First of all, Spike is my favorite character (Buffy is second), so I'm not one of the fans who can explain the Spike hate. But on the other hand, as a Spike fan, I want to try to answer to the Spike hate because I know where I disagree
😉 And the post of
Taaroko (page 10) is the perfect opportunity to do this, because you put in words very well your reasons and I want to explain why I see it differently and why I strongly disagree, point by point. Of course, this is just my opinion, and I just want to show another way of seeing it.
And before to beggin, I want to remind that English isn't my maternal language, so I apologize for all the awful mistakes I will do in this post. But I hope that my arguments will be enough coherent and understandable
😱 (and I hope too that I translated/ understood your words in the right way, lol).
Spike is a jerk, with or without his soul. And considering how intuitive he seems to be, there's no excuse for it. His insensitive remarks aren't made carelessly like Cordelia's or cluelessly like Anya's, they're deliberate. He phrases his comments in a blunt and insulting way, even when the point he makes with them is insightful (or perhaps especially then). This may be entertaining, but that's only from the perspective of an audience member. To the other characters (who, unlike Spike, are the actual protagonists), it isn't so funny, and I'm surprised they were all able to take his crap for so long without staking him. The endearing moments weren't enough to make up for it and generally made everything else seem worse by comparison. Also, does he ever treat anyone he's meeting for the first time in a non-hostile fashion? I can't recall a single time that he didn't open with hostility.
First point of disagreement. I think it came from a different perspective and way of interpret it, but to me, we have to go to the beggining. Spike, as William, and as a young vampire, wasn't that much sarcastic or wasn't doing as many sarcastic comments. He was sweet, respectful, and attentionate.
What did he gets in return ? Mockery, indifference, laughter.
The way Spike is acting now came with time, during all these years with Drusilla, Angelus and Darla. Spike was still able to love his mother after he turned into a vampire. But, as we see in
Lies my parents told me, his mother wasn't. He was hurt and jealous when Angelus slept with Drusilla, Angelus mocked him for his weakness.
What I'm trying to say is : Spike built a carapace through the years. He tries to play a role. This is not really wickedness, it actually is a protection. An apparence and protection he built for a long, long time. This is the way he acts, because he has been hurt a LOT of time when he opened himself to people as a sensitive and romantic guy. What did you expect ? The way he is now is perfectly and totally logical in my opinion.
By the time of Sunnydale, this "˜weakness', his feelings, are shown with
people he trusts. Like Buffy in "End of days" or "Afterlife". This is how it works for him now. And this is always his sensitive point.
His way of acting and being in contact with people is just marked by his emotional bagage. And I love him for that.
He's not a bad guy, people just have to go through the surface for knowing him. Like Buffy did. Like Dawn did. Like Fred did. It's just his way of being, because of his story. And I really like it.
At the same time that the snark starts really getting old for me (season five), other aspects of Spike's behavior start to seriously freak me out. His "love" (and I use sarcastic quote marks) for Buffy manifests in sabotaging her relationship with Riley (not that I was sorry to see it end) and several varieties of intensely creepy stalking. And while I'm on that subject, since someone else brought it up and I don't want to let it go unaddressed, I don't think his stalking compares at all to whatever Angel(us) did. Angelus was stalking her as a predator stalks his prey for the purpose of messing with her head, and Angel's "lurking" was out of a desire to make sure she was okay and, occasionally, to pass information to her. Spike, on the other hand, goes sneaking around nicking her knickers, making a creepy shrine, and using Harmony to indulge in creepy fantasies (I can't stand Harmony either, but I still felt awful for her during those scenes). And then he surpasses all previously known definitions of creepy by threatening Warren into making a robot version of her, and having sex with it. I cannot express my horrified disgust strongly enough.
Here again, I disagree (and I agree on some levels). I have to clarify briefly how I see Spike during this period of the show. To me, this a vampire who's able to love, but who is stuck between two parts of him. A demon part and an human part. He doesn't get everything who makes a human. But he has a lot of differences with the other demons. Spike is stuck between two worlds, and he doesn't find a place. He doesn't fit anywhere.
