Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" (WB-US) - Airing 5/19/04

maybe gore was not the right word.......
blade 2 had this real hard felling about it........ it was gory...but the fight scenes were just awesome and direct...

if i could have that lot with the emotions that buffy had then i think it would be a great mix..... I agree buffy could have u up then down... the eps were brill written and i would just get wrapped up in the shows when i watched them....

i also agree that angel was very murky and so on........
U know out of all the angel characters i really really liked doyle....... from season 1......... to be honest i thing he was the strongest character in the whole season........

he was the sort of serious funny character of the gang sort of like zander

oh i posted that response ^^^ above about the gore beacuse when i read your post it looked like i was some gory freak who was blood thirsty or something.... im not by the way
 
Willow03 said:
wow I'm in the middle of this episode...wow its soo good. I loved Angel's line "I want you Lindsey"...lol "Maybe I should rephrase that".

Wow, ok Lorne just killed Lindsey, that was a shock, I think I may have gasped..lol

omg omg. Wesley!!! I can't belive he just died! That scene between him and "Fred" was very sweet, so Illyria is finally feeling some emotions...Well atleast him and the real fred will be together now.

Ok, wow, that was such a bad ending!! Whats going to happen!! I need more!!

Ok, is angel just ending on the WB or is it totally over, because what was with that "Thank You" thing at the end.....??
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its all over nooooooooooooo
 
Ohh... I just saw this episode today on my computer (late I know but what the hell... 😛)

I completely loved the episode! 🙂 Great to see Harmony (first season 5 episode for me - ever) and everyone. I just love it when Spike took that baby and said - "Lucky for you I'm on a tight idet" or something... Good to see old Spike show himself - a bit 😉 (like I said - first season 5 for me).

And because it was the first season 5 episode for me (opps, am I a broken record? 😛) I got kinda confused with Lorne killing Lindsay deal.... What was up with that?

And what was it more.... hmmm.... Lindsay looking good as always 😉 I just loved Illyria... I cant believe Angel signed away his humanity 😛 Gunn completely lovely as always... Wesley... *cries* Why?! I love Wesley and I almost cried when he died...

The episode seemed hurried. It was like they left in the middle of a conversation it felt or felt a few seconds of a scene to make it feel a little bit more real and so... But still - loved it 😀
 
Eowyn said:
Ohh... I just saw this episode today on my computer (late I know but what the hell... 😛)
And because it was the first season 5 episode for me (opps, am I a broken record? 😛) I got kinda confused with Lorne killing Lindsay deal.... What was up with that?
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We don't completely know what's up with that either. There are a few different theories or whatever. It seems pretty clear though, that the events of the previous couple of episodes, and to a lesser extent, some of the events earlier in the season have made Lorne feel increasingly uncomfortable about working for Angel. So he quit.

I could say lots more beyond that, but it would all be speculation and opinions not necessarily supported by specific dialogue in specific scenes. (As opposed to the statements in the preceeding paragraph which are supported by specific dialogue in specific scenes.)
 
my that is a lot of long words in 1 paragraph

: grin :


i do miss it
But i think i miss buffy more
I am gonna by the buffy box set dvd that is coming out soon.
it has all the seasons in 1 box set
looks good £150 i think it was
 
Only just got around to seeing this. It really needed another episode, it should have been a two parter. It just felt all too rushed, even more so when you think they wasted an entire episode on that stupid trip to Italy. I mean, what was that all about?

Apart from that quibble, I liked the episode. Well, I didn't "like" it in the normal sense as how can I like an episode when I know it's the very last one? I was thinking, "if I don't watch it, then Angel won't end and I won't get really annoyed at another US network!"

Best moment for me was Wes's death scene. I really liked the guy and his character development was the most pronounced throughtout the series. It was quite moving. I hated the final scene at first, but then thought it was better than killing them all off or tieing stuff up in a nice bow and seeing them walking down the yellow brick road all happy clappy. The series always had a much harder edge to it than Buffy, and this was reflected in the ending.

Genre TV in the states is in my view at it's lowest ebb for many a year and I doubt that we'll see something like Buffy or Angel again.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
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DarkSoul said:
Genre TV in the states is in my view at it's lowest ebb for many a year and I doubt that we'll see something like Buffy or Angel again.
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If you want to be more angry at the networks, go rent Firefly on DVD (another Wheddon series). It only ran for something like nine episodes and a two-hour pilot, but it's really good. (The country-ish theme song can take a few times to get used to though.) There will be a movie in September.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
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On Not Fade Away, I find I'm liking it more and more, the more I watch it on tape. It repeats well.

On the Wesley's death scene, "Here, here". Don't you love those last words by Cyvus Vail. Those have to be the dummest last words by a villian since The Judge pointed at Buffy's rocket launcher, and asked, "What's that do?"

