Buffy's return from the grave

[SamZie021]

Does anyone else think that Buffy dying ruined the rest of the show in certain aspects!?

When she returned she never seemed quite like Buffy again (I know she was torn out of heaven) it seemed as if from this point she was acting more like a martyr and more whiny than ever, I do like the character and everything but in my opinion her death ruined the character, what does everyone else think?

[littlewilly]

I think its one of the best things to happen to the show. Loved the Gift, and Bargainning, and the Buffy story in s6. She got less whiny after 6 or 7 episodes.

[scobro]

I would have liked her 'death' to have lasted longer; be Buffyless for five or six episodes. I always thought they brought her back too fast. Let the audience see really how badly the Scoobies/Sunnydale needed her to validate risking everything they risked to bring her back. The cast was huge and talented, it is not as if Willow and Spike were bit parts, they were stars unto themselves, they could have carried the show for a month on their own.

[SamZie021]

I would have liked her 'death' to have lasted longer; be Buffyless for five or six episodes. I always thought they brought her back too fast. Let the audience see really how badly the Scoobies/Sunnydale needed her to validate risking everything they risked to bring her back. The cast was huge and talented, it is not as if Willow and Spike were bit parts, they were stars unto themselves, they could have carried the show for a month on their own.

I agree I think it would have been very interesting.

I do have another thought aswell in bargaining they want everyone to believe that Buffy is still alive, but we see her grave, but for there to be a grave, well surely people would kno tht she was dead, and also how would buffy when she was alive be able to get a job or loan etc, if technically shes been registered as dead, which she must have been for her to have been buried!!

[LifeIsJustThis]

I agree I think it would have been very interesting.

I do have another thought aswell in bargaining they want everyone to believe that Buffy is still alive, but we see her grave, but for there to be a grave, well surely people would kno tht she was dead, and also how would buffy when she was alive be able to get a job or loan etc, if technically shes been registered as dead, which she must have been for her to have been buried!!

Good point. There's quite a few goofs and holes in the show...I'm going to have to think about that one some more before I comment.

I do agree that they brought her back too quickly. Yes, there was a whole summer between 5 and 6...and I guess the gang was thinking about it that whole time - but she was only gone for one episode.

AS I've said before, 6 and 7 are my favorite seasons. The gang is dealing with real life issues, and I like that. As for the dark aspect fans complain about - I like the darkness.

Buffy is a brilliant character. Without having to go through all she did in 6 and 7, we wouldn't be able to see her true character arc. I loved her relationship with Spike, short-lived and destructive as it was. And I loved when Xander saved the world from Evil Willow. I loved seeing Dawn mature. Anf of course, the epic last epiosde...

[Buffanator]

Well shoot fuzzy fire...I reckon we could have stood a few more eppys with "Buffy-Bot" :D

No, it didn't ruin anything for me. I'm just glad that wasn't the end of the series!

[Clem Rocks]

I agree I think it would have been very interesting.

I do have another thought aswell in bargaining they want everyone to believe that Buffy is still alive, but we see her grave, but for there to be a grave, well surely people would kno tht she was dead, and also how would buffy when she was alive be able to get a job or loan etc, if technically shes been registered as dead, which she must have been for her to have been buried!!

Demons wouldn't know she was dead because they would just know her as "The Slayer". They wouldn't know her by name.

And how do we know she was declared dead and properly buried? Maybe Giles and Spike went out one night and buried her with only the Scoobs knowing.

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

^ yeah, i think the theory is that the Scoobs just made her a grave and all in the woods, and hid it from everyone. she wasnt in a cemetary or anything. they needed a place to put the body, and wanted to honor her and all, but didnt want anyone knowing she was dead.

I would have liked her 'death' to have lasted longer; be Buffyless for five or six episodes. I always thought they brought her back too fast. Let the audience see really how badly the Scoobies/Sunnydale needed her to validate risking everything they risked to bring her back. The cast was huge and talented, it is not as if Willow and Spike were bit parts, they were stars unto themselves, they could have carried the show for a month on their own.

that might have been interesting. and they couldve done sort of like they did with angel at the beginning of s3 and put her in dream sequences or something if they wanted to see SMG as more than just the Buffybot.

