View Full Version : Halfrek & Cecily - The Same Entity?


Carrrrgh
03-10-2011, 11:55 AM
We got this discussion going a little bit in another thread, but it was off topic and im still curious of your opinions on the matter. There is some evidence that suggests Cecily was acually just a cover for Halfrek, being a vengence demon and all, making them the same person.

Heres a little of how it got started:


Carrr4288:
I was under the impression that Cecily was a vengeance demon and was in the process of vengeance that night we saw her at the party.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that she was the vengeance demon and that all those people died later that night? Idk I'll try to find it

Edit: I found this on Wikipedia. This isn't what I read before but it pretty much says the same thing.

"In the season 6 episode "Older and Far Away", Halfrek recognizes Spike and calls him by his human name, William. Spike also recognizes Halfrek, but when asked to explain this they both sheepishly deny being acquainted. This implies that Halfrek had previously been Cecily. However, Halfrek once told Anya that she witnessed the Crimean War (circa 1853). The timing of this event would indicate that Halfrek existed as a demon at least three decades prior to the adoption of youthful human form in Cecily. Joss Whedon and Kali Rocha have both made statements that Halfrek and Cecily were indeed the same entity.[citation needed]

Halfrek later appeared in the comic Spike: Old Times, which established that she was 'on a job' at the time that William fell for Cecily. The night William became a vampire, she caused the deaths of the rude party-goers who had laughed at William's poetry."



Lyri:
It was a comic...based on Halfreck and Spike meeting sometime before she was killed in S7. I have it somewhere, just can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.

But as we all know, the comics before S8, aside from 'Origin' and 'Tales of the Slayer/Vampire' aren't considered canon, so we still don't have a definite answer.



Scobro:
The problem was that (I believe it was) Drew Goddard that said Cecily became Halfrek. But then the timelines were different. So then they made Cecily a vengeance demon herself. But I thought it was mentioned of implied that she was, ya know, someone of money and everyone knew her, etc. Not like she suddenly appeared out of thin air.



Lyri:
But at that time, wasn't it, you know, common for wealthy families to just breeze in outta nowhere and become the talk of the town? Just because she was rich and everyone knew her didn't mean that she had to be in town for more than a year. And maybe she just found a lot of vengeance that needed to be handed out in that town, lol.

You say the timeline doesn't fit, if Goddard said she BECAME a vengeance demon after William, but does Anya ever mention that she knew Halfreck prior to 1905? We know they were together then, but I don't know if there's ever a canoncial mention of Halfreck being older than Cecily would have been in 1880. I know I said she might have been a demon when she met William, but I've got no proof only a comic that might or might not be canon.


Thats pretty much where it left off. So whats your opinion? Are Cecily and Halfrek the same person?

HisMrs
03-10-2011, 11:57 AM
We've discussed this before, and I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that Halfrek and Cicily are the same person. I thought in "Older and Far Away" when she calls him William, it pretty much confirms it.

Scobro
03-10-2011, 11:59 AM
Season 7, episode Lessons proves that Halfrek was around before Cecily, yet (a) writer and the actor both said that Cecily turned into Halfrek. Casting the same actor was just something Joss did. Look at Woodward (?) are you going to say he was the same person just because he was in three different continuities? Even if you throw out Firefly, there is still Angel which is in the same verse. Then what about Tom Lenk? He went from vampire to nerd. There was really no debate on that either.

I think there was nothing to it but them having a bit of fun acknowledging they recycle actors.

xaphania
03-10-2011, 12:05 PM
Yeah, I've never had any doubt that they're the same person.

The quick nod in 'Older and Far Away' indicates this, and the lack of continuity with Selfless can be easily explained away.

Scobro
03-10-2011, 12:07 PM
I just think if it were meant to be the same person/demon more would have been done with it.

Lyri
03-10-2011, 02:07 PM
The fact that specifically had that line in 'Older and Far Away' proves to me that they're the same person. If they're not, what would be the point of having her recognize Spike as William?

Zeppo
03-10-2011, 02:18 PM
The fact that specifically had that line in 'Older and Far Away' proves to me that they're the same person. If they're not, what would be the point of having her recognize Spike as William?

The point would be to have a jab at viewers who recognized her as Cecily. It was just a joke, a wink to the audience, but looking internally from the characters world she probably was the same person.

