Spuffy #6 - General Discussion

Yay! Our sixth general discussion thread!!

Spuffies Kick Butt!!

Keep that Spuffy chat coming - anything and everything Spuffy/Spike/Buffy related 🙂

these are our current questions

And the suggestion that Spike's "no you don't but thaks for saying it" was an ironic joke was also under discussion:

https://www.buffy-boards.com/showpost.php?p=920791&postcount=198

Number SIX?! Awesome!!!

VIVA LA SPUFFY!

You know the more I think about the no you don't being a joke... the more I think that's true. I mean he kind of smiles when he says it. I really love the idea of it being a joke. Kind of like a "haha, now you say it!" It's like... There was this guy... and he and I were like... I can't explain it it would take too long. I did a pretty good job in the "I never believed Willow was gay" thread... anyway... We had a class together and grew really close. We had summer... and the next school year he came to me and said "I missed you" and I said "no you didn't. You just THINK you missed me." But I said it with a smirk on my face and as a joke and he chuckled and said "yeah, you're right. I didn't miss you. Not one bit!" But we both knew he did miss me... and I missed him too. The fact he says it with a slight smirk... and his eyebrows go up... it's just... and the way he takes that breath right after she says it... I really think it's partially a joke.

Interestingly, Spike's smile is mentioned in the script - he "smiles kindly":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/52.jpg

But onscreen there is more than kindness in his smile - there is challenge, irony, detachment. Spike's smile is as mysterious as Buffy's final smile when she says his name in the end.

I think there's different types of jokes. It's hard for me to say it was strictly a joke because when I think "joke" per se, I think "Haha, very funny." And I don't get that feeling when Spike says, "No, you don't." Instead, I feel like Spike tries to bring a little humor to a tragic moment because he knows it'll be hard for Buffy if he acknowledges her love now. He also doesn't say, "No, you don't" while shaking his head, which could imply that it's more of a joke per se. He looks at Buffy directly in the eyes and says the line. So, I think it's fitting with his character that he would jokingly say, "No, you don't," since his eyes and smile say otherwise.

Sixth thread! Will we ever run out of things to discuss? Let's hope not! 😀

Anyway, on the topic of Spike's "No you don't" there's something I really need to get off my chest. Does anyone else, just a little bit, get annoyed with him? It's a weird thing that's always sort of bugged me and I want to know I just kinda need to get it out. Buffy feels how she feels and she doesn't need Spike to contradict that. I mean, if you think of it, it's a very presumptuous thing to say, especially considering it's become a very big deal for Buffy to tell someone she them and he's just saying to her "no, you don't." It's not a big deal anyway but it seems like the kinda thing Buffy would get annoyed about too. Like, "I love you, now quite whining and get over it!"

Moscow Watcher said:

But onscreen there is more than kindness in his smile - there is challenge, irony, detachment. Spike's smile is as mysterious as Buffy's final smile when she says his name in the end.

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I think both smiles say love. There's a lot of other emotions there too... but I think both smiles come down to love. Just like when Buffy smiles right before she says she loves him... Love.

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WakingNightmare said:

Sixth thread! Will we ever run out of things to discuss? Let's hope not! 😀

Anyway, on the topic of Spike's "No you don't" there's something I really need to get off my chest. Does anyone else, just a little bit, get annoyed with him? It's a weird thing that's always sort of bugged me and I want to know I just kinda need to get it out. Buffy feels how she feels and she doesn't need Spike to contradict that. I mean, if you think of it, it's a very presumptuous thing to say, especially considering it's become a very big deal for Buffy to tell someone she them and he's just saying to her "no, you don't." It's not a big deal anyway but it seems like the kinda thing Buffy would get annoyed about too. Like, "I love you, now quite whining and get over it!"

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What was he going to say? "I love you too now let me die"? I always kind of figured it would be way too hard for him to say "I love you too." Not just for her, but for him too. I mean to have that perfect exchange of I love you's and then to make the choice to stay down there... I imagine that would be way too hard for Spike. He knew he had to be strong, and if he told her "I love you too," he couldn't be.

