"Kick his ass:" Xander was right

I'd like to venture an opinion which is likely to get me universally despised: that Xander was justified in misreporting Willow's comment to Buffy in the Season 2 finale.

Angelus is a serial killer. He killed Jenny Calendar. He put Willow in a coma. He was, at the moment that Xander spoke, actually in the process of torturing Giles. That's without mentioning the deaths which we can assume occurred offscreen during Season 2 (Angelus doesn't get his blood from the butcher's) or the thousands he killed during a hundred-odd years as the Scourge of Europe.

Angelus does not deserve a single moment of anyone's pity or consideration.

And yet, throughout Season 2, everyone in the Scooby Gang except Xander has repeatedly been giving Angelus second, third, and ten-thousandth chances. Buffy repeatedly passed on the opportunity to dust him. If she had done her job and eliminated him, Jenny would be alive and Giles' fingers would be in one piece. Now the Scoobies are in the process of trying to give him his soul back, a courtesy they aren't willing to extend even to Willow in Season 3 when they think she's been turned (in Doppelgangland). Given that Buffy has repeatedly shown criminal levels of irresponsibility in dealing with Angelus even without any hope of getting Angel back, it is eminently reasonable of Xander to assume that she would stall for time if she knew that Angel might return at any moment.

If Buffy had known the truth with regard to Willow's spell, what exactly could she have done with the information? She could have stalled for time, which probably would have gotten her killed, as Angelus very nearly kills her even when she isn't stalling. (Not to mention the fact that there was no particular reason to believe that Willow's spell would work. She isn't exactly Super-Witch at that point, and she's never done anything like this before.) Or she could have done exactly what she did anyway, in which case Xander's lie is irrelevant.

But all of this is trivial compared to my original point: Angelus deserves to suffer. He deserves to get stabbed, he deserves to go to hell. It's true that, since Angel lost his soul, he isn't entirely responsible for his actions. But that is true of EVERY SINGLE VAMPIRE IN THE SERIES. Angel(us) does not deserve special privileges simply by virtue of being Buffy's boyfriend. And Xander is the only person who seems to understand this.

Buffy at least has the excuse of being blinded by love. What's Willow's excuse?

Ultimately I agree with you. Sure Xander may have had some jealousy issues with that statement but...

well I've said it before too, let me indulge in some copy pasta

I once wrote in a xander fan thread:

"Even the one major 'crime' I sometimes have heard about in season two when he doesn't tell Buffy Willows trying to restore Angels soul gets a pass from me. Sure he is jealous of Angel, always has been, but I think part of it is to protect Buffy so she doesn't go into the fight half-arsed trying to buy time for Angel to be re-souled.

1.) Angelus is not going to be holding anything back, so Xander, I think, knows Buffy needs her A game.

2.) The longer Angelus lives, the greater the chances of Acathala waking up and ruining everyones day.

I even understand his dislike for Spike and Angel, to a point. Ever since Jesse, in my eyes at least, Xander takes the deaths vampires cause very personally, especially if he knows the vamp or worse, the victim. I remember a scene when he gets in Giles face about Jenny's death...as far as Angel was concerned and how Giles was dealing with it! ( that was a 'what the heck is Xander doing' moment..I thought Giles was going to deck him! It made sense though given Xanders history and temperment; at least I thought so)

I think Xan resents vampires as a whole also because what they have done to one of his best friends life. She is the vampire slayer, and it that has robbed her of any sense of normalcy, except her friends. All in all, I can kind of understand where he's coming from."

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See, I agree with you, and something to keep in mind, if he told her or not it did not matter in the end result. Buffy I think knew Angelus was back to Angel again when she ran him through to save the world from the demon vacuum. She really had no choice at that point.

Xander could have told Buffy about Willows plan and she could have gone into that fight with hope that Angelus could be turned before the portal opened. In holding back she could have been killed, and then what would hold Angelus and Acathala back?

Xander is not a complete doof, he jokes about thingsbut I find him kind of bright as far as isssues and his friends are concerned. He had to know that Buffy and Willow would one day talk about Angel and the curse and that his lie would be outed. He did not want Angelus killed so badly that he would sacrifice his friendship with Buffy.

He would prefer, I think, that she lived through the encounter though, as well as everyone else. If she was willing to hate him over it I think he'd prefer risking a living Buffy hating him than a dead Buffy with everyone else in Acathala land.