At the beggining, he started killing slayers in order to impress Drusilla. Here again, love was a motivation. He chose his way because of this. When he discovered his feelings for Buffy, he was able to make everything for her. But at the beggining of season 5, it wasn't an healthy way of loving. It was more obsessive and a very "˜vampire' way of loving, more selfish. But the more time passes, the more he discovers that his feelings are real, sincere and more than just selfish.
Because of his love for Buffy, he begins slowly to change himself, almost in despite of his will. All what he's doing can seem selfish and disgusting at the beggining, and I understand that, but I strongly and firmly believe that everyone is entitled to a second chance.
What I love about Spike is : he does a lot of mistakes, but he learns from these mistakes (not every character could pretend the same"¦).
Intervention was an HUGE turning point for his character, and for his relationship with Buffy. He does something real, altruistic. He didn't want to bring a pain to the person he loves. It is anything but selfish. At this point, Buffy and each fan know that it's more than just an obsession, but actually a real love.
He didn't always act in the right way (it wasn't his role to open Buffy's eyes for Riley's fate, but this secret should be say anyway), but he evolves with time. He changes, and came to a point where he's lost between these two parts of himself I was talking about.
My favorites lines who express better what I'm trying to say :
SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared)
I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her)
That's what I do. I kill.
(Smashed, 6x09)
Okay, when you read this, don't you have the impression that he tries to convince himself ? I love Drew Z. Greenberg comment of the episode. Basically, he was saying that this scene generates one question : does he want to bite her ? Or to convince himself that he wants to bite her ? At this point, is he good or bad ? He doesn't know it himself. He tries to bite the girl because he thinks the chip doesn't work, and he wants to prove to Buffy and to himself that he can still be someone. Good, bad, whatever, he wants an identity. Because, let's face it, he's not a vampire anymore. And he's not a human. Where did he belong ?
Changes are strongly rooted in him. There's no way to go back.
Later, again in Smashed :
SPIKE: Oh, poor little lost girl. She doesn't fit in anywhere. She's got no one to love.
BUFFY: Me? I'm lost ? Look at you, you idiot ! Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in ?
Season 6 is a lot about Buffy's depression, but Spike was as much lost as she was. But Buffy is the heroine, so they have more insisted on her case. That's a part of the reasons why they find each other and felt connected (on this point).
Again, we find this duality in
Seeing Red. The attempted rape is absolutely awful, but it shows again this contrast good/bad in Spike. The human part in him is completely in love with her, but the demon part doesn't see the limits.
The human part was in love with Buffy and pushed him to do beautiful things, like looking after Dawn, helping her friends during 5 months, and trying to do his better for her. But the demon part is still here, somewhere, and even if his evolution permits to him to be better, trying to fight his nature, he's still a vampire on a lot of aspects. Marti Noxon said it very well :
He sort of represents Buffy's other side. He's her id. He's hang dog because he loves Buffy, and he's not been getting his way. But in some ways I think he's the most powerful. And he's constantly struggling with his nature, which is also a part of Buffy's character arc. So, to me, he is heroic in the Buffy universe, because he's right there representing what the show's about, which is the struggle to be a hero and the other part of you that wants to drag ya on down into the abyss. -- Marti Noxon (Metro, 9-02)
A part of him tries to be an hero, and the other part of him wants to drag him into the abyss.
When Spike came in the bathroom in
Seeing Red, initially, he came to apologize to her. He talks to her about feelings and love. It was a desperate action. And we know that he's sincere.
But he still doesn't get where are the limits. When he came back to his crypt, AGAIN, we see this duality. Spike realizes what he has done. He's angry at him, he feels culpability and remorses (and it's really not common for a soulless vampire). He doesn't support the idea of what he has done to the woman he loves. This ? It's the human part of him who blames the demon part of him.
And there, exactly, at this moment, he decides to make a choice. He goes to recover his soul. Recover his humanity. He goes in Africa for destroying the demon part in him ; the demon part who pushes him to cross the boundary and to hurt the woman he loves. No duality anymore. With this soul, he has an indentity. He just... makes a choice. And it's just amazing from a soulless vampire.
That's why I don't understand fans who think that he goes in Africa for remove the chip. It's *really* a nonsense to me, when we look at his journey.
