bespangeled
Scooby
I almost called the thread Spike vs Angel but their relationship is so much more than that.
Topher and I were talking about Spike, and my contention that Spike follows in Angel's footsteps. He has some excellent points, and I hope I do as well.
Before transferring I want to point out that Angel might complain about Spike - a whole lot of complaints - but he always rescues Spike. Keep in mind that he's staked Darla, staked Penn, and set Darla and Dru on fire. But on the submarine, he makes sure that Spike survives. I think he went down there, in part because he knows Spike is there, and he knows he can handle Spike. When Spike appear at W&H, for all of Angel's complaining in the lab he still looks worried when Spike disappears. And he is there for Spike both when Pavayne wants to drag him to hell, and when Spike gets his arms sawed off.
So who are they - together and apart?
Topher and I were discussing whether or not Spike changed once he got a soul. Of course that brings Angel into the question on a lot of levels.
---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
And yes - he is always shown regarding Angel with contempt. I'm not saying he loved Angel and made a conscious choice to follow him. There's a strong belief in basic psychology that in real life we are always reacting to our parents - we either want to be just like them or want to be completely different (generally it end up being a combination of both). Even when Spike wanted to be completely difference it was still about Angel (rather like Angelus keeping the fascination with Buffy that Angel had but not the love). Once the sh*t hit the fan, suddenly Spike is following in Angel's footsteps. I don't think that what he says matters as much as what he does. If Angel had not been part of his life I don't believe he would have even thought of getting a soul.
Spike calls himself a monster in season 5 - but then he fights on the same side of Buffy, tries to save Dawn, and even though Buffy is dead (please don't say he's trying to get into her decaying pants) he follows through on his promise and takes care of Dawn. The fact that he is still a monster makes this all the more remarkable, really. Giles, their leader, leaves. Spike stays and fights on the same side as the Scoobs. Yes, he would have died to save Dawn or Buffy - for a whole raft of reasons. Again, he is still a monster but he chooses to stay and protect those that Buffy loved. No, he probably has no farks to give about anyone else.
The coat is stored in the basement until Buffy calls him on being weak and tells him that she wants the same vampire who tried to kill her when they met. Buffy tells him to become what he was, so he takes on his old guise and goes off to kill a demon for her. Buffy needs him to be a predator again, a fighter, so that's what he becomes.
LMPTM - why is it that those who complain never seem to bring in the fact that this all happens during a planned murder attempt. It's not like he decided to pick a fight with Wood. Giles took the role of keeping Buffy away while Wood killed Spike. This is the same Giles who said Spike was fighting the effect of the stone (memory buried for a reason here - not going to get it within minutes). The result is that Spike gets his memory back and chooses not to kill Wood or Giles. That is showing the same restraint that Buffy used when she chose not to kill Ben - and not the practicality that Giles used when he did kill Ben.
He's not ashamed. He makes it clear, even into Ats that he sees what he did as being the action of a predator because he was a predator. Now he is not a predator, and it's what he does now that counts. Yes, that's a rationalization, but he's only been souled for a few months, not an entire century.
As far as Touched is concerned - meh. He acts like he should when everyone is completely acting out of character. I think what he eventually shares with Buffy is unselfish and beautiful. One thing I don't think a lot of people appreciate is that the First is always trying to tear the group apart. Think of the Yoko Effect on steroids. All it would need is the right words overheard for people to begin to lose trust in each other and in Buffy. We know that the First is powerful enough to convince someone to commit suicide - we know the First is a mindfarker extraordinaire. So the real fight at this point is the one for hearts and minds. Spike - simply because he is crippled and still has no moral compass - follows Buffy because he knows how the First works better than anyone. He sees Buffy as intrinsically good - the only one who will not change because of the First, the only safe person to blindly follow.
I think we are pulling this discussion off topic - maybe we should start a new thread. I'm really enjoying this.
---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------
Obviously I disagree on the behavior issue. I think he changed a great deal, but he didn't turn into souled Angel.To start with, he didn't kill Wood or Giles. Wood had a vendetta but Spike didn't reply with his own vendetta. Yes, in his outer appearance he didn't change as much as Angel, but I can see why he didn't feel that he needed to.
Part of that difference is because Spike's change was gradual. He had time to adapt to not killing, and to working with the white hats. Angel got slammed with something no other vamp had ever had (or perhaps survived) and he had no support network. His reaction, in part, was to become as different from Angelus as possible. Hence the dramatic differences in every area....except leather pants. 🙂
I think that if she has seen the darkness that was Angelus - particularly the vile imagination that resulted in killing Jenny and then leaving her in Giles' bed - he would have moved to number one on the who to stake next list. I don't think he would have survived long enough to get souled. But if he did, with Buffy knowing how sadistic Angelus was, I don't think she would have trusted him enough to love him.
With Spike, it was different. Once he was chipped, well he was a pretty pitiful demon. 'Evil lite' as Xander said. In season 6, she hated Spike, but she also went to him for sex, for degrading sex, for the ability to feel. He was in essence a walking dildo. As she said, she was angry and she took it out on him. (This is in no way to excuse Spike's behavior and choices.) In the end, while there was an incredibly strong bond, I don't think it was romantic. And I think she would have reacted the same way to souled Angel. They could be friends - even close friends - working together, but I don't think there would be enough trust for her to share herself beyond that.
Then there is Spike and Angel - with both Dru and Buffy standing between them. Obviously this was touched on in Destiny, and it was the only thing that made Spike lose control and begin to fight on Angel's terms. I'm not sure how much this was about Buffy, and how much this was about a pattern that began with Dru. I also think that the message there was not about Dru - she was the battleground. The message is - Willy, I will take and have what I want and you own nothing I can't take away from you. You are at the bottom of the family, and all crap flows downhill.
