protect, she sees Angel running a branch of Wolfram and Hart (an evil organisation completely at odds with Slayer ideals) and has no idea why and he's not sharing any details or information so, IMO, she has no choice other than to NOT trust Angel.

I agree. W&H is basically the opposite of The Watchers Council, both going for total opposite goals, one employs evil to take over the world while the other trains forces of good to stop them. So Giles probably knew about the company from his time in the council. And since the Scoobies didnt know why Angel and co. joined them, they took the safest route of not trusting them. It wouldnt be the first time Angel went bad, and between Giles and Xander, they wouldnt trust Angel with their lives.

[angelchick182]

I've said in another post, and I'll comment again - I really don't think the statement "we don't trust you" was the entire 'we'. The Scoobies(as told in the s8 comics) are spread out into different factions around the globe, and I'm not sure if Buffy was even aware of Andrew's trip to L.A. to extract Dana. Sure, he said his orders came from Buffy, but the plan and attitude comes off as Giles all around. It's no secret that Giles has, in the past, made decisions on his own that he saw were for "Buffy's own good". Another reason I don't believe that Andrew's statements encompass that of the entire group is Faith. Given the history between Angel and Faith, she's another one that I just don't see turning her back and not trusting Angel based on "face-value" knowledge. If she thought Angel(with or without W&H) was a threat, I believe she'd be in on a plan to help. As for when Angel called Giles to recruit Willow to help Fred when Illyria took over her body - Willow, being who she is, I think would've helped. But she wasn't going to help, because I'm sure Giles had no intention of even telling Willow what had happened.

So, no - I don't believe that Buffy or most of her group betrayed Angel. I believe this was yet another instance of Giles making decisions that he felt benefitted Buffy and the group.

[Angel's vision]

It wouldnt be the first time Angel went bad, and between Giles and Xander, they wouldnt trust Angel with their lives.

Angel didn't go bad working for W&H, let's get right. He was emotionally blackmailed into joining and run it as he wanted, only for them to throw some grey areas into his path once he got there. There is a difference.
I agree that Giles and Xander wouldn't trust him with their lives BUT that is up to them isn't it?

[white avenger]

If Giles were indeed blocking communication between Angel and the Slayers, that might also answer another question I've wondered about, namely, why wouldn't Angel, with all of the resources of Wolfram and hart at his command, take steps to make Faith's escape from prison, and even any record of her arrest, trial, and sentencing simply disappear. It's the kind of thing that they would probably specialize in, and if anyone had ever earned it, Faith has. Well, if Giles is effectively blocking all communication between the two groups, Angel might very well have done so and sent word through Giles that she really had nothing to worry about anymore, and Giles, being the treacherous, vindictive, manipulating old B**tard that he has become, simply never told her.

[Angel's vision]

Faith went straight from Team Angel in S4 to Sunnydale, there was no evidence she went back to prision, in fact there is indecations she considers herself on the run and and Ex con. Angel could of used his resources to say wipe her record.

[white avenger]

Faith went straight from Team Angel in S4 to Sunnydale, there was no evidence she went back to prision, in fact there is indecations she considers herself on the run and and Ex con. Angel could of used his resources to say wipe her record.

She had an arc in Season 8, which began with her in Cleveland, then traveling to Europe, so she never went back to the Grey Bar Hotel after Sunnydale.

[Primal Slayer]

Angel didn't go bad working for W&H, let's get right. He was emotionally blackmailed into joining and run it as he wanted, only for them to throw some grey areas into his path once he got there. There is a difference.
I agree that Giles and Xander wouldn't trust him with their lives BUT that is up to them isn't it?

Im saying from Giles and Xanders point of views. They know he has gone evil before and it probably wouldnt surprise them if he had gone evil agin.

[buffhead]

I dont think it was Buffy not trusting Angel, it could have been all of the things previously mentions, or just a combination.

Now, I have not yet had the opportunity to read but the first 2 comics of season 8, so Im not sure what is going on with Giles there.

One thing I do know, is that in "Chosen" when Angel showed up with the file about the first and the amulet "meant for a champion" both from Wolfram & Hart, Buffy asked if it was a reliable source, Angel replied with "not remotely". So Buffy was aware he was working with Wolfram & Hart, but with her battle against the first, she didnt refuse their assistance, in whatever form it was. So no, I dont think that Buffy distrusts Angel. If she did, she wouldnt have accepted his help then.

[xgirlanachronism245x]

Honestly, I blame the whole gang.