[Tranquillity]

I don't think her death ruined her character. I think it would have been worse if she had died, come back and not been changed or affected by the experience.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Hmm, I posted in another topic with an idea for Bargainning Pt 1 to happen at the end of Season 6, but I can't remember what I said about it. It did seem like a good idea at the time. Buffy would still have been around due to the Buffybot, and it would have been interesting to see the Scoobies cope without her.

I remember now, actually. I think it was in a topic about whether the show could go on after a core Scoobie's death.

[fly on the wall]

I agree I think it would have been very interesting.

I do have another thought aswell in bargaining they want everyone to believe that Buffy is still alive, but we see her grave, but for there to be a grave, well surely people would kno tht she was dead, and also how would buffy when she was alive be able to get a job or loan etc, if technically shes been registered as dead, which she must have been for her to have been buried!!

As someone else has said, nobody but the Scoobies knew.

Her grave was in the middle of the woods. The Buffy-Bot was acting like Buffy for Dawn's school, etc. Mr. Summers didn't even know his daughter was dead, so I hardly doubt there had been a funeral (except for one the Scoobies held, maybe) or any sort of notice or registration.

[caitaintdead]

I wonder why the gang covered up Buffys death. Giles and Spike didn't know that Willow and co were going to bring her back from the dead, so why cover up her death? It seems to easy to assume that it was because they couldn't accept it. Giles says in Bargaining that the underworld needs to believe that Buffy is alive and well, presumably so that the undead don't rampage the town (as the bikie demons do). Giles can't have thought that the Buffybot was a long term solution to Buffys death so what was he going to do? Giles leaves for England, and why? We are lead to believe that it's because he feels he has no place in Sunnydale with Buffy being dead, but wouldn't he feel some loyalty towards Dawn, if not the rest of the gang? Perhaps he was going back to England to discuss Buffy's death with the council, maybe even organise activating a new slayer so that the hellmouth is protected once again.

Buffys death, to me, was a bummer to the show. It changed things dramatically that I would have liked to stay the same. I would have loved for Buffy to be the same old Buffy throughout the series, but in reality would I really? Buffy becoming a different person and her personal growth is part of what I like about the series and Joss's writing talent. It's what makes Buffy different to other shows that are on TV. I feel like Buffy's death was awkward, and hard to deal with as an audience, exactly like it would have been if you were on the show. To me, brilliance.

[Primal Slayer]

It changed things for Buffy herself. While I like her still through S6-7, she did lose her charm that she had S1-5.

And The Scoobies buried Buffy in secrectcy. If they had declared her dead to anyone they wouldnt have bothered with the Buffybot and Hank Summers would have found out.

[Dlou444]

I think its one of the best things to happen to the show. Loved the Gift, and Bargainning, and the Buffy story in s6. She got less whiny after 6 or 7 episodes.

As someone who jumped ahead half a season would know more than I do! :drunk:

I DO think she was more whiny after she died than before she died. And I don't like the whininess (it's so hard to spell non-words), but I DO like the storyline. So, I just kind of block her out.

[littlewilly]

Look at it this way. Bargainning had the second highest viewer rating in Buffyverse history, and that means its the secon best episode ever. officialy

[Dlou444]

Look at it this way. Bargainning had the second highest viewer rating in Buffyverse history, and that means its the secon best episode ever. officialy

Oh, that's just insane. No one KNEW it was gonna be good before they watched it, so it could have drawn everyone to the TV and then they could have sat and stared at each other for 45 and it still would have been the 2nd highest viewer rating.
People just wanted to know how they were gonna get Buffy back from the dead. You're a Goof!

[fly on the wall]

I wonder why the gang covered up Buffys death. Giles and Spike didn't know that Willow and co were going to bring her back from the dead, so why cover up her death?

