Ben

[littlewilly]

Ever notice how much he messed up?
Like saying to the Minion ''i'd never do that to an innocent..''. Well done Benjamin.
Then he manages to fail in killing the minion by stabbing his belly once. C'mon Ben, if your gonna murder, then do it right.
But the worst act ever was in Spiral when he keeps the fact that he's Glory from the Scoobies then, obviously, he turns into Glory.
Then to top it all off, he's willing to sacrifice Dawn so he can live.
What a scumbag this guy is.
So no matter how hard the Scoobies tried, this idiot of a minor character shows up and ruins everything, without even trying.

Oh yeah, didnt you just LOVE the minions?
''oh Glorificus, your inconcevibleness'' ''oh.... thou''

[scobro]

I wouldn't say love, but I really liked the character. He wasn't an idiot, he was just written that way. I think had they not rushed (which the whole season felt rushed to me) they could have really played on his pathos more. Could have been an interesting character.

[Senior Watcher]

youre right LW, ben is scum.

he knew that by staying alive he was putting the whole world in danger. i dont believe in commiting suicide, however, he should have killed himself.......in which case it would be considered an "unselfish sacrifice" and not "suicide."

im glad that giles had the wits to kill ben in the last episode.

[edb]

Yep, he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. At first you think he is an ok kind of guy, seems to be trying to do the right thing, but ultimately at the end he was only interested in saving his own ass.

[scobro]

he should have killed himself.......

Ben's whole character was built around his wanting to live. Just to have a normal life. In the end, once the key was discovered, it didnt matter if Glory or the Key won- as long as he could have a normal life as a result. That is why he "hid" who he was, because he knew it would be his death if anyone found out.

he knew that by staying alive he was putting the whole world in danger.
With that reasoning Dawn should have killed herself as well.

One could argue that Ben had more of a right to live as he was human, whereas Dawn was not. She was just energy made flesh.

[Atren]

Hmm, i voted loved, but i do not. However i did like him as someone who stood out and had dealings with buffy, but not escalating it to BF level.

[edb]

Valid points scobro. :)

I always thought Dawn should have sacrificed herself too, but it was never going to happen - unfortunately. ;)

I think you can sympathise with Ben & Dawn, as neither had any choice in what they actually were; that decision was taken out of their hands. Both just wanted to lead 'normal lives'.

I guess I would like to think that most people in a situation like that would choose to give up their own life to save the lives of many, but in reality I am sure most people would choose to save themselves.

I'd like to think that I would give up my life to save others, but who knows if I could actually do it.

[littlewilly]

But, it WAS Bens decision to put everyone at deadly risk by being there in Spiral, when he knew he would eventually turn into Glory.
Why didnt he maybe drive to NY, then when he turned to Glory she'd be thousands of miles away, instead of RIGHT THERE.

[scobro]

But, it WAS Bens decision to put everyone at deadly risk by being there in Spiral, when he knew he would eventually turn into Glory.
Well, if you remember when he got there he said something along the lines of 'you didn't tell me it was this kind of emergency' and you have to remember also that Glory did not know what Ben knew, so Ben would not have known Glory knew Dawn was the key.

Also, Ben's conscience always got the better of him. He viewed himself as an honorable man or else instead of trying to help Dawn escape from Glory he could have just killed her there and then and been done with it. So naturally when a friend- as Buffy was- said there was a medical emergency and had no one else to turn to, he felt obliged to help.

That is why Buffy could not kill him; he was a good man. (granted, in a bad situation, but still a good man)

[Blondie Bear]

He was kind of selfish, but you can see his reasoning . . . up until he decided that his life was worth more than Dawn's. I do wonder, though, after his discussion with the female scabby demon in "Spiral," how much control he had over his own thoughts and decisions. I mean, maybe he COULDN'T kill himself because his dual nature wouldn't let him. Maybe he COULDN'T leave Sunnydale because Glory's desires took precedence.

Just a thought.

[littlewilly]

Even though Ben may not have known that Glory knew Dawn was the key, he still knew that because Dawn knew she was the key that her being near Glory was a major risk. If Ben had any ounce of decency he'd have put as much distance between him and Dawn as possible.
He was so selfish, always on about ''oh, what about MY life, I want to be a doctor, this isnt fair''. What a baby.

