Discussion of "Angel After the Fall #15" - Released 17/12/08 (IDW)

I wasn't content with everything in this issue. I would have preferred if it had been a little bit longer and the references to Brian's previous Spike series were laid on a bit thick. But apart from that wonderful.

I love how the series is coming to a conclusion.

I feel sorry for Groo. I know that as a character he was maybe a bit flat, but he was all good and that's what makes me appreciate him.

I can't believe that Connor died. I didn't see it coming and frankly, I still don't believe it. I want him back, he was growing into such a cool character, and in many ways he was becoming an equal to Spike and Angel.

I'm glad Nina is still around. I know many people dislike her, but I wonder if they've realised that they probably know a Nina too. I know I do. There's a couple of people in my life who just hang on and who like people a lot more than people like them, but still hang on, because they don't really have any place else. I guess I pity her.

Is Illyria really gone? Was that everything? I highly doubt it. Can you really even kill an old one? Even with a gigantic dragon-jet army? I'm glad Beta George finally had a role to play in all this.

I do wonder who will survive. I doubt there's a lot more story to be told about Wesley and Gunn. Their stories have reached their climaxes. Spike's feeling a little bit tired too. Illyria, Groo, Connor: gone. Spider might be among the casualties. I don't think many people would mind if Nina were offed, so since her death wouldn't have much of an impact, she might survive. Angel himself is on Garner's cover to #16 waving goodbye. Will it really be only Lorne and Beta George starring in Aftermath?

Cant believe they killed off more Angel charecters, if we didnt know about Aftermath then I would think they would go ahead and kill off Angel and Spike and ahve that be the end of the Angelverse canon wise.

Don't sell Joss short. He could STILL kill off all of the characters, and have "Angel: Aftermath" be the "aftermath" of all of that death and destruction where a completely different cast tries to put LA back together.

Yeah, I can certainly imagine Joss doing a "Blake's 7" here and wiping out the whole cast. It would be entirely within character for him.

The man frightens me at times.

Allycat said:

I'm glad Nina is still around. I know many people dislike her, but I wonder if they've realised that they probably know a Nina too. I know I do. There's a couple of people in my life who just hang on and who like people a lot more than people like them, but still hang on, because they don't really have any place else. I guess I pity her.

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I don't mind Nina as long as she's not with Angel :: vampire

Did anyone else think this issue was abit cheesy and that if it was on tv it would have suffered from overacting?

And now that Spike's admitted he and the fish go way back, does that make the non canon comic where they know each other canon?

and most importantly, and i can't believe none of you picked up on this, "She's trained them well." She? I always thought that the slayerettes that Gunn had were just normal girls until the fall and then Gunn found them, realised they were slayers, told them about it and trained them. But she? Does that mean they already knew they were slayers and met Buffy? If so, what were they doing in LA? Surely Buffy knew that Angel could handle anything that happened there, he didn't really need 3 Slayerettes as backup. Or did she send them on a reconnaissance mission? And if so, does she already know about Spike?!

Clem Rocks said:

and most importantly, and i can't believe none of you picked up on this, "She's trained them well." She? I always thought that the slayerettes that Gunn had were just normal girls until the fall and then Gunn found them, realised they were slayers, told them about it and trained them. But she? Does that mean they already knew they were slayers and met Buffy? If so, what were they doing in LA? Surely Buffy knew that Angel could handle anything that happened there, he didn't really need 3 Slayerettes as backup. Or did she send them on a reconnaissance mission? And if so, does she already know about Spike?!

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More likely, the Slayerettes in LA were either left there after "Damaged," or sent there soon afterwords, probably under orders from Giles to "keep an eye" on Angel and the goings on at Wolfram and Hart. That would seem logical, considering Andrew's "you're not one of the good guys anymore" speech. And, it wouldn't be the first time that Giles did something behind Buffy's back "for her own good." It's a theme that Joss and his writers have seemed to use way too much over the course of the two series, and it's consistent with Giles' character (Angel's too, for that matter, which might add a bit of irony to it.)

As for the "she" referred to as their trainer, if my Giles theory holds any water, it could very well have been one of the Sunnydale Potentials/Slayers, most likely Kennedy during one of her and Willow's separations. That would explain their less than stellar performances against Gunn and his crew. Time loop room or no time loop room, I can't picture Buffy or any of "her" troops not being able to figure out what was happening and escape somehow.

I really felt like Connor was just coming into his own. In the show he was a character who existed only as a foil for Angel, but in the comics he began to independently develop into a good and rich character (In fact, him and Spike are the only characters who POP for me like the Buffy Season Eight characters). There seems to be a trend to either kill or emotionally ruin all characters when they become too independent or rich - and it seems to have carried over too the comic. No one can distract from Angel - it is only a matter of time it seems till they find a way to get rid of spike or ruin him.