WakingNightmare said:

Anyway, on the topic of Spike's "No you don't" there's something I really need to get off my chest. Does anyone else, just a little bit, get annoyed with him? It's a weird thing that's always sort of bugged me and I want to know I just kinda need to get it out. Buffy feels how she feels and she doesn't need Spike to contradict that. I mean, if you think of it, it's a very presumptuous thing to say, especially considering it's become a very big deal for Buffy to tell someone she them and he's just saying to her "no, you don't." It's not a big deal anyway but it seems like the kinda thing Buffy would get annoyed about too. Like, "I love you, now quite whining and get over it!"

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Oh, of course I get annoyed, lol! 😀 I mean come on Spike. You just felt fire burst between you and Buffy! Fire defines your relationship with Buffy, you've said it yourself! Buffy then FINALLY admits her feelings and that's what you say? *Sigh*

At the same time, the way he says it though, the meaning behind these words, and their eye contact is just amazing. It wouldn't be the Spuffy I love if he said something very predictable and very cheesy. 🙂

I know, I know, it's really just my fierce loyalty to Buffy talking. I mean, the fact that she couldn't say the words until she saw him dying proved just how very hard it was for her. A thanks would've been okay, but I don't know why he had to try and tell her that she didn't, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

But, hey, it's Spuffy. I wouldn't want 'em any other way 😀

I was so annoyed with Spike when I first watched that episode - I was crushed and just couldn't understand why he would say such a thing; I mean, what was he? Blind? It was Spike's denial of Buffy's feelings that drove me deeper into the Buffy fandom - I watched the episode again after buying the dvds and I wanted to see what other people thought of the line and how they interpreted it. And I've read many, many, many different explanations and interpretations and my opinion has changed so many times. I'm not 100% on board with the "joke" theory - certainly not in a funny ha ha sense - but I can buy it as irony. See I see it now as ironic symmetry - all those years he said he loved her and she didn't believe him are turned on their head by him not believing her when she finally says the words.

Tranquillity said:

See I see it now as ironic symmetry - all those years he said he loved her and she didn't believe him are turned on their head by him not believing her when she finally says the words.

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Question: Do you think Spike believed Buffy? I really think he did, which is another reason why I think he added the humor. I also really see the line as relating to what Buffy said to him in "Dead Things."

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

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For me, personally, I'd have to say definitely not. There were times when I grew frustrated with Buffy and was a little irritated with Spike, but that certainly didn't lend a hand to my love wavering at any point during the course of the show or comics for that matter, regarding these two.

I have always loved their story no matter what path it took us (myself) down as a fan. It is one of the most beautiful stories, that I think I've ever watched to date. And that's pretty much saying a lot.

The bottom line is, I love these characters both as individuals for their own reasons and I love them even more when they come together as a couple. There's something so amazing about how these two just fit and seem so natural. It's not static, where one's in front of or behind the other, it's more like they're side by side both on equal footing and they bring out both the best and the worst in each other, and through it all they made it. It was enough, just for me to get to watch it unfold.

It was their story and it was quite amazing to watch. 🙂

Question: Do you think Spike believed Buffy? I really think he did, which is another reason why I think he added the humor. I also really see the line as relating to what Buffy said to him in "Dead Things."

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I've always held the belief that he did believe her, but it was more along the lines of him just not saying it (not because he couldn't), but because if he did acknowledge it then maybe there was a chance she would have chosen to stay down there and die with him, and he just couldn't see that happening. So, he deflects and tells her that, "no you don't, but thanks for saying it" and then every line after that becomes an order for her to get to safety and to leave him to his business. But, then I also tend to think, that maybe it would have been a little too hard for him to say it back to her as well. Something that was so big and so emotional and in the face of such overwhelming odds that they were both sort of facing.

Do you think Spike believed Buffy? I really think he did, which is another reason why I think he added the humor. I also really see the line as relating to what Buffy said to him in "Dead Things."