[scobro]

he still knew that because Dawn knew she was the key that her being near Glory was a major risk.
Yet in the hospital when Dawn was pumping Glory for information they were right in one anothers face and Glory had no idea Dawn was the key. Glory could not deduce on her own that Dawn was the key. Even when they found out it was a human it took Tara to inform Glory it was Dawn.

[littlewilly]

Its really the monks faults anyway, making Dawn the key. He shouldve made it a stone and sailed 10 miles out to the ocean and tossed it in. Either that or make it a grain of sand in the desert.

[Blondie Bear]

^ And how in the world did they think even the SLAYER could protect it from Glory? Duh. Losing it is a much more logical idea than trying to secret it away with people somewhere.

[littlewilly]

And, did it just so happen Glory was already in SD? or did the key act as some sort of homing beacon for her inconceviblness?

[Blondie Bear]

Very good question. No freaking idea. They indicated that Ben/Glory hadn't been in town long, but never explained why she/he/they chose Sunnydale.

[edb]

I think more than likely it acted like a beacon, (maybe it was the monks she followed rather than the Key itself?)although digressing from the original topic. ;)

Yes, Ben was selfish, he had his reasons & maybe, just maybe he couldn't kill himself because of Glory - before Giles killed him he did offer to go away, far away & never come after the Key again, but Giles knew this would not be the case, which makes you wonder if he really had any real influence in his life - did Glory just take control of everything?

I didn't love him or hate him, in fact I think what I feel most for him is pity.

[fly on the wall]

Ugh. He bothered me.

The whole "I'd never do that to an innocent..." could have been fixed so easily! He could have said "world." Ta-da. Problem solved.

I was soooo angry when he showed up in Spiral. I wanted to yell at the TV, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?" Maybe he didn't know that Glory knew Dawn was the key...(although why else would Buffy call him and say they needed a doctor in the middle of the desert? Random road trip?)...but he still knew him being near Dawn was a risk. That's why he freaked out when Dawn let slip she was the key at the hospital, telling her she needed to get away from him, etc...

In the end, he didn't care about anything but his own hide. Sure, I pitied him. But he was totally selfish.

[Dlou444]

I just remember thinking, "If Buffy hooks up with this loser, I'm gonna PUKE!"

[scobro]

pffft.. what's wrong with you people? Seriously.. what was so bad about the character of Ben?

[Dlou444]

pffft.. what's wrong with you people? Seriously.. what was so bad about the character of Ben?

Did you WATCH S5?

He was okay as soothing hospital guy helping Buffy.

It was about the time he starts talking with the minions, finds out Dawn's the Key but does NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to help Buffy or Dawn or anyone else....just rolls along like an idiot.
Why not LEAVE TOWN? Or run to Buffy and tell her the WHOLE STORY? Or throw himself off a roof?
No, it's MUCH more fun to act shifty, speak in riddles so we don't know more than we're supposed to at any given moment and insure an impending apocalypse. Play doctor while at the same time turning into some woman who's making everyone crazy so you have to summon some weird demon from mars to eat the crazy people.

He's a ponce and NOT good at logical thinking!

[littlewilly]

As i said before, i actually liked him, despite his foolishness, right up until Spiral. I dont even really mind that he wanted to save himself instead of Dawn(who wouldnt) but what annoys me is he messed up once, then twice, then the Spiral incident, and i was like ''come on Ben, pull your socks up''

[scobro]

finds out Dawn's the Key but does NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to help Buffy or Dawn or anyone else....

But why SHOULD he help Buffy or Dawn or anyone else? Why should he leave town, kill himself etc etc He did nothing wrong! except for...

is he messed up once I do agree that if you are gunna gut someone you dont pussyfoot around, you gut 'em good and proper. I still dont see the other incidents as being a mistake.

if ya'll dont vote me off the island I might could dig this place.. i like to play devils advocate

[littlewilly]

But why SHOULD he help Buffy or Dawn or anyone else? Why should he leave town, kill himself etc etc He did nothing wrong! except for.]

If he SHOULDNT help Dawn or Buffy maybe he should have just left instead of choosing to hang around(hang around them specificly)

[Dlou444]

He did NOTHING WRONG?

Okay, how about playing, "I'm All Good and Pure and wouldn't hurt a fly" while KNOWING FULL WELL that Glory wanted to get the key (which would mean killing Dawn, assumably the sister of a girl he's interested in dating) to open a portal to a giant hell dimension and kill EVERYONE, including him?
That's not somewhat of a BAD THING?

