Who REALLY is Spike's sire???

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Charming Slayer

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Question About Sires...

Hi guys.
Don't know if this was noticed, but I had to ask...

In the S2 ep "School Hard", Angel pretends to be evil and all that good stuff. But when Spike lets it be known that he knows that Angel isn't evil, he says "Come on, man, you were my Sire!Didn't you think I'd notice?" Or something along those lines.

Now, technically speaking, Angel did sire Spike: Angel sired Dru, who, in turn, sired Spike; but Angel isn't the actual vamp who sired Spike, as we see in S5's "Fool For Love".

So, my question: Did anyone else notice? And, was it ever acknowledged by the writers that they made this mix-up??

Just curious...
 
I'm not sure if this was a mistake or if it was purposeful. The writers in Buffy make a few errors of discontinuity. For example, a few different ages are presented for Angel, and I thikn there are a few different possible birthdays for some of the characters. And in S5 Fool For Love, did we ever really see Drusilla sire William? The shot cut off before she did anything but bite him, I think. I don't really remember all that well. I'm not saying that Angel did sire Spike, but is there any definite proof. Sorry if that didn't answer your question at all. 🙂
 
I think I heard Joss say something like it is a technicality. So even if Angel didn't sire Spike, it still counts, since he is his grandsire.
 
princess_zombie said:
I'm not sure if this was a mistake or if it was purposeful. The writers in Buffy make a few errors of discontinuity. For example, a few different ages are presented for Angel, and I thikn there are a few different possible birthdays for some of the characters. And in S5 Fool For Love, did we ever really see Drusilla sire William? The shot cut off before she did anything but bite him, I think. I don't really remember all that well. I'm not saying that Angel did sire Spike, but is there any definite proof. Sorry if that didn't answer your question at all. 🙂
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In Angel in the episode "Destiny" Dru brings him home and tells Angelus that she made him. Spike later tells Angel that She sired him but HE made him a monster.
 
It is debated forever. I guess, writers weren't quite sure about the term 'sire' at first, they wanted it sound lile a mentor; a prophetic mentor, thus, they used 'yoda' in addition (Yoda was also a mentor and he was prophetic), then, 'to sire' is used as 'to make vampire', so, sire has become someone who made you a vampire. Darla made Angel a vampire so she is his sire, Dru made Spike a vampire so she is his sire etc. Whedon later explained that Spike called Angel as 'sire' because he was technically became Spike's mentor in the long run. Angel didn't make Spike a vampire but he trained him, so that makes him a sire as in the 'mentor' sense.
 
I just found this quote by Joss, explaining about the confusion around the word sire:
JOSS: [...] Now, this is where it gets confusing for everybody, your sire can mean anybody in the line that made you. So, Drusilla is Spike's sire, but so is Angel in the sense that Angel made Drusilla and Drusilla made Spike. If we were being more literal we would call him a grandsire, but that term does not exist in the vampire world, so sire just means somebody that you are connected to because they came before you on the line. By that reckoning you could say that Darla is Spike's sire since she made Angel.
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Good find, Time Bomb. That makes sense now that I think about it, since the word sire, in the archaic sense, means forefathers. So it would make sense for all of the people in a vampire's line to be,in a way, their sires.
 
Ok, so here is the question I have to ask, that I have been asking myself since I became a fan. Who is Spike's REAL sire????

In "School Hard" Spike tells Angel, "You think you can fool me? You were my sire man, my Yoda.". So he implies that Angel turned him, and Spike mentions it again in Angel season 1's "In the Dark". But, Later, in Buffy season 5, and Angel season 2, they start saying that Drusilla is the one that changed him, so I have to ask, which is it?? Angel or Dru??
 
Spike was Sired By Drusilla, what i think happened here is that they originally wanted Spike to be the 'offspring' of Angelus BUT as the story progressed it more sense for Him to be his Grandsire - So doing what ever good writer does to cover up a mistake.....they made it mean that Angel Created Spike the monster, while Druilla killed William to Creat William the Vampire.....
 
M
Mesektet Ra
I totally forgot to rep you for this. Terrific insight.
Drusilla is Spike's sire, Angelus (or Angel) was more like a mentor to him. You can call that Spike was a padawan to Angelus. [Star Wars reference]
 
Dia DeLa Muerte said:
Angel Created Spike the monster, while Druilla killed William to Creat William the Vampire.....
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I couldn't've said it better myself.

There are a lot of things attributed to Drusilla being Spike's sire...his obsession with her, for example. His caring for her. She took him out of a life he wasn't happy living and made some different. Something he construed as better at the time. Something powerful. And he loved her for it.

Angel was more of his father, someone to show him the ropes of vampirisim because Dru was too crazy to do so. He made him the monster he was. He was more of a sire to Spike than Dru was.
 
E
Edmund Blackadder
abso-frickin'-lutely
Mesektet Ra said:
I couldn't've said it better myself.

There are a lot of things attributed to Drusilla being Spike's sire...his obsession with her, for example. His caring for her. She took him out of a life he wasn't happy living and made some different. Something he construed as better at the time. Something powerful. And he loved her for it.

Angel was more of his father, someone to show him the ropes of vampirisim because Dru was too crazy to do so. He made him the monster he was. He was more of a sire to Spike than Dru was.
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Well, I agree, Dru was too freaking crazy to teach anyone anything. And I knew that Dru really was Spikes sire, but I just thought it was funny the way they worded those eps. But they make it very clear later in the show that Dru sired him. But still... its a fun little convo.
 
Closing this thread as there is nothing more to debate. Joamna found a greaet quote that explains the 'sire' situation. 🙂
 
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