Why won't Joss allow Angel to become a real ensemble show/comic like Buffy? The centering on a single character is fine to an extent, but the trend I stated above is getting old fast.

white avenger said:

As for the "she" referred to as their trainer, if my Giles theory holds any water, it could very well have been one of the Sunnydale Potentials/Slayers, most likely Kennedy during one of her and Willow's separations. That would explain their less than stellar performances against Gunn and his crew. Time loop room or no time loop room, I can't picture Buffy or any of "her" troops not being able to figure out what was happening and escape somehow.

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I like your Giles theory, it fits. However, "she" does not have to refer to someone other than Buffy. Even though they may really have been trained by someone other than Buffy, the L.A. cast would simply assume Buffy had trained them - they wouldn't know the nuances of the Giles/Kennedy/Slayers stuff.

I can see Buffy having send them though . . . But I like the Giles theory better.

It's Angel's curse. He can't have a family or be happy. I read an essay where the writer pointed out that when they removed Angel's soul in season 4, the shaman walked Angel through a fantasy - Angel's idea of perfect happiness which was meant to reflect how Angel has changed and grown since he lost his soul on Buffy. On BtVS, it just sex with Buffy that did it. When the shaman instigates the fantasy Angel's idea of perfect happiness has grown. He's got to have Cordelia's love, be right with Conner, and have Wesley and Gunn friends again - essentially having the family. When he goes to bed with Cordy, he's got it all and that is what triggers his soul loss.

RuhiWarrior19 said:

I really felt like Connor was just coming into his own. In the show he was a character who existed only as a foil for Angel, but in the comics he began to independently develop into a good and rich character (In fact, him and Spike are the only characters who POP for me like the Buffy Season Eight characters). There seems to be a trend to either kill or emotionally ruin all characters when they become too independent or rich - and it seems to have carried over too the comic. No one can distract from Angel - it is only a matter of time it seems till they find a way to get rid of spike or ruin him.

Why won't Joss allow Angel to become a real ensemble show/comic like Buffy? The centering on a single character is fine to an extent, but the trend I stated above is getting old fast.

I like your Giles theory, it fits. However, "she" does not have to refer to someone other than Buffy. Even though they may really have been trained by someone other than Buffy, the L.A. cast would simply assume Buffy had trained them - they wouldn't know the nuances of the Giles/Kennedy/Slayers stuff.

I can see Buffy having send them though . . . But I like the Giles theory better.

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Chase Summers said:

It's Angel's curse. He can't have a family or be happy. I read an essay where the writer pointed out that when they removed Angel's soul in season 4, the shaman walked Angel through a fantasy - Angel's idea of perfect happiness which was meant to reflect how Angel has changed and grown since he lost his soul on Buffy. On BtVS, it just sex with Buffy that did it. When the shaman instigates the fantasy Angel's idea of perfect happiness has grown. He's got to have Cordelia's love, be right with Conner, and have Wesley and Gunn friends again - essentially having the family. When he goes to bed with Cordy, he's got it all and that is what triggers his soul loss.

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Sure, I understand that, but it doesn't mean the show/comic can't have any other strong characters last for a while, they don't necessarily have to love Angel to be strong well developed characters.

Plus, couldn't we say that Angel's curse is gone now that he is human? He has his soul, and short of Spike re-siring him he shouldn't be returning to Angelus. Now his bad life and relationships are only his own fault, not any gypsy curse or vamp-ness.

white avenger said:

More likely, the Slayerettes in LA were either left there after "Damaged," or sent there soon afterwords, probably under orders from Giles to "keep an eye" on Angel and the goings on at Wolfram and Hart. That would seem logical, considering Andrew's "you're not one of the good guys anymore" speech. And, it wouldn't be the first time that Giles did something behind Buffy's back "for her own good." It's a theme that Joss and his writers have seemed to use way too much over the course of the two series, and it's consistent with Giles' character (Angel's too, for that matter, which might add a bit of irony to it.)

As for the "she" referred to as their trainer, if my Giles theory holds any water, it could very well have been one of the Sunnydale Potentials/Slayers, most likely Kennedy during one of her and Willow's separations. That would explain their less than stellar performances against Gunn and his crew. Time loop room or no time loop room, I can't picture Buffy or any of "her" troops not being able to figure out what was happening and escape somehow.

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Unless Andrew or Spike gave Angel a very detailed review of what happened back in Sunnydale, Angel wouldn't even know who Kennedy is, the only "she" Angel would really know is Buffy. and as for Buffy and her troops not being able to figure it out, Buffy didn't figure out the Trio's time trick back in season 6, did she?