On Firefly, yeah, that rates high on the "stupid things Fox has done" chart. Fox kind of reminds me of the British empire when it was the big thing. They do some stuff so stupid you wonder how they're still alive, but then they'll do other stuff that's kind of clever that keeps them going, and it's like, how can an organization so smart, be so stupid?

On American genre TV, I hear ya bud.
 
nerd4hire said:
On the Wesley's death scene, "Here, here". Don't you love those last words by Cyvus Vail.
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The cool part about Vail's (Vale's?) death is that he died because he forgot what Wesley earlier said was the first lesson of magic--or something like that. It's been a long time since I saw the episode, but I remember Wesley said the first thing you're taught as a watcher is how to tell the difference between illusion and reality. But the very powerful Vail guy made a dumb mistake (the way arrogant people always do) and failed to see through the Illyria/Fred illusion. Neat. 🙂

nerd4hire said:
On Firefly, yeah, that rates high on the "stupid things Fox has done" chart. Fox kind of reminds me of the British empire when it was the big thing. They do some stuff so stupid you wonder how they're still alive, but then they'll do other stuff that's kind of clever that keeps them going, and it's like, how can an organization so smart, be so stupid?
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Let's turn it around (just for the hell of it): maybe it's not possible for a big organization to not do stupid things on occasion because it's so big. I mean Fox is this incredibly huge sprawling mass of inter-related companies and organizations. Naturally there's gonna be some bad calls. And then some really bad calls. And then pure, rock solid stupidity, like: hey, let's us throw a whole bunch o' money at this new Joss project and let him film and air in widescreen, then let's change our minds and sabotage it all by airing the pilot last and airing the other episodes slightly out of order and, oh yeah, we'll also give it a bad time slot. Yeah. That'd be good.

Although I have no evidence whatsoever, my personal opinion is that the Firefly debacle was the result of some internal political problems. As I just said, I have no evidence, and I'm not trying to start a rumor, it's just that internal politics is often the cause for massive acts of stupidity. (Like invading Russia then changing your mind twice about which city you want to attack so you get stuck there for the winter or dumping money into a big TV project only to sabotage it later.)

See also the SNAFU Principle. 🙂
 
I gotta say this whole season was amazing.

I just watched this episode last night, and as soon as the credits came up I thought NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I need more. It left me feeling sorta empty in that how can it end like that.

I loved how Illyria killed Vail, awsome.

Heres a question, where did all the demons come from? did they come out of a portal the SP's opened or did the SP's send out a signal?

I hope we get a tv movie or something as I feel Joss needs to explain what happened to everyone. Did they survive.

I thought how Angel said "Personally I kinda wanna slay the dragon" weren't Dragon Slayers supposed to be imbued with some sort of power if they slay the dragon? They get to live forever as an immortal. I know Angel is immortal but it gives you hope in that he survives, well thats just me rambling.

Lorne killing Lindsay shocked me, I thought woah he has changed so much I don't blame him for not wanting to meet up with the others.

All in all this ep was good but I don't get how Joss thought this ending was the way to go out.
 
TheChosenOne said:
Heres a question, where did all the demons come from? did they come out of a portal the SP's opened or did the SP's send out a signal?
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I don't know where they all came from. I like to imagine them having come from all over. Like maybe a few vampires and other small demons came from down the street via a signal, then a whole bunch of other demons came through many different portals from all over the Joss multiverse--all "warping in" at roughly the same time.

If there were someone out there with a device that could measure extraplanar activity in the same way you can measure earthquakes, it would probably have registered as a 4.5 or 5.5. 🙂 Definitely not the biggest event ever, but waaay overkill for our heroes.

Of course, if Joss and them ever get to making a sequel, they can always have had our heroes survive some way or another. Until then, I think we're supposed to imagine them forever poised "on the brink"--not yet dead, but with the odds stacked heavily against them.
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
Of course, if Joss and them ever get to making a sequel, they can always have had our heroes survive some way or another. Until then, I think we're supposed to imagine them forever poised "on the brink"--not yet dead, but with the odds stacked heavily against them.
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When I watched the DVD special features, when Joss was discussing S5, he explicitly mentioned that Gunn "was about to die", so doubtful if he would feature in any future mini series etc. Not that there will be any mini series. 🙁
 
Yeah on the featurette Angel The Final Season, he said "...or soon to be dead" something like that, but he said it in a way that was Gunn is dead!

So The SP's plan for Angel taking over W&H was to distract him from the Apocalypse right, I thought they had greater plans for him, so now they send their best demons to take him out cos he Royally P!ssed them off cos he killed all The Black Thorn, I mean he did thwart there other plans in the past. Do you think they finally flipped and sent the demons after him cos they were in a rage and didn't think? Hope that makes sense :eyes:

Also about the portal thingy, I think that makes sense although if The SP's did that then it would have been chaos in LA cos the portals would have opened up all over, unless they opened it up at the mouth of the Alley.

Also why did Angel want to meet up in the alley outside the Hyperion?
 