As you said, demons and such needed to think the Slayer was still alive, or they'd have reeked hell (no pun intended) in Sunnydale (as we saw in Bargaining 1+2). Every Hellmouth needs a good Slayer looking after it. :) But there's more to it than that..if Mr. Summers/social services/etc knew that Buffy was dead, they'd take Dawn away, and everyone felt it was in Dawn's best interests to stay in Sunnydale with the gang.

I'm sure they did expect the Buffybot to hold out longer than it did.

Plus, Giles considered himself Buffy's watcher first and foremost. Sure, he had loyalty to Dawn and the others, and he was just a phone call away...but I think remaining in Sunnydale was too painful for him. He felt that he'd failed Buffy and being reminded of that each and every day in painful Technicolor couldn't have been fun.

[caitaintdead]

Yeah, I can see all that, but I find it difficult to believe that Giles would think that the Buffybot could just live out Buffys life on her behalf without raising any questions. For example - wouldn't people notice when she didn't age?

[Dlou444]

I want to know how they buried her with a pretty headstone, casket and everything WITHOUT anyone knowing. It's not like the mortuary wouldn't need some sort of paperwork before letting you bury someone and buy a casket and a headstone.

[fly on the wall]

^ I always wondered about that myself. I suppose Willow could have made a casket/headstone with magic?

And I'm sure Buffybot wasn't supposed to be PERMANENT, but for now, she would do. Long-term, they would have to make a new plan.

[caitaintdead]

Right there with you... It just doesn't seem to add up. You know what would have been cool? If they'd started the downward spiral of Willow and her magic earlier and instead of having DarkWillow emerge at the end of season 6, have her emerge at the end of season 5 due to Buffy's death. That way Buffy would have come straight back, and Buffy still would have been distraught at only having a few minutes in happiness before being pulled back to Earth.

Season 6 could have explored Willows journey of redemption. I like it.

[OldSwede]

I want to know how they buried her with a pretty headstone, casket and everything WITHOUT anyone knowing. It's not like the mortuary wouldn't need some sort of paperwork before letting you bury someone and buy a casket and a headstone.

As has been pointed out above, they must have buried her themselves and they did it in the woods. According to the Sunnydale tourist guide the main Cemetery is actually just beside the woods, so I guess it's still near holy ground...

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

For example - wouldn't people notice when she didn't age?

i can see how the buffybot becoming a permanent buffy replacement would have caused trouble, but i dont think this would have been an issue. couldn't willow just change her design to look older?

I want to know how they buried her with a pretty headstone, casket and everything WITHOUT anyone knowing. It's not like the mortuary wouldn't need some sort of paperwork before letting you bury someone and buy a casket and a headstone.

i agree with the "willow couldve used magic option", but also, what about xander? couldnt he have whipped up a nice casket? he does make that weapons chest for buffy's birthday.

[Dlou444]

i agree with the "willow couldve used magic option", but also, what about xander? couldnt he have whipped up a nice casket? he does make that weapons chest for buffy's birthday.

Well, if Xander made that casket, I give him real props for the satiny stuff inside! Caskets....not easy to make and hold. Plus the headstone!
Even if they didn't bury her in the cemetary, they'd still have to buy these things that aren't you're everyday items you can pick up at Walmart. (Then there is the Xander or Magic option) and yet still, even if they bury her outside of the actual cemetary, you'd have to figure that with her name and everything on it, SOMEONE would eventually stumble across it. It's not exactly legal to just bury people willy nilly where ever you want. Especially if hiding the death all together.

And, why would Giles go along with any of that? It seems like he'd want her to have a "decent" burial. Not hidden in the woods with a black market head stone and casket on the off chance someone would try to bring her back.
There's the whole Dawn thing, but HE wasn't staying to take care of Dawn. I find it hard to believe, even as much as he seemed to dislike Hank's idea of parenting, that he'd believe Dawn was better off with two unemployed witches, a robot, (Xander and Anya MIGHT be okay) and an obsessed vampire with a chip in his head.
I mean, I love them too, but they'd hardly be the motley crew I'd will my children to in the event of my death!

