Joyce's Warning

[chiigusa]

I just watched 'Conversations with Dead People' and had a curious thought. I apologize if this has been discussed before, but couldn't find a thread about it. But, here's the quote...

Joyce: When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you.

I'm trying to recall the later events of Season 7 and can't exactly pinpoint what Joyce could be referring to. When was Buffy against Dawn in Season 7? I haven't watched this season all the way through in a number of months, so I may be completely missing something.

Any ideas?

[The Kinslayer]

Since my memory is like it is my first question is: Do we beyond doubt know that it was Joyce?

I guess I might be ashamed by the answer but what do I care.

[LorneyTunes]

I think its maybe just her saying Buffy has a job to do, your not at the top of the list the world is x

[chiigusa]

Yeah, I was wondering that too. But, considering the First never 'glowed', I always had a strong inkling that it WAS Joyce. But, that may be hopeful and wishful thinking because I miss Joyce.

[LorneyTunes]

I miss joyce to , but we have our own joyce on the boards who is fantastic :) .

Yeh i know but the first likes to play mind games aswell. you know try and stir things up before the big fight , divide and then smash x

[ILLYRIAN]

I'm with you on this one LorneyTunes. Before season 7 how much was known about the First, so it played with peoples minds and very effectively, heck people are still a bit confused by it.
Get the BB Joyce and Buffy to give their thoughts on the First not playing with Dawns mind, chances are neither of their comments would be to complimentary.
It was said that the First always told the truth, well yes. But only to those who had or were human, Dawn was made 'as a' human by the Monks of Dagon; so not a human.

[Cangel]

Well, like others already pointed out, there is this matter if it was the real Joyce or not. Since we have no way of solving this issue, let's just skip this part.

What I find so intriguing by this quote is how in the end, at least to me, it holds a certain irony. Remember how everyone basically kicked Buffy out of the house? And remember who a certain sister didn't stand up for her and rather even also wanted her to leave? So who didn't chose who? It was exactly the other way around, "When it's bad, Dawn won't chose you"

And well, there is always of course the possibility that Joyce is referring to something that hasn't happened yet.

[Lindsey McDonald]

I believe it was said in a commentary or something that it was originally meant to be Joyce, but when they changed the overall arc of Season Seven, they let it seem as if it was the First. That's why that line lost its significance. Joss may pick it up again in Season 8 though. Sorry I can't be more specific.

[white avenger]

Even if it were the First, it has to be remembered that, through the entire season, it never really lied. It simply stated the truth in such a way as to mislead whoever it was talking to, like when it, as Mayor Wilkins told Faith that Buffy was dangerous and would never really trust her. Well, Buffy IS dangerous, but she's dangerous to the First and its minions. And, sadly, even in Season 8, she doesn't really trust Faith, or at least seems quite willing to believe that she has slipped back into her old ways. The truth is, that in the end, Buffy DIDN'T choose Dawn, or any of the Scoobies, or any of the Potentials, or Faith, or even Angel. She chose Spike. To be her champion. See? Absolute truth, just told in a was that is misdirecting.

[Joyce Summers]

Like WA, despite being evil, The First always told the truth, but lied with it. I think Cordelia said that about Angel once 'He lies with the truth' and I think it was a similar deal with The First.

As for the "Buffy won't choose you line", I sort of had an 'Aaaah, maybe that's what it meant' moment in Lies My Parents Told Me and Giles asked if Buffy were in a similar situation to the The Gift, what would she decide now- the world or Dawn. And Buffy replied she would sacrifice Dawn for the world because she 'gets' the big picture now.

Now, an online friend of mine several years back actually got an email to Jane Espenson to ask as to whether it was really Joyce in CwDP people and she replied, no it wasn't; it was The First. But she was incredibly pleased that she wrote it so convincingly. HOWEVER the Joyce that speaks to Buffy in Bring on the Night is another matter entirely. Apparently, that was meant to be Joyce giving Buffy a little push- the apparent clue was her handing Buffy a book. Despite being a dream, they would have still made The First incorporeal, but Joyce was pretty much solid here.

[Fake Shemp]

its always niggled me too, cause we dont know if its Joyce or the first.... they even say something about your not supposed to know on the commentary....

and its weird since before buffy chose dawn over EVERYTHING else...... im just about to start season 7 again so ill be watching out for it

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

I just watched the commentary and im fairly sure Jane Espenson (she was the one who wrote that scene with Dawn, right?) said it is the First.

[Buffanator]

As for the "Buffy won't choose you line", I sort of had an 'Aaaah, maybe that's what it meant' moment in Lies My Parents Told Me and Giles asked if Buffy were in a similar situation to the The Gift, what would she decide now- the world or Dawn. And Buffy replied she would sacrifice Dawn for the world because she 'gets' the big picture now.



That's what I thought. When Buffy told Giles that YES, she WOULD sacrifice Dawn... "to save the world". I never questioned if Joyce was a real "ghostly" entity or The First - I just concentrated on the words.

BUT - The First couldn't "see" into the future... could it? If it could, it would have known that Buffy getting the scythe was a pivitol point in the "win" and would have instructed Caleb to fight her for it once she king-arthured it out of the rock. Instead, First-Buffy told Caleb to "let her go."