Topher and I were talking about Spike, and my contention that Spike follows in Angel's footsteps. He has some excellent points, and I hope I do as well.
Before transferring I want to point out that Angel might complain about Spike - a whole lot of complaints - but he always rescues Spike. Keep in mind that he's staked Darla, staked Penn, and set Darla and Dru on fire. But on the submarine, he makes sure that Spike survives. I think he went down there, in part because he knows Spike is there, and he knows he can handle Spike. When Spike appear at W&H, for all of Angel's complaining in the lab he still looks worried when Spike disappears. And he is there for Spike both when Pavayne wants to drag him to hell, and when Spike gets his arms sawed off.
So who are they - together and apart?
Topher and I were discussing whether or not Spike changed once he got a soul. Of course that brings Angel into the question on a lot of levels.
---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
And yes - he is always shown regarding Angel with contempt. I'm not saying he loved Angel and made a conscious choice to follow him. There's a strong belief in basic psychology that in real life we are always reacting to our parents - we either want to be just like them or want to be completely different (generally it end up being a combination of both). Even when Spike wanted to be completely difference it was still about Angel (rather like Angelus keeping the fascination with Buffy that Angel had but not the love). Once the sh*t hit the fan, suddenly Spike is following in Angel's footsteps. I don't think that what he says matters as much as what he does. If Angel had not been part of his life I don't believe he would have even thought of getting a soul.
Spike calls himself a monster in season 5 - but then he fights on the same side of Buffy, tries to save Dawn, and even though Buffy is dead (please don't say he's trying to get into her decaying pants) he follows through on his promise and takes care of Dawn. The fact that he is still a monster makes this all the more remarkable, really. Giles, their leader, leaves. Spike stays and fights on the same side as the Scoobs. Yes, he would have died to save Dawn or Buffy - for a whole raft of reasons. Again, he is still a monster but he chooses to stay and protect those that Buffy loved. No, he probably has no farks to give about anyone else.
The coat is stored in the basement until Buffy calls him on being weak and tells him that she wants the same vampire who tried to kill her when they met. Buffy tells him to become what he was, so he takes on his old guise and goes off to kill a demon for her. Buffy needs him to be a predator again, a fighter, so that's what he becomes.
LMPTM - why is it that those who complain never seem to bring in the fact that this all happens during a planned murder attempt. It's not like he decided to pick a fight with Wood. Giles took the role of keeping Buffy away while Wood killed Spike. This is the same Giles who said Spike was fighting the effect of the stone (memory buried for a reason here - not going to get it within minutes). The result is that Spike gets his memory back and chooses not to kill Wood or Giles. That is showing the same restraint that Buffy used when she chose not to kill Ben - and not the practicality that Giles used when he did kill Ben.
He's not ashamed. He makes it clear, even into Ats that he sees what he did as being the action of a predator because he was a predator. Now he is not a predator, and it's what he does now that counts. Yes, that's a rationalization, but he's only been souled for a few months, not an entire century.
As far as Touched is concerned - meh. He acts like he should when everyone is completely acting out of character. I think what he eventually shares with Buffy is unselfish and beautiful. One thing I don't think a lot of people appreciate is that the First is always trying to tear the group apart. Think of the Yoko Effect on steroids. All it would need is the right words overheard for people to begin to lose trust in each other and in Buffy. We know that the First is powerful enough to convince someone to commit suicide - we know the First is a mindfarker extraordinaire. So the real fight at this point is the one for hearts and minds. Spike - simply because he is crippled and still has no moral compass - follows Buffy because he knows how the First works better than anyone. He sees Buffy as intrinsically good - the only one who will not change because of the First, the only safe person to blindly follow.
I think we are pulling this discussion off topic - maybe we should start a new thread. I'm really enjoying this.
---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------
Obviously I disagree on the behavior issue. I think he changed a great deal, but he didn't turn into souled Angel.To start with, he didn't kill Wood or Giles. Wood had a vendetta but Spike didn't reply with his own vendetta. Yes, in his outer appearance he didn't change as much as Angel, but I can see why he didn't feel that he needed to.
Part of that difference is because Spike's change was gradual. He had time to adapt to not killing, and to working with the white hats. Angel got slammed with something no other vamp had ever had (or perhaps survived) and he had no support network. His reaction, in part, was to become as different from Angelus as possible. Hence the dramatic differences in every area....except leather pants. 🙂
I think that if she has seen the darkness that was Angelus - particularly the vile imagination that resulted in killing Jenny and then leaving her in Giles' bed - he would have moved to number one on the who to stake next list. I don't think he would have survived long enough to get souled. But if he did, with Buffy knowing how sadistic Angelus was, I don't think she would have trusted him enough to love him.
With Spike, it was different. Once he was chipped, well he was a pretty pitiful demon. 'Evil lite' as Xander said. In season 6, she hated Spike, but she also went to him for sex, for degrading sex, for the ability to feel. He was in essence a walking dildo. As she said, she was angry and she took it out on him. (This is in no way to excuse Spike's behavior and choices.) In the end, while there was an incredibly strong bond, I don't think it was romantic. And I think she would have reacted the same way to souled Angel. They could be friends - even close friends - working together, but I don't think there would be enough trust for her to share herself beyond that.
Then there is Spike and Angel - with both Dru and Buffy standing between them. Obviously this was touched on in Destiny, and it was the only thing that made Spike lose control and begin to fight on Angel's terms. I'm not sure how much this was about Buffy, and how much this was about a pattern that began with Dru. I also think that the message there was not about Dru - she was the battleground. The message is - Willy, I will take and have what I want and you own nothing I can't take away from you. You are at the bottom of the family, and all crap flows downhill.