Spirit_Of_Fred agrees: we're doing this play. it's about this dead girl. got any good headstones? :P

LMAO! Yes, "We don't mind paying a couple thousand....it's gonna be a REALLY good play!"

[scobro]

they'd still have to buy these things that aren't you're everyday items you can pick up at Walmart.
Maybe it was a faux halloween headstone that they did indeed did buy at Wal*Mart.. or better yet! maybe they bought it from one of those online headstone places for pets and what not.. Buffy does sound alittle like a miniature poodle kinda name... though I am sure explaining how a miniature poodle saved the world alot may have presented problems, it still had to be easier than legally bringing her back from the dead.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, if Xander made that casket, I give him real props for the satiny stuff inside! Caskets....not easy to make and hold. Plus the headstone!
Even if they didn't bury her in the cemetary, they'd still have to buy these things that aren't you're everyday items you can pick up at Walmart. (Then there is the Xander or Magic option) and yet still, even if they bury her outside of the actual cemetary, you'd have to figure that with her name and everything on it, SOMEONE would eventually stumble across it. It's not exactly legal to just bury people willy nilly where ever you want. Especially if hiding the death all together.

And, why would Giles go along with any of that? It seems like he'd want her to have a "decent" burial. Not hidden in the woods with a black market head stone and casket on the off chance someone would try to bring her back.
There's the whole Dawn thing, but HE wasn't staying to take care of Dawn. I find it hard to believe, even as much as he seemed to dislike Hank's idea of parenting, that he'd believe Dawn was better off with two unemployed witches, a robot, (Xander and Anya MIGHT be okay) and an obsessed vampire with a chip in his head.
I mean, I love them too, but they'd hardly be the motley crew I'd will my children to in the event of my death!

LMAO! Yes, "We don't mind paying a couple thousand....it's gonna be a REALLY good play!"

I think by this time they knew how to get into the many funeral homes in Sunnydale. I mean, every second episode of the first few seasons had them sneaking in to stake a newly dead person! They probably just took a coffin, and left money. I don't think Xander could have made it - not because he didn't have the skill, but because building a coffin for your best freind who just killed themself might be a little too much to handle. On the other hand, I can definately see Willow handling the headstone. That was probably done by magic.

Also, about protecting the grave, that was probably done by magic too. Nothing like a good ol' Muggle Reppeling Charm to avoid complicated problems like that!

[InsaneMystic]

I think by this time they knew how to get into the many funeral homes in Sunnydale. I mean, every second episode of the first few seasons had them sneaking in to stake a newly dead person! They probably just took a coffin, and left money. I don't think Xander could have made it - not because he didn't have the skill, but because building a coffin for your best freind who just killed themself might be a little too much to handle. On the other hand, I can definately see Willow handling the headstone. That was probably done by magic.

Also, about protecting the grave, that was probably done by magic too. Nothing like a good ol' Muggle Reppeling Charm to avoid complicated problems like that!
A bunch of college(-age) people stealing a freaking COFFIN unnoticed would notch up the Sunnydale residents' degree of obliviousness to even loftier heights than before, however. Especially since they don't even have Oz's van anymore to transport it in.

[Dlou444]

Also, about protecting the grave, that was probably done by magic too. Nothing like a good ol' Muggle Reppeling Charm to avoid complicated problems like that!

The camera guy was allowed to get pretty close...unless he had a zoom lens, he was even able to get close enough to see INTO the casket for the coming back to life! :whistle:
Who says drinking kills braincells?

[Lindsey McDonald]

A bunch of college(-age) people stealing a freaking COFFIN unnoticed would notch up the Sunnydale residents' degree of obliviousness to even loftier heights than before, however. Especially since they don't even have Oz's van anymore to transport it in.

Willow was unfettered at this point. I think she could have managed it. Plus....it would be dark. I've just got an image just now of the Scoobies carrying a coffin down that street (you know the one. The only one.) in broad daylight. Spike's running along under a blanket, and for some reason, David Fury is singing. Yeah. What was I talking about?