So, if I know one of my multiple personalities plans to kill most of the planet for selfish reasons....I should just go on with my life and not warn anyone or put myself in a padded cell?

That's some LOVELY, but rather selfish logic there!

[scobro]

If he SHOULDNT help Dawn or Buffy maybe he should have just left instead of choosing to hang around(hang around them specificly)
What good would leaving do when Glory would head right back there? He was only in control part of the time. He couldnt just pack up her minions and palatial estate and wander off somewhere.

Edit:

Hopen a portal to a giant hell dimension and kill EVERYONE, including him?
Actually Glory told him that HE could live. :) As I said, that is all he cared about. Living his life as normal as he could.

[Dlou444]

DUH! It takes a while to get from Sweden to Sunnydale!

Edit:

Actually Glory told him that HE could live. As I said, that is all he cared about. Living his life as normal as he could.

Yeah, cuz it's fun to live and flourish at your job when EVERYONE ELSE IS DEAD!

[Lindsey McDonald]

DUH! It takes a while to get from Sweden to Sunnydale!


Not for a Goddess. Just sayin'. Travel wasn't really an option.

[Dlou444]

It doesn't really SHOW her traveling at the speed of light. She seems to move about the same speed as everyone else. I'd bet, she'd have to fly in a plane! I mean, she had to buy the snake stuff at the magic box like everyone else!

[Blondie Bear]

^ She doesn't go at the speed of light, but she does get blurry. BUT we never see her teleport or anything. It's implied that she CAN'T. So it would take her awhile to get back, especially if every time Ben took control again he moved them further away.

[fly on the wall]

I just wanted to add something else that bothered me about Ben. Well, more the actor than Ben himself. I hate how he delivered his lines, with all the words strung together.
"HereDawnhere'ssomehotchocolateImadeitforyouI'msorr yIforgotmarshmallowsmaybenexttime."
"BuffyI'msorryaboutyourmombutdon'tworryhe'sagooddoc torhe'lltakecareofeverythingyoushouldrest."
Gahhh. :mad:

[Lindsey McDonald]

^ She doesn't go at the speed of light, but she does get blurry. BUT we never see her teleport or anything. It's implied that she CAN'T. So it would take her awhile to get back, especially if every time Ben took control again he moved them further away.

She wasn't exactly exerting herself though. That was only as fast as she had to go to easily catch up with Buffy. She didn't even break a sweat. If she had to get back to Sunnydale, I'm sure she could.

[The Kinslayer]

I guess I would like to think that most people in a situation like that would choose to give up their own life to save the lives of many, but in reality I am sure most people would choose to save themselves.
The survival instinct is an amzing thing. Yes, I hate Ben for certain things, but they are understandable. Do I hate Ben in general? No, he´s just human. No love, no hate but I do care about him. So I guess that makes me voteless.



I'd like to think that I would give up my life to save others, but who knows if I could actually do it.
Sitting here in front of the computer I can easly say that I would sacrifice my life for others. Humankind as a whole (like that option ever would appear? Duh!), or for people that are "special" to me. Random person? Probably not. But if the option ever would come up for real I´d probably do a "Ben" and be majorly selfish. Talk is easy, action not so much.


Totally off topic: Language lesson of today. Ben in swedish means leg or bone. Somebody please stop me...

[Fake Shemp]

personally i saw that each others essence of being was bleeding into each other... thats why he was willing to kill dawn.

[Senior Watcher]

Ben's whole character was built around his wanting to live. Just to have a normal life. In the end, once the key was discovered, it didnt matter if Glory or the Key won- as long as he could have a normal life as a result. That is why he "hid" who he was, because he knew it would be his death if anyone found out.

arent you forgetting that ben was in a losing battle with his other half (glory)? it was said numerous times that glory is becoming more dominant over the body than ben. there was one scene where ben got fired from the hospital because he was gone for 2 weeks and didnt know it. the point being that ben was going to die/fade out whether he wanted it or not.

With that reasoning Dawn should have killed herself as well.

that is a good point, however, its not dawn who should commit suicide. since dawn was created by mystical forces AND the fact that her being alive put the whole world at risk, buffy should have killed her. its buffys job to protect the world from mystical demons and gods. i was very upset with her decision to not kill dawn, however, it did make for good drama between her and giles.