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Well, no . . . I suppose I don't think that Spike believed her. I think that Spike, at that stage in his development, thought he was basically unloveable - he pretty much loathed himself, so how could he concieve that the woman of his dreams could possibly love him? For me, this explains why Spike doesn't contact Buffy during season five of Angel - he didn't believe her but would rather have the memory of her saying the words than have it confirmed that she was just yanking his chain. But the separation is important for his development - he becomes his own man and really wants to fight the good fight because it is the right thing to do not just to follow Buffy. By the time he comes into Season 8 he plainly still loves Buffy but he doesn't necessarily need her to love him back.

for the record - I also think that Spike was wrong and that Buffy's hellmouth declaration was completely honenst and completely sincere.

Tranquillity said:

For me, this explains why Spike doesn't contact Buffy during season five of Angel - he didn't believe her but would rather have the memory of her saying the words than have it confirmed that she was just yanking his chain. But the separation is important for his development - he becomes his own man and really wants to fight the good fight because it is the right thing to do not just to follow Buffy. By the time he comes into Season 8 he plainly still loves Buffy but he doesn't necessarily need her to love him back.

for the record - I also think that Spike was wrong and that Buffy's hellmouth declaration was completely honenst and completely sincere.

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I love your entire post. I was always bothered by Spike not contacting Buffy in season 5 of Angel, and always thought his reasoning, or at least what he told Harmony, was too contrived. I think you've hit the nail on the head (too use the most cliched expression my brain can come up with at 3 in the morning.)

Tranquillity said:

Well, no . . . I suppose I don't think that Spike believed her. I think that Spike, at that stage in his development, thought he was basically unloveable - he pretty much loathed himself, so how could he concieve that the woman of his dreams could possibly love him? For me, this explains why Spike doesn't contact Buffy during season five of Angel - he didn't believe her but would rather have the memory of her saying the words than have it confirmed that she was just yanking his chain. But the separation is important for his development - he becomes his own man and really wants to fight the good fight because it is the right thing to do not just to follow Buffy. By the time he comes into Season 8 he plainly still loves Buffy but he doesn't necessarily need her to love him back.

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Interesting. 🙂 I'm actually pretty fascinated that Spuffies always agree Buffy loved Spike, yet are spilt on whether Spike believed her, lol! For me, I think he believed her because I can't ignore that look of shock on his face when the fire burst. Also, his line to Angel when he comes back to life, "You had no idea what we had." I think as he started to work for Angel though and figure out what to do next, he started to have doubts on whether he really was worthy of Buffy's love. He died saving her and the world, the ultimate sacrifice, and to show up after that would diminish the significance of his sacrifice. I think he's a complete dope for thinking that, lol, but I get where he's coming from.

I completely agree though that the separation is important for his development and for him to become his own man. 🙂

StarSlayer said:

Question: Do you think Spike believed Buffy? I really think he did, which is another reason why I think he added the humor. I also really see the line as relating to what Buffy said to him in "Dead Things."

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I think he believed her. That little smile I've talked about already... I think that says pretty well he believed her.

StarSlayer said:

Interesting. 🙂 I'm actually pretty fascinated that Spuffies always agree Buffy loved Spike, yet are spilt on whether Spike believed her, lol! For me, I think he believed her because I can't ignore that look of shock on his face when the fire burst. Also, his line to Angel when he comes back to life, "You had no idea what we had." I think as he started to work for Angel though and figure out what to do next, he started to have doubts on whether he really was worthy of Buffy's love. He died saving her and the world, the ultimate sacrifice, and to show up after that would diminish the significance of his sacrifice. I think he's a complete dope for thinking that, lol, but I get where he's coming from.

I completely agree though that the separation is important for his development and for him to become his own man. 🙂

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Oh, I love that line. "You have no idea what we had." Truth.

I agree that Spike believed her. I think he definitely believed her in that moment (because that was totally and completely their moment), but in AtS Season 5, he starts to waver and doubt it. I mean, hanging out with Angel? That's gotta do some damage...😛

We rock!

