The PTB. What Are They?

What exactly do we know about the Powers that Be anyway?

Here's what I have so far.

* To my knowledge they're not mentioned in BTVS with the possible exception of Whistler, but he grabs Angel outside of Sunnydale.

* They're not mentioned as having anything to do with the Slayer origin in Fray or Get it Done.

* They have confederates on earth that either work their will, or observe. (Whistler, Doyle, The Oracles, possibly Angel.

* Jasmine claims to have been one.

JASMINE
Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. (grabs Angel's face) Thanks to you, *this frail, little Power That Was* has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands.

* If Jasmine is telling the truth it suggests the PTB cannot manifest themselves easily in this reality.

* If Jasmine is telling the truth the PTB have existed since the dawn of creation.

Jasmine reaches for Angel, but he grabs the end of the power line and electrocutes Jasmine with the live end. The electricity sends her back a few feet, but doesn't hurt her. She walks back toward Angel.

JASMINE
I was forged in the inferno of creation, vampire. Do you really think a little electricity would destroy me?

* If Jasmine is telling the truth, the origin of the PTB's connection to this reality went something like this:

From Shiny Happy People

WOMAN
Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.

GUNN
You're a power that... was?

WOMAN
But then something new emerged from deep inside the earth neither demon, nor God.

WESLEY
Man.

WOMAN
And it seemed, for a time, that through this new race, a balance might be restored.

FRED
Guess we really let you down.

WOMAN
But you didn't. It was we who failed you. (stands) We became little more than observers.

This suggests there were originally 2 groups of PTB; the malevolent who remained on earth, and those who resisted that left.

We know from Fray that the Old Ones were banished from this reality. Were those the malevolent PTB. One would suppose, but it's not really said. If that's the case, would Illyria be one of the original PTB?

* The PTB from Jasmine's group who first left this reality appear to be amoral - neither what we would call good, nor what we call evil.

Supernatural occurences that might fall into the realm of "good", are never directly attributable to the PTB. I'm thinking of stuff like the snow in Amends, Buffy arising after being struck down stronger than before in Prophecy Girl and Chosen. Angel being able to enter Kate Lockley's apartment without an invitation to save her.

Jasmine has some stuff to say on the absence of moral position in the PTB:

From Peace Out

JASMINE
No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.

*

JASMINE
Maybe you're right. Maybe I can still make this world a better place. (punches Angel across the street) One body at a time. I loved this world. I sacrificed everything I was to be with you.

ANGEL
So you could rule us?

JASMINE
Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart. Shame now I gotta rip it out.

OK so the conclusions I'm going draw from all this is as follows. The PTB have existed since the dawn of creation. There are 2 groups we know about. One malevolent, and the other amoral. There may be a third group we don't know about that would be what we think of as good. It's also possible the influence of supernatural force of good in this reality might be something else entirely.

The amoral group of the PTB is the one we know is maneuvering Angel. The good group if it exists might also have shown an interest in Angel.

The good group if it exists might have shown an interest in Buffy in Prophecy girl, and Chosen.

The amoral group cannot directly influence this reality, without going to the considerable trouble of manifesting, or working through confederates.

There is no evidence of the PTB having any influence on the slayer line.

Well being monotheistic, I decided to interpert the PTB as powerful heavenly beings that are ultimatley ruled by one powereful being, the Lord. This interpertation makes this part of the show more enjoyable to me because my religion is intermingling with show.

Were there not two groups that fought the Old Ones away?

I think these two groups banished the majority of the Old Ones (while others remained dormant in the Deeper Well) and then they themselves fought.

One probably good, one probably evil.

It seems that there are lots of evil forces in the Buffyverse that compete with other forces of darkness, i.e. The Senior Partners and the First Evil.

I do not know if the Old Ones were evil, they may have even preceded such a thing. Though I wonder if the First Evil had anything to do with them. Because the scythe is a weapon that allows the Slayer to take down even Old Ones and the First Evil was pretty intent about the Slayer not grasping such a tool.

So who knows if the Powers originated from one of those two groups. But as Anya said sometimes beings overexaggerate their power. Plus factoring in some of the Christian themes in the Buffyverse, you can not really tell.

I think that something did have an interest in Buffy, bringing her back three times and such, but who knows if it was the PTB.

Although Angel seems to have a direct connection to them.

It was the PTB that made it snow in "Amends", wasn't it? Otherwise I can't think of any direct intervention by them in BtVS and that one served to keep Angel alive. Perhaps they were only interested in Buffy insofar as she was such an influence on Angel...

Two things I can't seem yet to differentiate in the Buffyverse are fate/destiny and the PTB.

Was it destiny that caused Buffy to have to Scoobies as friends, they were an important part in keeping her alive or did the Powers that Be have some influence in bringing Buffy back?

It seems like she wouldn't have been given the caring watcher, or the insightful Xander and witchy Willow by chance. Those people were brought together to help her in her fight against vampires, demons and the forces of darkness.

Because destiny is predefined but does destiny go hand in hand with free will? From Skip on Angel we know that the Powers that Be control the lives of many.