Really, Angel was good enough to help them with their apocolypse, giving them the LizTaylor jewelry and all. So Andrew, of all people, telling him that the whole gang doesn't trust him anymore was a LOW blow.

Especially for Buffy. I mean she of all people should realize there are shades of grey, not just good and evil... and you'd think that if Giles was behind it she would be smart enough to make that big of a decision herself... I mean Giles hasn't been Mr. Good Judgement lately... ie Spike in Lies My Parents Told Me.

But the 'we' may have just been Giles attempt to phase him out of Buffy's life.

Ach, I hated this episode. If it was Buffy, then it was completely out of character. Faith never would have gone along with it. And honestly, Angel could have been a big help to Buffy with her newly gained terrorist staus... especially with such sources at his GOOD fingertips...

Blah. Angel's good. Wolfram & Hart's questionable... but they managed to do good things there despite it... That should have been enough for Giles, Buffy, and the whole gang.

[Buffanator]

I don't see it as a betrayal on Buffy's part - after all, the Slayer-brigade was her responsibility (at least, she made it so) so I could see why she wanted Dana to be with the rest of the slayers.

If we could have seen Buffy (at all!) in Angel S-5, I think she might have questioned Angel's working for W&H, but Angel would have explained his POV & Buffy would have understood & supported him. That's just their way with each other. FLASHBACK to when Angel did a C-O in S-4, & in Buffy's dorm room, & Riley said he "wasn't leaving... no sir".... so Buffy & Angel went out into the hallway to talk. THAT is the way Buffy & Angel dealt with anyone outside themselves. So I really don't think Buffy would have suspected Angel of being evil just because he was working for W&H.

Yes, in my mind, the whole scene of Andrew & the slayers getting Dana was totally a Giles plan. Even tho Andrew did allude to his orders coming from Buffy -he never said it outright, so yeah, I think Giles was behind all that.

[Lindsey McDonald]

About Andrew alluding to getting orders directly from Buffy: he always did big up his own part in operations. He probably just wanted to impress Angel and Spike. And although I'm sure Buffy would have trusted Angel if they had actually met, she could probably have been convinced to take the slayer from him with a bit of distance between them. She was always insecure about Faith being left with Angel, and I'm sure those feelings would have been brought to the surface in such a similar situation. That would seriously cloud her judgement.

[white avenger]

The really sad part of this whole thing is that, given the facilities at Angel' command at Wolfram & Hart, he was almost certainly much more able to help Dana than Giles and whatever was left of the Watchers' Council ever could have.

[UnKle]

I've said in another post, and I'll comment again - I really don't think the statement "we don't trust you" was the entire 'we'. The Scoobies(as told in the s8 comics) are spread out into different factions around the globe, and I'm not sure if Buffy was even aware of Andrew's trip to L.A. to extract Dana. Sure, he said his orders came from Buffy, but the plan and attitude comes off as Giles all around.
Bang on. At least, that's my take, as well. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Andrew go off to England with Giles for watcher training? Eventually he ended up in Rome, I know, but I think first he went to London, when the Scoobies all split up to go round up the new slayers of the world.

I doubt Buffy was privy to Andrew going to L.A. with a band of slayers to capture Dana. I might have believed it back when "Damages" aired, along with the ridiculous idea that Buffy was living large in Rome with a weirdo named The Immortal, but with Season 8 now? There's this big "Oohh" moment of understanding for me, that Giles, even though he's not close to Buffy anymore, is still deciding what's best for her, as well as not really keeping his operation in sync with hers.

Another take on it is that Andrew was probably tutored in what to tell Angel, to keep Angel from finding Buffy. Buffy is, as was pointed out, a wanted terrorist in a post-9/11 world. Keeping Angel off the scent, so to speak, even at the risk of ruffling a few feathers, would be worth it to Giles.

Yep. It's Giles, all the way around.

[DrusillaRox]

they're not together anymore, the girl needed help and personally I think the only person that could truley help her is Faith. not a betryal, it was about the girl

[Lily]

I can still remember feeling like it was a punch in a the gut when I heard that dialogue the first time, I just thought it was stomping on all the Buffy/Angel respect the mission stuff that had been built up over the years...
but then I thought more about it and realised that Andrew is often (usually) wrong or at the least, misinformed and he may have only been under the impression that all his orders came from Buffy via Giles and not that Giles or anyone else directing him, could be acting on their own steam, and if I believe that scenario i can happily continue to live in my happy Bangel bubble, so that is what I believe.