By the way, I love the idea of Spike's "No, you don't" as being an ironic joke. That is totally in character for him.

So, I have a funny story for you all today. Yesterday, on my way to see a play, I saw a guy who was dressed up exactly like Spike (I tell you, Seattle loves Joss) I swear to God. He was wearing tight black jeans, black shirt, and black boots, and a trenchcoat. And he EVEN had bleached hair and was the same build. It was so bizarre!!!!!

Now for this week's questions;

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

I get what he meant; that both should see other people now, but it doesn't mean there's not a future for the two of them.

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

Yes, during S6 I had a serious crisis. I was very disturbed by their mutually abusive relationship, yet at the same time I thought it was really hot, lol, so yeah it was difficult for me to reconcile.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

Honestly? No. I don't think Buffy would have entered into the sexual relationship she did with Spike if she hadn't died. Now, that's not to say that romance wouldn't have developed, but just wouldn't have started that way. I think even that without the AR Spike would have gotten a soul to earn her love.

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

Buffy's was in Dirty Girls when she sees Faith on the bed with Spike. Her jealousy is to clearly obvious.

Spike's is in Chosen when he sees Buffy kissing Angel.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

Yes, absolutely. Both Buffy and Spike are very sexual people. I could see them exploring lots of new things in the future...

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StarSlayer said:

Question: Do you think Spike believed Buffy? I really think he did, which is another reason why I think he added the humor. I also really see the line as relating to what Buffy said to him in "Dead Things."

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I think I agree. I wrote something about this on my LJ a while back. His statement could have been an ironic reference to that very same line she told him in Dead Things.

I'd love to share a link to a new Spuffy meta:

Gabrielleabelle talks about season 7 Spuffy.

http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/296095.html

An excerpt:

I wish we'd seen more of the post-Showtime recovery, because it does seem that Spike and Buffy got significantly closer during then. In Potential, the following episode, Spike's not staying in the basement. We see the potentials down there in a few scenes, and Spike's cot is not set up. He's also still healing from The First's torture. Where's he sleeping?

In The Killer in Me, as soon as Giles takes the potentials out of the house, Buffy goes down to the basement with Spike. She doesn't have any particular reason to. They're just talking. Like friends.

Then, of course, she decides to have Spike's chip removed rather than repaired by the end of that episode - a decision Giles admonishes her for. Once Giles does so, citing his perception that she's too close to Spike, we see Buffy immediately back off.

I wonder if Buffy, despite her declaration of extra-missiony attachment to Spike at the end of the episode, will continue to attempt to maintain a distance to placate Giles in order to uphold her authority. I'm gonna watch out for that.

Anyway, the rest of the episode! Buffy checking on Spike after the fight. Love it. She places a hand on his arm, and they share a LOOK, and he puts his hand over hers. You can see the kinda-date with Wood just kinda go kablooey there. Buffy's attentions are elsewhere.

I know the scene between Buffy and Spike at the end is controversial among Spuffy fans. Some see it as incredibly hopeful and sweet. Others see it as Buffy making demands of Spike without giving him any real indication of her feelings. I love S7 Spuffy so I tend to the former, personally.

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Comments to the entry are very interesting too.

Hey, new to the spuffy part of buffy boards, just thought I'd answer some of the questions raised recently on here:

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?
In parts of season 6 they lost track for a bit, I felt, of what a relationship should be about, getting caught up in lust rather than love, culminating in the attempted rape. But then even there amongst the few discouraging bits there were a lot of good bits aswell that quickly restored my faith in them, so it did waver for a bit then but only a bit.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

I remember thinking first time round watching it after the kiss at the end of intervention that a relationship could well be a possiblity, but it would take time for it to develop. I think the way they were in the gift with each other was already the beginnings of a relationship, so its definitely believable, but I think the whole ressurection thing maybe speeded up the process.


5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was
that specific to the circumstances?

Spike always did, as we saw at times with his relationships with harmony and drusilla, but for buffy it did rely on the unique circumstances of the season 6 ressurection to bring it out in her I think.