So yeah, he gets a pass on this from me too. Not just that; I'll stand with you on something. I don't only understand why he did what he did, I agree with what he did, even if he eventually ended up second guessing himself over it.

/me agrees

i totally do and im not an angelus hater... but ye gods... if this was real, i would want buffy, no i did want buffy to kick his ass! he's beyond deserved it, angelus not angel.

if buffy had the thought in her head that willow could cure him, angelus would have killed her imo, took her weakness for angel and killed her.

It's true that Buffy should have dusted Angelus.
She had a really great opportunity already in Innocent. But she couldn't do it.
Which I can understand. It wasn't exactly long ago she was deeply in love in Angel. And to just turn that around and kill him can't be that easy.
She also do apolygize to Giles for that in Passion, it seems that he understands it better than many viewers.

About the spell, have I misunderstand something?
I always thought that the spell Jenny managed to translate was to capture Angels / Angelus soul. Not any vampires soul.

And to get to real point of this thread... personally I'm annoyed over the "Kick his ass" comment.
I just don't think it was Xander's call to make.
It was Buffy that was about to fight, she deserved the right to know what was going on imo.

/SK

Those points are all well and good, but Buffy is also 50% responsible. People died because of her actions, and inactions. If you do not hold BUFFY accountable for those deaths, then you CANNOT hold Angel accountable either.

if xander had told buffy about willow trying to restore the soul then i beleive buffy would not have fought any where near what she needed to survive the intence fight her and angelus had. angelus did deserve a good old ass woopin but at the same time he was not all to blame, buffy's actions did have some bad choices but who doesn't make bad choices at some point in there lifetime. angelus would have truely kicked her ass and killed her had xander told buffy about willow re-creating the curse, this makes me think that whilst xander was clearly jealous he couldn't be with buffy he was indeed doing her a favour and looking out for her by protecting her from this vital fact.

had she been told i can just see it now angelus goes to stab her when she is kneeling backed up to a wall and she doesnt catch the blade it gets her instead as she is too far off track thinking about the curse

You guys have some good points. If Xander had told her the truth, Buffy may have ended up dead. However, I think you're reading good intent into an action that was inherently bad-intentioned. I doubt Xander was thinking that deeply about it. He just didn't want to see Buffy and Angel get back together. He wanted Angel to die. He was perfectly willing to sacrifice Buffy's happiness--or force her to sacrifice her own happiness--for his own ego. Not only did he lie, he lied about Willow, putting words in her mouth that never would have actually passed her lips.

I suppose the real question, then, is, do the ends justify the means? Does it not matter that Xander lied because if he'd told the truth things may (I say MAY because I'm not entirely convinced they would have) turned out differently? I believe that he betrayed both Buffy and Willow--Buffy by not trusting her judgment and Willow by lying about her. I really wish they'd have dealt with it more in "Selfless."

As someone who considers truth to be one of the highest values in my life, I don't think Xander was right, like, at all. Whenever I see said scene, I gasp and stare in disbelief at what he's doing there, it's one of his worst character moments IMO (and no, standing up Anya at the altar doesn't even come close).

Worrying that Buffy could get killed - there's nothing wrong with the reasoning given above - would constitute sufficient grounds for just not telling her what Willow is doing; even though it still isn't really his call to make, he could have remained silent, or perhaps willfully wasting time walking slowly, making sure not to catch up with Buffy in time (after all, there is no really convincing reason for him being there, other than relaying the message... no, freeing Giles does not count. If all goes well, Buffy can free Giles after the fight. If all does not go well, Giles will be dead meat, no matter if he's still bound up up not.) However, he is not only omitting the true message, but relaying a false one. That will always register as utterly wrong in my book, not because of Angel(us) - whether or not he deserves to be saved and get his soul restored is not what matters here. It is wrong because it's a betrayal of Willow, a betrayal of their friendship. He is saying the complete opposite of what Willow told him to say as a message... that is not the acting of a friend, as he is, effectively, lying to both Willow and Buffy here. The lie shows that killing Angel(us) is more important to Xander than his friendship with either of the girls, and that's what makes it wrong - especially since Xander has always been the Zeppo whose raison d'etre as a Scooby is to be the heart of the Gang, the symbol of friendship itself - and he nixes that with three infamous words.