Oh yeah, coffins. People'd probably notice, but not till after the fact. How many funeral homes guard the coffins at night? Plus, it's Sunnydale. Stranger things have happened! A coffin going missing would hardly register on the repressometer.

[Dlou444]

Yeah, and most people that want to "hide a body" don't bother with a casket. Even in broad daylight (minus Spike and the blanket and David Fury singing) most people would probably assume it wasn't a REAL coffin. At least I would.

And it's surely not the strangest thing that would have happened in the town. I would think the whole "Body was in the coffin, mortuary closed, body gone the next day and lots of dust laying around" was a bigger problem!

[InsaneMystic]

I still think there's more subtlety (and, thus, more room for Sunnydaler denial) in "body strangely gone missing without a trace (and man, someone should VACUUM here!)" than in "half-ton, two cubic yard wooden object being carried around".

Please don't konk me, Lou. *cowering with arms over head*

[Lindsey McDonald]

Yeah, and most people that want to "hide a body" don't bother with a casket. Even in broad daylight (minus Spike and the blanket and David Fury singing) most people would probably assume it wasn't a REAL coffin. At least I would.

And it's surely not the strangest thing that would have happened in the town. I would think the whole "Body was in the coffin, mortuary closed, body gone the next day and lots of dust laying around" was a bigger problem!

"Err...Mrs. Smith! Yeah....about that open casket thing.....not really going to happen..... No! No, nothing's wrong with the body.... You did want a cremation, right?"

[InsaneMystic]

Dlou444 agrees: Come to think of it, that means there could be LOTS of empty buried caskets that the Scoobies would know where to find! LOL!
You know, gross and disgusting and graverobberish as it is, this does sound like the most probable explanation! Granted, those coffins would have a general tendency towards a somewhat bashed-in (or rather, bashed OUT) top, but it's nothing I couldn't trust the Xandman to fix.

[Dlou444]

Except the ones they staked BEFORE the burial that were probably buried empty as family members wouldn't patronize a mortuary that kept losing the bodies! Those would have to be covered up or the place would go out of business!

[scobro]

You know, gross and disgusting and graverobberish as it is
it's only gross and disgusting when necrophilia is involved, but at least they are doing it (ha!) in the privacy of their own homes.

[InsaneMystic]

I'm unconvinced. While such a cover-up probably could easily be pulled off here in Germany, where open-casket funerals are almost unheard of, Americans are big on that thing, aren't they? So wouldn't a mortuary that has to keep fidgeting up reasons to dissuade its clients from open-casket, after earlier having agreed to do that, face only somewhat milder, but still very noticable, problems with its business reputation?

Unless Sunnydale mortuaries all follow a strict policy that o-c costs lots and lots extra - so far fewer people would consider o-c in Sunnydale than in the general American population.

[scobro]

here in Germany, where open-casket funerals are almost unheard of,

whys that, shadow? a taste thing or something more? i think open caskets are kinda demented.

[InsaneMystic]

As I said in my PM to you already, I guess that the moment the dead person is put into the coffin seems to mark to our cultural mindset the line where it's no longer Uncle Jim, and instead becomes The Body - and we don't want to look at The Body. We tend to find the cosmetics aspect of American morticians to be irritating, too, for that reason.

[Dlou444]

I think, probably after the first one or two bodies disappeared, they started saying, "You know, we don't like open casket ceremonies and here's the 300 reasons you shouldn't either". Just in case more bodies disappeared later!

[scobro]

As I said

that predated the PM sorry

[Lindsey McDonald]

I think, probably after the first one or two bodies disappeared, they started saying, "You know, we don't like open casket ceremonies and here's the 300 reasons you shouldn't either". Just in case more bodies disappeared later!

Plus, it's Sunnydale, continent of denial. You don't ask too many questions about things like that. People knew a lot more than they ever let on.