So, back to your post and the quote, about the Buffybot and all what you're qualifying like "˜disgusting things' : I understand, but I don't see it in the same way than you. Because Spike changes with time, and the more he loves Buffy, the less this "˜disgusting' attitudes are present (more specifically after
Intervention). Even if he keeps to do mistakes (trying to keep her in the dark, get rid Katrina's body"¦). He learns, he does mistakes, he fell, and he learns again. That's life, and we CAN'T expect perfection from a soulless vampire who tries to change in better.
He TRIES. That's an amazing thing.
Judging on the bad is always easier"¦
...No thanks to Spike. He takes advantage of her alienation from her friends and her fear that she came back wrong to drag her into the darkness with him, because he knows he can only get at her when she's alone and vulnerable. All while calling it love. Last season he tried to make her admit to some tiny speck of feelings for him by threatening to sic Drusilla on her if she didn't. This season he tries to convince her that having sex with him means she loves him. He doesn't care if she hates herself, so long as she loves him. If she *has* to hate herself in order to love him, that works too. And he can't accept that she doesn't. He doesn't want her to be happy, he wants her to be *his*. Once again, he's soulless, so it's not like it would be logical to expect better of him, but it's still appalling, especially when he claims to have changed.
Word to my precedent comment, he's as much lost as Buffy is. He has proven a lot of times that he wanted her to be happy even if it means that he has to suffer or die (and he's glad to see her happy in
Hell's Bells), but when it came to their relationship in season 6, it was a spiral. Bad emotional context. Spike isn't perfect. Like Buffy isn't. Like Willow isn't. Like Xander isn't. Too bad. Move on.
Then comes the soul quest. I don't believe for a second that he wants to get his soul back because he feels remorse, because you *can't* feel remorse without a soul, dangit! What I do believe is that he feels frustrated to his wit's end that nothing he tries with Buffy works and all he's succeeded in doing is making her hate him and possibly even be willing to kill him at last, but he does know that having a soul worked for Angel (and continued to do so even after a period of soullessness), so he thinks that it must therefore also work for him (never considering that there may have been many other things about Angel that worked for him apart from the mere fact of soulfulness). He still wants to force Buffy to love him, but now he knows that he's crossed a line, and the only way to get around that is to get a soul. He knows she won't hold him responsible for what he just did anymore if he has one.
At the beggining, I didn't even want to answer to this because it makes me totally"¦ huh ?! I can't express enough how much it makes me perplex to read something like this, because I don't even *understand* how anyone can seriously think a second about this hypothesis.
"Oh, Buffy doesn't want me anymore because of what I've done. Too bad. I will get my soul because, hey, it works for Angel ! Maybe it will work for me !"
Please.
Spike's journey was PERFECTLY logical since a long time. He's lost between two worlds.
SPIKE : It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.
(Seeing Red, 6x19)
Like I was saying previously, Spike wants an identity. The attempted rape has been an electroshock, because he tried to change, but his demon part bring him back to his most terrible mistakes. And he doesn't want it anymore. He has hurt the woman he loves ; there's not better motivation.
When Spike goes to Africa, he's looking for an identity.
And on this point :
because you *can't* feel remorse without a soul
And the flashbacks ? And his anger ? It was put here just like that ?
And what do you think of a vampire who prefer to die rather than hurt the person he loves by saying to a crazy Godess about the key ? What do you think about a vampire who cries (more than anybody else) after the death of the woman he loves? And who keeps crying during 5 months ? And who dreams every night that he saved her ? And who counted every day since her death ? And who keeps his promise whereas he has nothing to earn in return ?
Spike has done a lot of mistakes. He's not perfect. But he has done a lot of good stuff too. He tries to be better and he failed sometimes.
But he tried.
The entire series of attempts to force Buffy to love him or to admit that she loves him is strongly reminiscent of his attempts to do the same to Drusilla in the earlier seasons, with *forcing* the woman in question to feel something they don't necessarily feel being the recurring theme. Why he expected it to work on a Slayer who has hated him for years when it didn't work on a crazy soulless vampire who'd already been with him for over a century, I will never understand.
I don't really like the Spike & Dru relationship, so I have to say that I pretty much don't care about it. But there's something I want to make clear. He has tried to manipulate Dru's feelings by a a potion in season 3. That's not True Love to me, because he's ready to accept Drusilla with a lobotomized brain. Like if he wasn't loving her for who she is. That was a very vampire way of loving at this point.