One could argue that Ben had more of a right to live as he was human, whereas Dawn was not. She was just energy made flesh.

i stand behind what i said previously, ben should have killed himself; he knew what he was; he could have sacrificed himself to save the entire planet; not too many people can say that.

lastly, was ben more human than dawn? think about that long and hard scobro. i think that you will find that both are half fleshy human and both are half mystical. both couldnt help the circumstance they were in, but only one (ben) knew how to save the world.

so, no, i dont like ben. he is scum.

[scobro]

it was said numerous times that glory is becoming more dominant over the body than ben.

Right, but as long as Glory did not have the key when the time passed Glory would fade away also. That is why the key needed to remain hidden.

buffy should have killed her (dawn). its buffys job to protect the world from mystical demons and gods.
I agree



lastly, was ben more human than dawn? think about that long and hard scobro. i think that you will find that both are half fleshy human and both are half mystical.
That is correct, yet only one (Ben) was born human. As the story was told a human male was born that would be the gods prison. Ben was born human, Dawn was made human.. that is way I said Ben was more human. But yes, now (or then) both were only half human.

[caritas08]

I voted "Loved Him" but that is because I thought he was a brilliant character, not a good person. I liked Ben because he was initially a good person who wanted to help people and be a doctor. However, when his character was tested he didn't meet the bar. He allowed Glory to suck people's brains, he summoned the Queller Demon to cover up her actions, and he was willing to sacrifice Dawn (and millions of other people's lives) to save his own. I think he is an interesting character however because Buffy and Angel include so many examples of normal people who unselfishly rise above overwhelming odds for the greater good. Ben is a normal person who has to face overwhelming odds and he makes a very selfish and cruel (but understandable) choice.

[Dlou444]

I just gotta say, I'd be happier with Ben if I had seen any active role in trying to STOP Glory.
I'm all for self preservation and maybe he shouldn't have thrown himself off a building. HOWEVER, there's not much "self preservation" to I'm the only person alive, either.

He basically KILLS all the crazy people by bringing the crazy person eater from space.
Then he finds out Dawn is the key and what does he do? Goes to a party and asks Buffy out? That's RIDICULOUS!

All we ever really got to see was what happened when Glory emerged at times it was HELPFUL for her to emerge. It would have been nice to see Ben do something like, mail a letter to Dawn and Buffy saying anything he knew about Glory. Or doing something proactive other than just not help the minions.
Even when he KNEW they wanted him to get Buffy's address and were actively looking for her, he goes and wants to SPEND MORE TIME WITH HER knowing Glory could emerge at any given moment?
Surely he knows more about her than Buffy did or even we do. Why not try staying AWAY from Dawn and her family? Even if she can move fast, Sweden still seems like a nice place to try. It would take SOME time for her to make her way back and maybe he could emerge again in that time frame.

Sipping cocoa and going to parties hardly looks to me like a man who's concerned about the general well being of ANYONE knowing what he knows.

[Crazy Flakes]

I think, as the season progressed, it became increasingly obvious that Ben didn't really care about humanity at all...he just wanted to prove that it was his life, not Glory's. He seemed to do that by trying to stick it to her in any way possible, whether that meant becoming a doctor or hiding the key from her. And yeah, as everyone else has said, I think he's scum.

[SpoonsAreCool]

I HATE Ben, he was an idiot, I'm glad Giles finished him off, what a tosser.

[Airam]

that is a good point, however, its not dawn who should commit suicide. since dawn was created by mystical forces AND the fact that her being alive put the whole world at risk, buffy should have killed her. its buffys job to protect the world from mystical demons and gods. i was very upset with her decision to not kill dawn, however, it did make for good drama between her and giles.

When they were up in the tower Dawn actually was ready to jump instead of Buffy, before Buffy said she was gonna, so have to give her some kind of props for that. And I actually always felt that a big reason that Buffy was SO protective of Dawn and unwilling to sacrifice her for the world was that she made a promise to Joyce before she died to always keep her safe.

As for Ben... I actually didn't vote cause I'm kind of indifferent to him, to me he was a slightly more intersting version of Riley and only because half of him was Glory. Before we as an audience knew he was also Glory I remember thinking, oh no, Buffy is about to go and date another boring guy, ugh. I do feel a little bad for him, I mean the guy never even really had a chance, his life was never his own. Pretty sad if you think about it.