Ex: On The OC, Amanda Reghetti (who at the time was also filming the TV show North Shore) returned as her character Hailey for a funeral. She asks another character - her ex, Jimmy - how he`s been enjoying Hawaii:

Jimmy: It's fantastic. You would not believe the North Shore.
Hailey: So I've heard. ...

It`s just a jab. But to make sense of it, yes they were the same.

xaphania
03-10-2011, 02:33 PM
But with the Spike tie-in comic about Halfrek and William, surely that adds a little more credence to the idea that Halfrek and Cecily are the same person?

I know those comics aren't canon but weren't they written with approval from the PTB?

Zeppo
03-10-2011, 02:43 PM
But with the Spike tie-in comic about Halfrek and William, surely that adds a little more credence to the idea that Halfrek and Cecily are the same person?

I know those comics aren't canon but weren't they written with approval from the PTB?

That's up to you. They approve the story outlines, yes. TBH, on first viewing, I didn't know what that little exchange meant as I didn't recognize her as anything but Halfrek so I figured there was gonna be a story that evolved between them but nah.

Take it as you will. I'm sure one could write a comic book to suggest Halfrek and Spike had a history, seperate from Cecily.

But honestly, it was just a wink that die-hards took as a clue to something and ran with it. Love it when writer's make fun of their show.

Scobro
03-10-2011, 02:58 PM
The fact that specifically had that line in 'Older and Far Away' proves to me that they're the same person. If they're not, what would be the point of having her recognize Spike as William?

It's no different than all of the Firefly references which take place on Castle.

Lyri
03-10-2011, 03:03 PM
It's one character recognizing another character within the same verse. It is not Nathan Fillion's character dressing up a Captain Mal. It's completely different.

HisMrs
03-10-2011, 03:59 PM
It's no different than all of the Firefly references which take place on Castle.

Huh?? I don't see how you think it's the same... The "Firefly" jokes are on a totally different show, so that's what they are: jokes. The "Older and Far Away" line is in the same show, so it clearly proves that the writers want us to know that Cecily and Halfrek are the same person.

prophecygrrl
03-10-2011, 05:48 PM
I think it was meant to be a bit of a self-referential joke, but it wasn't originally intended for Halfrek and Cecily to be the same person. I read a meta a while ago that included some background info on what happened with casting:

http://eleusis-walks.livejournal.com/47889.html#cutid1

Like many of the best things about this show (Spike not dying midway through S2, AtS existing at all, Anya appearing in more than one episode), the genius that is Spike and Halfrek was a complete accident. Kali Rocha came in to read for the part of Halfrek, and the producers liked her best. They weren't sure anyone would recognize her as Cecily from 5.07 "Fool For Love", especially in the thick vengeance demon make-up, so they went with it -- they've done this before, with Brian Thompson playing The Master's apostle Luke (1.01-1.02 "Welcome To The Hellmouth/The Harvest") and The Judge (2.13-2.14 "Surprise"/"Innocence"), Jeff Kober playing Zachary Kralik (3.12 "Helpless") and Rack (various S6 episodes), and Tom Lenk playing a vampire henchman (5.02 "Real Me") in addition to his recurring role as Andrew Wells. But once they had the dual-cast actress, they just couldn't help themselves from making a cheeky reference. As Jane Espenson said: "She came in and auditioned [along with other actresses], but when she had the role... we made a decision to play with that" (from a Succubus Club interview, May 22, 2002).

The rest of the meta is just excellent, if you want to go ahead and read it. :D

Lyri
03-10-2011, 05:58 PM
But by 'playing with it' they brought it into canon, and made it a part of the verse. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that they are the same character, and no one will convince me otherwise. If they didn't want the fans to think Spike and Halfreck had some sort of connection, they never would have brought it into the text.

People like The Judge/Luke, Kralik/Rack, Holden/Knox, it's obvious that there is NO WAY they could EVER be the same person. But with something like this, it's nice, I think, to allow the characters to be connected and allow us to feel like we're right for once, lol.

HisMrs
03-10-2011, 06:03 PM
But by 'playing with it' they brought it into canon, and made it a part of the verse. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that they are the same character, and no one will convince me otherwise. If they didn't want the fans to think Spike and Halfreck had some sort of connection, they never would have brought it into the text.


EXACTLY. This.... a million times. Why would they have even had that line in the script if they didn't want fans to make the connection?? I just do not buy that they were doing it as a joke.