Spike is maybe insistent with Buffy, because he felt something strong when he was with her. During all the beggining of the season, it's Buffy who comes to him and makes confidences to him. In OMWF, he was singing : "Let me rest in peace", but again, it's Buffy who goes after him. And during all this season, the more she gives him hopes, the more he wants something in return from her. After all, he's a man in love and when they broke up, he suffers of the situation. That's normal.
The difference with his love with Dru is, he suffers a lot, but even if he wants Buffy, even if she rejects him, he won't doing a spell or anything like that to her. He just tries to do something to him, that's what we see in Entropy :
***
SPIKE: Right then. Got something that'll dull the ache a bit?
ANYA: (smiling)
Actually, yes. (walks back behind the counter)
Um, Giles left a couple of supplies here, and I think ... this might help.
She bends over, begins rummaging in the cabinet under the cash register.
ANYA: Eases the hurt ... makes the sun shine a little brighter, (Spike frowning) even makes boring people seem more interesting. Ah. Here.
***
He doesn't force anything, he tries to move on with all the help possible, even if it's hard and even if he has to use magic.
And here again, when he sleeps with Anya, Buffy is hurt. Whereas she was asking to him to move on. Why would she be hurt is she hadn't feelings for him ?
But soulful Spike gives me his own reasons not to like him. I heartily agree with whoever said they don't believe he feels remorse, he just feels sorry for himself. Now that he actually *has* a soul, he realizes that he had no idea what he was signing up for by getting one, and clearly regrets it for a while. But then he slides from that back into the attitude of the old Spike and denies responsibility and guilt. If this is just his way of dealing with the guilt he really does feel, then he needs a new way of dealing, because this one is immature, something a being well into his second century of existence has no business being as often as Spike is.
Spike has his own way of dealing with remorses, and he has still a lot to learn. If he was doing it like Angel does, it would have been redondant, and honestly, brooding isn't a Spike's thing. He moves on, constantly. Maybe it's not the better way of dealing with it, but few months after he gets his soul, he deals with it like he can.
Angel had 100 years for finding his way. He didn't exactly play the Champion role during all this time"¦ he was eating rats, lying in the garbages, and trying to not kill someone because of his vampire instincts.
Spike needed time. That's all.
I don't think he doesn't feel remorses. Actually, to be fair, remorses made him crazy until
Him (7x06). But Buffy helped him and he deals with it differently after that.
Shooting script of "
Never leave me" (7x09) :
BUFFY : "
There's a man in there underneath that monster. A man who -- even when he had no soul -- struggled to find redemption. You're alive because I know he's in there, and I believe in the man he can be."
She gives him faith, and she gives him the proof of her faith in him. She proves that she sees the man behind the monster, even when he has no soul, because it's this man who fought for his soul, and she believes in *this* man.
At this point, Spike handle his guilt differently. He knows he has done mistakes, but he also knows he can't change the past.
Maybe you find this way of dealing with guilt immature, I just think it's a way of dealing with it for beggining. Few months after the recovery of his soul, it's just this. Time can make things different. We see in AtS that he begins to be different on this point.
If you give to Angel 100 years for finding his way, I think that one year is the minimum you can give to Spike.
What he says to Wood about Nikki is beyond horrible, and I was astonished to see Buffy defend this unapologetic creep against the son of a fellow Slayer he murdered and Giles, to the extent of threatening the former and creating a permanent breach in her relationship with the latter. Spike has successfully manipulated her into feeling responsible for his soul. Ugh. She picked a terrible reason to finally start standing up to her friends. No, soulful Spike does not deserve to die for soulless Spike's murder of Nikki Wood or anyone else, but Robin at least has as much reason for hating Spike and wanting to avenge his mother's death as Giles had for hating Angel in season three, and Buffy wasn't objecting then, even though Angel was extremely remorseful but Spike isn't at all.
"˜
Spike has successfully manipulated her into feeling responsible for his soul.' => Seriously ?
And don't you think that it was just because she was in love (or falling in love at least) with him, rather than a malicious "˜manipulation' ?