I'm adamant that for this line, Xander should have gotten his ass kicked. Hard and repeatedly.

This begs the question though B.B. and no one can really answer it...Does Xander hate Angelus so much that he would sacrifice any chance he might think he could have with Buffy?

Do you think that he cares so little for how much this action will hurt her and only wants revenge on Angelus for ego's sake or do you think he cares so much for her that he's willing to possibly sacrifice their relationship even as friends to save her life ( and everyone else) when the real truth undoubtedly will come out?

I guess the answer you choose depends on how you view Xander.

What I do know is that Buffy has a bad track record of fighting Angelus and Xander knows it. That if Angelus wakes Acathala everything goes to hell in a hand basket. Time is of the essence and Buffy is at a disadvantage.

Can you really prove one way or another that his motives are anything but his own, that they are either well or ill intended? I'm not sure what canon says further on this matter. I know I can't prove didly, but my heart gives me an idea on why I think it went down as it did.

I believe that it has nothing to do with ego though, in the end I think he was more concerned with Buffy and all of his friends living than any kind of pay back ego crap with Angel.

I might be wrong, but thats not how I see my Xander....he really seems rather ego-less than big vengenace guy.

Completely right... If Angelus wouldn't have been there, than Jenny would be alive yet! And Giles not heartbroken... Anyway though you might say she's blinded by love, Buffy still is the Slayer and should have followed her brains instead her heart when it came to Angelus.

Relic said:

This begs the question though B.B. and no one can really answer it...Does Xander hate Angelus so much that he would sacrifice any chance he might think he could have with Buffy?

Do you think that he cares so little for how much this action will hurt her and only wants revenge on Angelus for ego's sake or do you think he cares so much for her that he's willing to possibly sacrifice their relationship even as friends to save her life ( and everyone else) when the real truth undoubtedly will come out?

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I'm quite willing to assume that a good part of his reasons will be to save Buffy's life - not to mention the world - and not merely jealous revenge, even though noone will ever convince me that jealous revenge was not a sizeable part of his motives too.

However, the behavior is the same that gets Angel the most criticism, as it's the mistake Angel makes over and over again: deciding alone what's the best for others, over the heads of said others... and Angel usually isn't even lying when he does that. 😉

BB is right - the real question in judging those three words is, do the ends justify the means? And my usual answer to that is no... especially since, to quote Robbie Williams: when the truth dies, very bad things happen. 😀

I think that if he'd said anything--ANYTHING--else, it would have been better. Like, "Willow says to tell you she loves you" or "Willow says to tell you you're going to do great." But he chose a phrase that was loaded with his own animosity toward Angel--not just Angelus, but Angel--and attributed it to Willow, which, however you feel about him choosing not to relay the message, betrayed Willow on a deeper level than he betrayed Buffy.

I just saw it as a reminder to what she was suppose to do, kick Angelus ass and stop Acathala. Freudian slip maybe? it was certainly at the front of his mind, buffy wasn't going there to negotiate.

What most people are not looking at is the possible fall out Xander must have suspected will come of his lie. I don't see him risking his friendship out of jealousy for Angel or hate for Angelus.

To me that don't make sense.

Reminding his friend that she's likely going to have to kill the deamon wearing her boyfriends face, to save both herself and the world, that i can understand.

Xander is the heart of the group, I'm thinking if it would save Buffy and Willow, he's take a trade that might end with them hating him, just to save them.

vengeance just doesn't wash for a primary motive for me.

I'm actually glad they didn't crack down so hard on him. maybe they knew and got his motive better than we could, one way or another. they are his best friends afterall. 🙂

Relic agrees: To me premeditation matters more than the lie. I always thought Xander was doing a typical foot in the mouth, caught himself mid sentence, then lied knowing what the consequences of the truth might be. The truth is well and good; and sometimes not.

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All well and good, but consider what would have been going through his mind on his way trying to catch up with Buffy. Don't you think he would have thought about said consequences beforehand? I can definitely see him weighing the question whether or not to relay the message in his head all along the way to the mansion.

And even if it were totally spontaneous, I'd side with what BB just said, that ANYTHING would have been a better thing to say than that. A spontaneous betrayal of Willow is hardly any better than a premeditated one, IMO.