So it is a possibility that the Powers that Be brought Buffy back and made it snow in Amends.

Maybe Angel was given so much attention, direction connections and help from the Powers that Be because he needed it more. Buffy is stronger, faster and a better fighter than he is, not to mention that she has the gift of the Slayer prophecies. And Angel did receive help in the forms of visions. Who knows if the Slayer visions aren't directly from the Powers that Be. Because the Slayer does work for the same common good as they do.

Interesting thing noted previously is that the with the exception of Whistler, the Powers that Be have never really been referenced on Buffy. Maybe the Powers that Be are focusing on the forces of Wolfram & Hart?

Mr.Pointy said:

Perhaps they were only interested in Buffy insofar as she was such an influence on Angel...

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I'm really going to have to disagree with you on this.

Buffy has played such a key role in the survival of this world, I can't think why the would not really care for her that much. From what we learned in Fray and even the events in Buffy, especially Chosen, we know that Buffy has a huge impact on the world. So could they really care less about one of the greatest champions for good?

Unless the PTB have some disagreements with the Slayer or they just do not interfere with her problems. Maybe that was what the Guardians were for...

Slayer said:

Maybe Angel was given so much attention, direction connections and help from the Powers that Be because he needed it more. Buffy is stronger, faster and a better fighter than he is, not to mention that she has the gift of the Slayer prophecies. And Angel did receive help in the forms of visions. Who knows if the Slayer visions aren't directly from the Powers that Be. Because the Slayer does work for the same common good as they do.

Click to expand...

I think you may just have something there...

Slayer said:

Unless the PTB have some disagreements with the Slayer or they just do not interfere with her problems. Maybe that was what the Guardians were for...

Click to expand...

Again, I think you could be right with that...perhaps there are two otherworldly forces for good/the light, working towards the same end but from different angles...

Mr. Pointy said:

It was the PTB that made it snow in "Amends", wasn't it?

Click to expand...

Where does it say that?

Here's the problem the way I see it. Most of us tend to come to the series with a kind of Judeo/Christian good vs evil mindset.

When they tell us Angel is a champion, and he works for the Powers that Be, we automatically leap to the assumption that the PTB are Good, and responsible for any otherworldly force of goodness that appears to be acting on the heroes.

The problem is, that isn't what the series tells us. It tells us the PTB are neither Good nor evil, that they are not directly connected to this reality, and are more observers. In order to manifest in this reality, they have to go to great trouble, as Jasmine did.

There does appear to be something that does have the power to immediately affect this reality though. It appears to be what we would call good. When Buffy dies and is brought back in Prophecy Girl, she comes back immediately stronger than before. The same thing happens in Chosen when she arises from a seemingly fatal blow. This contradicts what we would expect to happen based on the rules of this reality. Something had to have intervened.

The rules of this reality tell us a vampire cannot enter a residence without an invitation, yet when Kate Lockley attempts to commit suicide Angel can enter her apartment without an invitation to save her. Again one has to assume supernatural intervention.

It's never stated that the PTB are responsible for this kind of stuff. It's suggested that they don't even have that kind of power, nor are they interested enough to use it, even if they did.

Again, I put forward the possibility of a 3rd power.

Evil - Malevolent forces.
The amoral balance between good and evil - The PTB.
Good - The 3rd Power.

Nerd4hire, that is a very nice gathering of information concerning the Powers that Be. With the exception of just a couple of points in your conclusions i would have to go along with pretty much all of the original post.

As for the origins mentioned in the following quote from Jasmine...

"Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful."

... i would have to assume a slightly different theory. What i gathered from this was that there was a time where a single race existed on earth, the great beings that were mentioned. Over time some of their number were corrupted by the machinations of The First Evil. This was the origin of demonkind. It does stand to reason that these may in fact have been the Old Ones and that Illyria may actually be related to the PTB in the sense that she shared a common origin with them. The "great beings" that were strong enough to resist the influence of The First chose to avoid this corruption by separating themselves permanently from this plane altogether. This left the earth in the control of evil. Over the following millennia however the PTB chose to watch over their original home and eventually became aware of a new race's existence, that being humanity. For the first time since they left earth behind it appeared that there was a chance to reclaim the balance between good and evil that had been lost by using us as instruments of their will.

Now the possibility is that the PTB could have been involved in mankind's victory and banishment of the demons on earth. It does seem unlikely that man could have done it on it's own. Since that time they have sought not to dominate the earth or turn it over to the side of good entirely, they are wise enough to know that would be no more correct than allowing evil to hold dominion. All they want to do is establish and maintain the balance.

Personally i cannot take Jasmine's opinion of the other Powers too seriously. I absolutely believe she was an ex Power but she clearly had a different idea about how best they should be protecting humanity to the rest of them. They choose to keep a safe distance and maintain balance whilst Jasmine wanted to get involved and create a paradise on earth. Because of this she is bound to not have a high opinion of the other PTB's game plan. Just because she thinks differently however doesn't mean that her idea is correct.

To me the Powers do what is best for us, they interfere in our lives and society as little as possible and only ever when they absolutely need to in order to maintain the balance of good and evil that they see as being essential to our existence.