[fly on the wall]

And, why would Giles go along with any of that? It seems like he'd want her to have a "decent" burial. Not hidden in the woods with a black market head stone and casket on the off chance someone would try to bring her back.
There's the whole Dawn thing, but HE wasn't staying to take care of Dawn. I find it hard to believe, even as much as he seemed to dislike Hank's idea of parenting, that he'd believe Dawn was better off with two unemployed witches, a robot, (Xander and Anya MIGHT be okay) and an obsessed vampire with a chip in his head.
I mean, I love them too, but they'd hardly be the motley crew I'd will my children to in the event of my death!

Giles may have wanted Buffy to have a proper burial, hell, they all probably did, but between proper burial or maintaining non-hell on earth, I think they chose the latter.
Furthermore, I think Giles wanted to a) respect Buffy's wishes for Dawn's placement, and b) respect Dawn's wishes too. Buffy had told Dawn right before she died to take care of her friends, stick together, etc etc. Well, Dawn can't really do that if she's off wherever the heck her dad is living. Dawn obviously wanted to remain in Sunnydale with the people she was closest to, especially during this difficult time. I can't imagine Giles telling her she couldn't stay with the people she considers "family" and instead had to live with her father who she's hardly seen in 6+ years, right after her sister/caretaker died, and a year after her mother died....seems kinda cold.

[Your Creamy Coolness]

It is all simple if you just think of it this way. Willow conjured up the cofffin. Willow conjured up the headstone. Willow could have even buried Buffy with magic without having to dig a grave. And then last but not least Willow put a spell on the area to keep anyone (aside from the scoobies) seeing Buffy's final resting place. Also Willow probably could have fixed the Buffybot to age and or conjured up a Buffy to take her place if the real Buffy would have never been brought back. By the time she needed to really age her I would say Willow's MOJO would have become really powerful. PROBLEM SOLVED. In my head.

[TaintedBlu]

Although I didn't particularly enjoy watching Buffy die (I cried...), I did however enjoy what death/heaven did for the character. It added an element of depth and internal strife that the show simply hadn't delivered before season 6.

It allowed the writers to move away from the whole "I'm a teenager mystically charged with saving the world - boohoo" gag that the show has always relied on.

And don't get me wrong! I love that gag! It is what makes the show so hilarious and fun to watch.

But can you really rely on that same gag for 7 seasons? Eventually something new in the character has to be explored, or else it is just same-old, same-old.

So, no, I don't think it ruined the show. I think it just changed it for the better.

[pernilleborup]

As you said: She was torn out of heaven.. That changes you. I rest my case... with beer

[EveryNiteISaveU]

As you said, demons and such needed to think the Slayer was still alive, or they'd have reeked hell (no pun intended) in Sunnydale (as we saw in Bargaining 1+2). Every Hellmouth needs a good Slayer looking after it. :) But there's more to it than that..if Mr. Summers/social services/etc knew that Buffy was dead, they'd take Dawn away, and everyone felt it was in Dawn's best interests to stay in Sunnydale with the gang.

I'm sure they did expect the Buffybot to hold out longer than it did.

Plus, Giles considered himself Buffy's watcher first and foremost. Sure, he had loyalty to Dawn and the others, and he was just a phone call away...but I think remaining in Sunnydale was too painful for him. He felt that he'd failed Buffy and being reminded of that each and every day in painful Technicolor couldn't have been fun.
Plus, they could have been covering up her death waiting for the next slayer to be called before it was made known that Buffy died. At least, that could have been Giles' thinking....we all know what the rest of the Scoobies had planned.

[Lindsey McDonald]

Plus, they could have been covering up her death waiting for the next slayer to be called before it was made known that Buffy died. At least, that could have been Giles' thinking....we all know what the rest of the Scoobies had planned.

Good idea, but I'm pretty sure that before Buffy was ressurected the Slayer line still ran through Faith. So, there wouldn't be another slayer called. Although, Buffy does say that one would be called to Giles, and he doesn't contradict her. I think he knew though.