TheChosenOne said:
Yeah on the featurette Angel The Final Season, he said "...or soon to be dead" something like that, but he said it in a way that was Gunn is dead!
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He could have meant it when he said it, but until such time as some continuation of the story gets written, Joss could still change his mind. Or not. I think the actual reason Joss had Gunn in the dying state at that point in the story was 1) to help increase the pathos and drama and tension, 2) because it made sense, after Gunn just took on eight or ten vamps or however many it was, and 3) so Joss could have Illyria deliver the line, "You're fading..." which ties us back into the episode title.

All I'm saying: the way I think Joss works, the way these sorts of things work: it could still go either way until he's dead. And even then, it could still go either way. 🙂 Joss is a storyteller first and foremost. If he decides he wants the Gunn character around, and if the actor's available, then Gunn will live (or come back from the dead or get resucitated by paramedics or whatever). If Joss feels he has no need or use for the character or the actor's unavailable, then Gunn will get dead as a dalek.

TheChosenOne said:
Do you think they finally flipped and sent the demons after him cos they were in a rage and didn't think? Hope that makes sense :eyes:
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Yes that more or less makes sense, and yes I think that's what happened.

TheChosenOne said:
Also about the portal thingy, I think that makes sense although if The SP's did that then it would have been chaos in LA cos the portals would have opened up all over, unless they opened it up at the mouth of the Alley.
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I think most of the demons "portaled" in right at the alley. Ever seen Babylon 5? There's a few times in that series where a whole bunch of ships jump in from hyperspace all at once. I imagine it looking like that. If only the Angel series had, had the time and money, it would have been a rather spectacular looking scene. 😀 Still not quite truly epic size, of course, not like Lord of the Rings--if it were, then it would be measuring a solid 9.5 or higher on my made up "portal-o-graph" instead of only a 5. 🙂

TheChosenOne said:
Also why did Angel want to meet up in the alley outside the Hyperion?
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I thought it was the alley behind Caritas, Lorne's bar, but it's been a while since I've seen the episode so I could be misremembering. I think the reason they met in an alley was that from an ambiance it would work better for staging the final fight scene. OTOH, if you want the in-story reason, I dunno. I suppose you could say that since Angel knew the SPs would unleash all hell on them he thought it prudent that the battle happen somewhere with not as many people around.
 
GUNN
So I guess we're not going back to the office after this.

ANGEL
(shakes his head)
The alley just north of the Hyperion. Everyone who makes it meets there. If we do any damage at all, the senior partners are gonna rain hell on us. So be ready.
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On where the demons come from, I guess it's viewer's choice.

Personally, I choose to believe they are gathered together in this reality, with a possibility of a combination of this reality, and other dimensions.

I make this choice, because to me there seems to me to be a constant in the Buffy/Angelverse, where it is a problem moving large amounts of power across dimensions.

Lesser demons can on occasion move across dimensions with ease. For an example I would offer up the fuzzy knuckle demon that sends Giles and Anya to the dimension of Beljoxa's eye in Showtime.

When Demon's of larger power seek to move between dimensions however, they encounter problems that require special, manipulative solutions. Here's a few examples:

The Senior Partner in Reprise.
The need for the conduit in Angel the Series.
The Worm in Fray.
The seal and the Turok Han army in Buffy Season 7
Glory and the Key.
Jasmine.

Illyria can move between dimensions at full power, but she is coming from an era before the old ones were banished from the earthly dimension.
 
I hated it, I hated the fact that Lorne is now a killer. I hated that Fred wasn't there for the last fight that she worked so hard towards. I hated the whole Illyria plot. I hated that everyone died. I hated that Lorne left. I hated that Angel was playing both sides. I hated that they didn't give us closure at the end and left us hanging (although I do like thinking that there is a big possiblity angel dies...and that gives me a happy) I hated that Spike never told Buffy he was back. I hated that Knox turned out evil. I hated that Spike was good and order obeying. I hated that Harmony banged Hamilton (i mean EWWWW) I hated that Harmony was still alive and in the season at all. I hated that Wesley had to watch Fred die. I hated that Fred died. I hated that Fred wasn't there for Wesley (Illyria doesnt count, Wesley knew it wasn't her). I hated that when Connor came back to help Angel that he didn't help with the big fight in the alley and I hate that Angel didn't say goodbye or I love you or something akin to that.
I think the last episode sucked. But totally off the subject...SMILE TIME was freekin awesome. 🙂
 
I thought season 5 was pretty good. I hate the last second of the last episode though. If they don't come out with an Angel movie I swear... I'm gonna wonder what happened until the day I die!
 
Stupified said:
I thought season 5 was pretty good. I hate the last second of the last episode though. If they don't come out with an Angel movie I swear... I'm gonna wonder what happened until the day I die!
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(borrowing from Douglas Adams) The answer is simple: the show ended.
 
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