Scobro
03-10-2011, 06:04 PM
no one will convince me otherwise.
Dear, I have numerous instruments of torture... thats just like a challenge to me. I will send thee to the rack until you refute your beliefs! You think the merrick dungeon is bad.... you just wait.

Lyri
03-10-2011, 06:07 PM
Honey, let me tell you, I can withstand an immense amount torture. I live in excruciating agony every single day of my life. There is nothing worse than that that you could do to me.

Carrrrgh
03-10-2011, 06:11 PM
But by 'playing with it' they brought it into canon, and made it a part of the verse. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that they are the same character, and no one will convince me otherwise. If they didn't want the fans to think Spike and Halfreck had some sort of connection, they never would have brought it into the text.

I concur.

The first time I heard the line in Older and Far Away, I thought she was a vengeance demon and the last time I heard that line, I knew she and Cecily were the same :-)

I like you Lyri, yes very much. You are great I always love hearing your opinion. There is NO way I believe that that line was a "Joke" or a "Throwaway line" NO WAY!! :-)

prophecygrrl
03-10-2011, 06:26 PM
But by 'playing with it' they brought it into canon, and made it a part of the verse. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that they are the same character, and no one will convince me otherwise. If they didn't want the fans to think Spike and Halfreck had some sort of connection, they never would have brought it into the text.

People like The Judge/Luke, Kralik/Rack, Holden/Knox, it's obvious that there is NO WAY they could EVER be the same person. But with something like this, it's nice, I think, to allow the characters to be connected and allow us to feel like we're right for once, lol.

I totally agree that they're the same character. The writers did intend it as a cheeky joke (they even explicitly said so), but it still makes Halfrek and Cecily the same character. It's canon, period.

What's interesting is that I think the writers really screwed some things up with this. They made Cecily and Halfrek the same character, but they were never willing to explore the repercussions of this. In the meta I linked to, the author talks about the lost opportunity here, and that in actuality having Halfrek as Cecily retcons some important things. The meta author, for example, makes the point that in establishing Halfrek as Cecily, it completely changes the context of her rejection of William in 'Fool For Love'. If the writers really explored this, it could've been brilliant in regard to Spike's character arc:

This is some of the best philosophical shit they could have thrown at us. This pulls the rug out from under Spike's arc so profoundly in a way that really comments -- brilliantly -- on the way he builds and rebuilds himself constantly in opposition to the solipsized muses he creates out of objectified women. Cecily literally wasn't real. The fact that Halfrek and Spike never have a conversation in the entire run of the series is among the most profound missed opportunities around, and there are plenty of those in the later seasons.

It's probably just me, but I'm totally with the meta author on this, lol. Cecily and Halfrek are the same character, and though it started as a joke, it affects things more than the writers intended.

Lyri
03-10-2011, 06:30 PM
I definitely agree with that. I would have loved to have explored that, and find out just what Spike would have done if he'd found out that Cecily was nothing but a fantasy created by a demon in the hopes of wreaking some vengeance. It would have changed the whole dynamic of Spike and a character.

Kean
03-10-2011, 06:51 PM
Honey, let me tell you, I can withstand an immense amount torture. I live in excruciating agony every single day of my life. There is nothing worse than that that you could do to me.

He could always chase you with a penguin. Or, get a box and write penguin on it. :p

Lyri
03-10-2011, 06:55 PM
He could always chase you with a penguin. Or, get a box and write penguin on it. :p

Thanks for that. That's completely awesome, you blabbing my irrational phobia all over the boards. I had a SHRED of dignity left after that whole 'Lyri who couldn't say no' thing, and now you've taken it away with a single post.

I'll be over here, mourning my tattered reputation.


:p

Kean
03-10-2011, 06:59 PM
Thanks for that. That's completely awesome, you blabbing my irrational phobia all over the boards. I had a SHRED of dignity left after that whole 'Lyri who couldn't say no' thing, and now you've taken it away with a single post.

I'll be over here, mourning my tattered reputation.


:p

Yeah, because you being terrified of penguins is something you've kept hush hush round here.

And don't fool yourself about your rep, darlin', we all know the truth. :p

Lyri
03-10-2011, 07:02 PM
Only Merrickans knew!! Right?

Eh, whatever. I'm scared of penguins. Laugh it up. *grumbles* It's definitely out now!

Scobro
03-10-2011, 07:57 PM
There is nothing worse than that that you could do to me.
You have never heard me sing.
EDIT: yes, I had to go there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-9QjLZk-E&playnext=1&list=PLB023FD91BC923202