Question...

[LifeIsJustThis]

Why won’t Giles and Willow help Angel ressurrect Fred? Did he make this decision without Buffy...or did Buffy deside not to help Angel herself?


Also, cool trivia fact...

Illyria is ths setting in Shakespeare’s "Twelfth Night" :)

[MozYa]

I think the given reason is that Angel has aligned himself with Wolfram and Hart aka Hell Inc.
(Although I'm not 100%, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Since the company is 'evil' they decided not to help Angel I believe.

I also believe it was a decision made without Buffy, I think she would have helped Angel as much as she could have.

Didn't know about 'The Tempest' being set in Illyria, something cool to know.

[white avenger]

Well, first of all, I seriously doubt that Willow would have refused to help if asked. If you look back at that episode and Angel's phone conversation with Giles, the Watcher refused to either relay the message to Willow or give Angel any help in even allowing direct conversation between the two (It's always struck me as strange that, once Angel knew that Willow was in Rio he didn't just use the W&H facilities to contact Willow directly, and to hell with Giles, but that's not what we're discussing here, so...). I've said it before: I believe that Giles purposely blocked communication between Angel and any of the Scoobies or Buffy herself, or even Faith. Almost certainly Andrew reported the fact that Spike was back to Giles as soon as he returned to England, and that would have doubled his reasons for keeping any such information from Buffy. Giles at the least distrusted, and at the most hated both vampires, and more than anything else he wanted to keep them away from Buffy "for her own good," which seems to be a motivation greatly overused in the Buffyverse. Someone is ALWAYS trying to protect someone else from some unpleasant situation, whether real of imagined, and it almost always ends up doing more harm than good.

So, anyhow, back to the question: Giles refused to help because he distrusted Wolfram and Hart, and had a thorough disliking of Angel and Spike. Willow didn't help simply because she never was informed of the situation. If she had known, considering the almost instant way she and Fred hit it off, she would have, literally, been there in a flash.

[palabravampiress]

^ Yeah. I think Willow and Buffy would have helped Fred.

Basically, I agree with WA, but I'm a little softer on my interpretation of Giles' motives. I think Giles was distrustful of Angel's alliance with W&H, and because he didn't want to get his people entrenched in that sort of corruption, refused further contact -- even for a presumably good cause (not that resurrection-type things are exactly popular with the former Sunnydale crowd anymore; that alone may have made Giles nervous). I'm sure Giles' personal feelings were involved, too. In fact, he may have even suspected that Angel went evil again. I mean, not only was Angel heading up Hell Inc. at the time, but he had also voluntarily brought Angelus out for a few weeks and was consorting with and being courted by the members of the Black Thorn. Even within the show itself, Angel needed Cordy to come get him back on track and re-focus him on the mission. From a distance, it probably all added up to a pretty strong case for evil -- especially when viewed by one of Angelus' former victims, who is probably still rather bitter about the whole torture thing. If I were Giles, I might have thought it was one of Angelus' tricks, too, and refused further communication.

Of course, if he was Angelus, Giles should have told Buffy so that she could go slay him. Any way you slice it, Giles did mishandle the situation.

[Kemy]

Because Fred and Illryia are a strange fusion of one another due to the nature of Illyria's resurrection. It may not be possible to truly and completely separate the two of them now. With Fred's Soul gone, Illyria's powers drained but Fred's body and mind fused with Illyria's shell and mind, they might even be interdependent, not enough left of both of them to exist on their own again.

[Ripper 08]

i thought fred's soul was destroyed when illyria took over her body meaning that there was no more fred to resurect.with this in mind no soul means there is nothing to put back into the body the person is truely dead and gone forever

[LifeIsJustThis]

This makes sense now...

[charmingslayer]

Wait so Fred's totally dead with no soul in a hell or good dimension?

[Kemy]

Wow, it amazes me how many times we've been shown in the Buffyverse people living on without their Souls and it still hasn't got to some people.

Fred's Soul was consumed but Illyria even stated that Fred's mind still existed within hers. She was even able to allow Fred's personality, memory and appearance to surface to show to her parents.

I thought she even reached out to Wesley in that dream sequence letting him know she was still in there somewhere.

I won't spoil After the Fall for everyone but Fred is still around, she didn't cease to exist, its just a weird co-habitation. But because of that new symbiotic relationship it 'might' not be possible separate them, but knowing the magics of the Buffyverse we might still see Fred back again yet.

[Dlou444]

I'm not sure about where exactly Fred's soul IS supposed to be. I know they talk about it, but I always assumed that by "consumed" they meant onto heaven like all other good people and puppies go.

Still, I think it would have been a bit tricky to bring her back with Illyria in there. I mean, 1.) Illyria hardened all her organs and stuff. and 2.) You'd have to get rid of Illyria first or you'd have some WONKY multiple personality things going on in there.
Hmmmmm.....
You know, I'm just gonna go read my comics and hush now

[Kemy]

I'm not sure about where exactly Fred's soul IS supposed to be. I know they talk about it, but I always assumed that by "consumed" they meant onto heaven like all other good people and puppies go.

Still, I think it would have been a bit tricky to bring her back with Illyria in there. I mean, 1.) Illyria hardened all her organs and stuff. and 2.) You'd have to get rid of Illyria first or you'd have some WONKY multiple personality things going on in there.
Hmmmmm.....
You know, I'm just gonna go read my comics and hush now

Her skin and flesh were hardened into an incredibly hard shell, which probably consumed some of the organic material from her body.

But they said her organs and internals were liquefying, but she never excreted anything so the virus must have converted it all into basic organic material which formed into new organs needed to allow Illyria to exist within the shell and continue to function.

Her body is now quite different, and internally reconfigured, she can't come back in her own body.

[littlewilly]

Wow, it amazes me how many times we've been shown in the Buffyverse people living on without their Souls and it still hasn't got to some people.


What person in the buffyverse has ever lived on without a soul??? i cant think of any. Obviously Vampires dont count, so who?

As far as i was aware, Freds soul is gone for good, thats the last we heard about it. Wes said its been destroyed or something so, goodbye Fred, she is no more.