So in that light - if The First CANNOT see into the future, then Joyce telling Dawn "when it's bad, Buffy won't choose you" and then Buffy saying she would sacrifice Dawn would mean that Joyce WASN'T The First. At least, that's how I look at it.

BUT (another but! always another but) if Jane E. said that Joyce WAS The First (& she should know! she wrote it!) .... then see? Now that whole scene doesn't make sense... except that The First was just trying to rattle Dawn.

[Primal Slayer]

after I watched the entire season, I just mocked it up to Buffy making Xander get Dawn out of Sunnydale. She didnt want to stay for the fight and was against her staying.

[sk73]

My solution is that it really was the First speaking as Joyce.
And he/she/it only said it to mix things up a little, making Dawn not trusting Buffy and so on...

/SK

[hyperballadbrad]

Different ideas aside, I think it was the First personally. That's how I choose to view it. Deceitful and crafty so it is! Very clever and subversive.

[Fake Shemp]

yeah i listened to the comentary and jane said there was a point to her cutting her feet, so that when dawn did a spell to bring joyce back... her foot would go in the glowy spell and drip in blood and then when joyce appeared dawn would think she had brought her back (but she hadnt) but then it got cut so it looks more ominous to whether its the first or joyce, but yep jane wrote it and its the first. i was just so hoping it wasnt.

[sosa lola]

I don't think the threat ever played out, they crammed so much into the season, so many things were lost or forgotten. Which is why S7 came out uneven and rushed.

[Dlou444]

Without going back and rewatching CwDP, didn't that girl also tell Willow that Tara wanted her to kill herself so they could be together?
In a sense, it feels like where the First "lies with the truth" he's more lying with the truth that the person he's speaking to "wants" to hear. Like the Nightmares episode, kind of like their worst fear.
I would NEVER believe Tara wanted Willow to kill herself, but I WOULD believe that at some point Willow thought Tara might want her to....if only to justify her feeling like she wanted to kill herself to be with Tara. (Did that make sense?)
I also feel like what Joyce said wasn't so much a LIE as too vague a reference, but left vague to hurt Dawn and make her not trust Buffy. Which may lead to Dawn's reaction when they oust Buffy later. On the other hand, it could mean LOTS of things. Like in reference to when Buffy tries to send Dawn with Xander or when Dawn turns out NOT to be a potential. Or, for all we know, when Buffy decides to go get burgers over the pizza Dawn wants for dinner one night.

Like Horoscopes! Not really a lie, just too vague to have too fine a point.

[Fake Shemp]

of course the argument of takeaway!!!!!!!! LOL

[Fake Shemp]

I GOT IT I GOT IT!!!!!!!! (well if i've got it you've got it now)

blackadder quotes aside

in 'lies my parents told me' Giles and Buffy are in the graveyard discussing spike, and how things have changed after all buffy's been through.

Giles- would you let this vampire live if it meant saving the world?
(after he asks her not to stake the vamp she's fighting with, remember giles only found out not long before that that buffy had decided to remove spikes chip)
buffy and the vamp banter
(b-looks like a nice enough guy.... richard.....hi rich... etc)

Buffy- giles we had this conversation, when i told you i wouldn't sacrifice Dawn to stop Glory from destroying the world.

Giles- ah yes but things are different now, aren't they... after what you've been through... faced with the same choice, now, you'd let her die.

Buffy- If I had to.... to save the world, yes.

(Giles still wont let her dust the vamp and goes on to say "you really do understand... that anyone of us is expendable in this war...

Buffy- HAVE YOU HEARD MY SPEECHES? (LOL)

and then Giles brings up spike... (which Robin has set off his trigger and is now trying to kill, vengeful style) Buffy is caught off guard and is tackled by the vamp, more lol'ness


so yeah the first was right.... the first was joyce... here endeth the lesson... or something

[LifeIsJustThis]

I always found it kind of confusing that Buffy changed her mind about Dawn. I mean, she was so vigilant about never hurting Dawn (When she said something to the effect of "I'll kill anyone that tries to hurt Dawn") Yet, then when she's talking to Giles later on, she admits she understands the big picture now, and she would kill Dawn to save the world is she "had too".

anything else think this is strange?

[Blondie Bear]

I think Buffy had been to a very dark place and wasn't quite as willing to sacrifice herself anymore. And she knew that self-sacrifice lead to Heaven, so she knew Dawn would be in a good place if she died.

[LifeIsJustThis]

I never thought of it like that. I figured it was just that she no longer cared about anything - including Dawn - like she had just given up. The mission is all she cared about.

[paisley]

well she was saying that if she had to chose between saving dawn again and saving the world her outlook has changed and so would her desision. maybe its cuz she come to the realisation that the world is bigger than her family and she needs to protect it. dawn always annoyed me. but yeah. i dont know. it was the uber evil first now really joyce i guess talking. trying to turn people against each other.

[Veyron]

I actually don't think it was Joyce - I think it was probably the First trying as he did with all of the other members of the gang to demoralise and scare them so that during the final battle they'd be less effective.

However - if the vision was Joyce then it was a warning to Dawn that Buffy would send her away from where the danger was right before the gang and the potentials went down into the cave system under the seal - which of course Buffy did when she asked Xander to take Dawn away.

[scobro]

I thought the scene alluded to the point when Buffy was kicked out of the house and Dawn stepping up to her saying (paraphrasing) you are either with us or not. At least that is how it is justified in my mind.