Thats where we disagree, and thats all good. If he had to choose between betraying Willow's feelings or Buffy dying by a spur off the moment/ cover for a slip of the tongue, I'm thinking he was playing ends justify means and imho chose the right decision.

The dead don't have the luxery to forgive, and by helping Buffy save herself, they are saving Willow too. More than just feelings were on the line here, lives were at stake. "you want the truth, you cant handle the truth" There is my quote 😉

There is also hardly anyway you'd convince me it was premediatated or he hatched this idea on the way to her. The way the line was delivered you can almost see the spontanity of it.

There's a good argument for why he did it, and I totally understand it and I don't think it's the worst thing he's done/could have done.

HOWEVER ... I believe that he had no right to do it. Whether it was jealousy or protectiveness so that she would fight better he simply had no right to make a decision that would mean Buffy was not completely informed going into a dangerous situation.
She knew as well as the others that Willow might not have succeded and she would have gone into the fight just the same as at this point she had resigned herelf to the fact that she would have to kill Angel.

In fact ... I have a problem with a lot of people making decisions for Buffy without her having a say in it ESPECIALLY in the first seasons. But that's a different story. 😀

We'll have to agree to disagree there, yes. I'm anal enough to rather die by the truth than live on by a lie. 😀

Relic said:

There is also hardly anyway you'd convince me it was premediatated or he hatched this idea on the way to her. The way the line was delivered you can almost see the spontanity of it.

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I didn't mean premeditated in the sense of "when I see Buffy in 10 minutes, I'll tell her Willow said: Kick his ass" 😛
If I had thought of him doing that, having his ass kicked wouldn't suffice. That would have called for instant exscoobyfication - no questions asked, no quarter given.

I see the delivery of the line with that pause as the moment he decides to lie, yes - so it's "partially spontaneous", if you will... but I do see him weighing the options of relaying it or not, beforehand.

To break it up into the component phases:

He's keeping his options open whether or not to say it until the last second... - no ethical problem with it up to here -
...then starting to say it (probably even himself seeing the "what use do I have being here if I don't say it" Zeppo argument?) - no ethical problem either, quite on the contrary! -
...but then, at the last moment deciding not to give the message... - entering ethical grey zone -
...and instead to tell an awful, trust- and friendship-betraying lie. - no justification possible -

I'm not saying that's the only way you can read the scene, but to me that seems more plausible than "total" spontaneity.

Besides, the betrayal is always there, spontaneous or not... so the question is, if you have to choose between two values that cannot be upheld at the same time (preservation of life vs. both trust/friendship an truth, in this case), which one do you rate as the higher value and preserve it? As in all ethical philosophy, that's bound to be a personal and subjective answer... and my answer obviously differs from both yours and Xander's. 🙂

I was completely with Xander in Becoming. When he gave his speech in the library, I was waiving my little Xanman pom poms and going "YEAH!" By the end of Season 2, after seeing what Angelus was capable of, I definitely knew the character had to be stopped and that Buffy needed to do it. I understood why the others wanted to cure him and stop it, but at the same time, at that moment Angelus was completely evil and deserved to die. Now, when they DID restore his soul and it was ANGEL and not ANGELUS that Buffy had to "kill" it tore my heart apart.
That's the major reason you have to respect and love David as an actor. When he played Angel, he played the role with such sincerity and romance that you fell in love with him the moment you saw him. But as Angelus, he was equally chilling and gruesome, and that's when you had to wake up and go "WOW that guy's got major acting chops".

I think that, by lying and manipulating, Xander took a flying leap from his moral high-horse and landed rather uncomfortably near Angel. Up until this point, sure, he had the moral high ground. He was RIGHT, even if he was kind of an ass about it. But then he loses it because he resorts to methods that his "enemy" would use.

Blondie Bear said:

I think that, by lying and manipulating, Xander took a flying leap from his moral high-horse and landed rather uncomfortably near Angel. Up until this point, sure, he had the moral high ground. He was RIGHT, even if he was kind of an ass about it. But then he loses it because he resorts to methods that his "enemy" would use.

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He might have lied about it, but I still loved him for it. 🙂
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"Blondie Bear agrees: And you're perfectly entitled to do so. I, on the other hand, despised him for 2 more seasons. 🙂"


LMAO We'll have to agree to disagree... 🙂 Just because you don't love Xander like me doesn't make you wrong and I can admit that! 😉