Spike didn't go recover his soul for putting a weight in Buffy's shoulders. Actually, he didn't even wanted to say to her that he has recover his soul at the beggining. And it wasn't his goal when he left Sunnydale. He wanted to be right to Buffy (instead of hurting the woman he loves). And it was a quest for an identity, and because he KNEW that it was the right thing to do. This is what he's saying in
Destiny : "
I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do."
I really don't blame Wood for what he has tried. Because he has reasons for doing this. But his attempt to kill Spike was stupid. He knows that Spike has a soul, he knows that he changed. But he volontary brings back the bad Spike, the vampire part in him, with the song
Early one morning, in order to kill him.
Spike has equally reasons to be angry, like Buffy has reasons to be. Spike really don't need to feel compassion at this point for a guy who just tried to kill him without valid reason at this moment of his life.
I don't think that Spike would have reacted in an insensitive way if he had know it in another way.
Okay, "Chosen". Spike gets hailed all over the place for his heroic sacrifice in this one. Why? This is probably a case of where the fandom's interpretation annoys me more than Spike does. He had no idea what the amulet was going to do. None of them did. If they had, they could have just sent Spike into the Hellmouth by himself and not risked anyone else dying. (That's why I hate plot devices like the amulet. They make the efforts of everyone else seem pointless.) All Spike thought he was signing up for was certain death in battle, just like the others. Points for that, of course, but no more than Buffy and Faith get, and less than non-superpowered humans like Xander and Dawn get. Once the amulet fires up, can he even move? Every time I watch that scene, it looks to me like he's kind of immobilized. Dying to save the world was never what he chose to do at a point when he actually had a choice. He merely accepts what's unavoidable, so"¦whatever. He goes on to undermine his own sacrifice in "Just Rewards", when he tries to blame Angel for his death and delivers that "I don't give a piss about atonement" line. Which means that even *he* is far from considering it a selfless act of heroism, so I don't understand why so many fans insist that that's what it was.
If Spike wanted to, he would have remove the amulet and would have follow Buffy, like she was asking. But he didn't.
He chose to die, because he was feeling he needed to do this. Because he knew the World needed him to do this. And because he wanted to save the woman he loves. Actually, it was a pretty selfless act of heroism. Shooting script of Chosen :
SPIKE
No you don't. But thanks for saying it.
A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.
SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!
"It's your world up there". He gives her the life she always wanted and deserved. He proves to her that she was right to have faith in him. (And he tries to make her leave several times).
But I agree that Spike is an anti-hero. At this point, I'm not sure he really cared about World's fate (Buffy's safety is his first preoccupation and he does it because he knows it has to be done), but he does the best choice. And he becomes a Champion. A Champion who still needs to find his way.
The fight in "Destiny" might be my least favorite soulful Spike moment of all. He not only rejects responsibility for his actions while soulless (only the evil ones, mind you, because he can totally take credit for just the good ones without being a hypocrite), but he actually blames them on Angel. By his own logic, this doesn't make sense. If he isn't guilty of his soulless actions (which he isn't, I agree), then Angel darn well isn't responsible for the actions of Angelus, let alone the actions of Spike. He also says some extremely disrespectful things about Buffy, shoving his season six "relationship" with her in Angel's face. So is he only sorry about what he put her through when she's actually present? This is how he talks about the woman he supposedly loves? I never believed he really loved her before he got his soul, but I did think that changed once he had it. This scene would suggest otherwise.
Spike has years, and years, and years of hate of Angel(us) behind him. Because of Dru, because of Buffy, because of the way he treated his feelings and humiliated him"¦ It's ANGEL who begins to talk about Buffy, in order to HURT Spike. It was volunteer from his part. And he does it in the baddest way possible, because he knows Spike's insecurities when it comes to Buffy's feelings (and Angel knows that Spike was important to Buffy, she said it herself to him). Spike is in love with Buffy and he respects her ; that was the exception. I disliked it in "Destiny", but it was an exception in the middle of a fight between two old vampires. Because he was trying to hurt Angel as much as Angel was hurting him. In this context, it was understandable.
He never talked about what he had with Buffy in season 7. He never talked about the « I love you » moment. He keeps the most important and intimate for himself. Because it's not Angel's business. He respects what he and Buffy really had by keeping it for himself.
But I have to say that I'm not a big fan of season 5 of ATS, because even if Spike and Angel interractions were funny, it definitely wasn't the Spike and Angel I love...
