Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned To Stop Seething And Love "As You Were"

Check out this great article on "As You Were":

Stupid Shit - Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned To Stop Seething And Love "As You Were"

It will cause you to see the episode very differently.

Now, discuss. What do we think of this article?

Someone posted this link in a different thread. (It may have been you, in fact...don't remember.)

But yeah, I found it utterly fascinating and I do view the episode differently now. I'm not sure everything in that article is true, but a lot of it does make sense.

Yeah, I always thought that Spike was framed.

I don't really know. If there was some agenda behind it then agenda there is. Otherwise I don't think that there's some kind of conspiracy on Riley's part, doofus as he is at times.

Makes me wish my season six wasn't stuck back in the bedroom with my sleeping husband and infant. I think I could buy every bite of this article. If it is true, though, I wish the episode had been written better -- as in clearer, so you don't have to be an expert on Machiavelli to piece it all together.

I always thought it was strange and out of (current) character that Spike would do something like this, that it was far-fetched that he could have secretly operated as "The Doctor" without Buffy or anyone else picking up on it.

I also thought that Buffy broke up with him ultimately because he did something very wrong, with other, deeper reasons underpinning her decision. So if this article is correct, it makes me wonder if perhaps Buffy didn't have to break up with him then and that they could have stayed together, at least for a little while longer! ::crying2:

Very sad, I know. I could have appreicated some more shirtless Spike scenes 😉

Wait, was I the only one here who thought that Spike was framed the whole time?

EDIT: Just saw that white_avenger was with me on this. Sweet.

The author of the article's done a good job on making the episode's plot completely coherent though, I was just kinda speculating all the time rather than tying up all the loose ends. This person is the Buffy fan that we should all aspire to be.

Aha. Pretty much ever since White Avenger presented his Spike-was-framed theory, I've been on board with it, but I wasn't entirely sure exactly how it went down. I knew the Machiavelli reference was important--these writers don't do ANYTHING that isn't important (okay, not until S7, anyway)--but I didn't quite put it together. And she's right about camera angles and stuff; I hadn't considered that. I'd thought it was a convenient fade-out to something they can't show on TV and that particular angle was just because it put the couple behind a tree. Silly me.

As for Riley being too much of a doofus to pull this off--I don't think so. There's no doofus left when he comes back. No bumbling, eager-to-please, wannabe-soldier-boy. He's tight and controlled and keeps everything inside. Besides, who's to say he hasn't had a plan similar to this in the back of his mind as soon as he knew the Suvolte was headed to Sunnydale? And it just came together when he saw Spike and Buffy?

Besides, don't Buffy guys have kind of a bad habit of making decisions for other people without consulting them? Angel? Xander? Giles? Why should Riley be any different?

See, this is why I love this show. There's always SO MUCH MORE to discover.

I think that's part of we all love it, there are so many little things that mean so much.That's why we're still debating what exactly happned 5 years later. Buffy is, as the article says, the land of the meanigful non-sequitur. I love the article (I was the one who posted it on the Spuffy Realm) it still leaves a few holes in the episode but I'm willing to put up with them to sustian the greater metaphore.

Funny, I just thought that Spike was a capitalist and didnt think he would get caught; what was shown more often- Spike on the hunt and doing things for money, or Riley being ANYTHING but dishonest?

Something else: The Doctor was described as an international arms dealer. A business like that requires huge amounts of capital (okay, Spike had the contents of the Gem of Amara treasure vault, but bear with me here), a fairly extensive team of people working for you, just to handle the logistics of procurement, transportation, storage, inspection and repair, if necessary (can't afford to sell your clients defective weaponry. They tend to come back mad carrying working weapons), and, finally, delivery. But most of all, you need the proper contacts. Even if Spike did do a little small time procurement and delivery, it would be the equivalent of someone selling stolen handguns out of the trunk of their car. Imagine that small time dealer accidentally coming into possession of some sort of thermonuclear device. He's got the goods, but no buyer, and no way to get in contact with a buyer of something like that.

Spike might, and I emphasize MIGHT, serve as a go between/delivery boy in such a deal, which would fit in with his "holding them for a friend" story, but he could not possibly be the Doctor.

Most likely, Spike was just keeping "something," he didn't know what, for "someone," he didn't know who, for a fee, which probably wasn't very much in proportion to what he really had, or he might have gotten suspicious.

Much more likely, the Suvolte demon was government property being used in a sting operation, which is the real reason why Riley didn't want it killed, in order to draw the Doctor out and kill/capture him. Spike was probably just the unwitting delivery boy, and Riley was just exploiting the situation in order to get one more dig at Spike.

I couldn't even finish that...that dude had one of the most annoying writing styles I think I've ever seen...though I never minded As You Were so I think he and I were on the same page somewhat...

I think the writer of that essay disliked Riley too much and allowed that dislike to color his view of the situation.

Spike had never denied his actions in "As You Were". Granted, he wanted to raise money to help Buffy. But that doesn't mean he was right to do what he had done.

As for Riley destroying Buffy's relationship with Spike . . . the author was speaking of a relationship in which Spike was being used as Buffy's bed warmer/sex toy. Frankly, Buffy comes off less impressive than either Riley or Spike.


The problem wasn't Riley. The problem was the relationship between Buffy and Spike.

It wasn't right to what? Hold some eggs so he could help Buffy pay the bills? I don't even think he knew what they were.

LadyLavinia said:

I think the writer of that essay disliked Riley too much and allowed that dislike to color his view of the situation.

Spike had never denied his actions in "As You Were". Granted, he wanted to raise money to help Buffy. But that doesn't mean he was right to do what he had done.

As for Riley destroying Buffy's relationship with Spike . . . the author was speaking of a relationship in which Spike was being used as Buffy's bed warmer/sex toy. Frankly, Buffy comes off less impressive than either Riley or Spike.


The problem wasn't Riley. The problem was the relationship between Buffy and Spike.

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I agree with the first part. The constant Riley hate made me a little more skeptical than I would have been. (Blondie Bear's post did bring me back a little though.)

I can't really see Spike being the Doctor at all. The point about Doc was also quite interesting - however, I do think that this is one of the many arguments that a dedicated fan will see where a writer will not. It's the comparisons to the other episodes that Petrie has written that really makes me see it in a different light.

I thought it was a great article. A strange writing style that actually works when you get the flow, starts to feel like a conversation you would have in your head, sidetracks and all.

It definitely is a neat take on an unusually incoherent and not-up-to-snuff plot from a normally great writer. I never liked As You Were. I didn't feel like it made a lot of sense. The plot holes were too numerous. This article really makes me think that there is a chance that what Ia always hoped is true: that something brilliant is happening in As You Were and I was just too much of a dunce to see it.

Hmm... maybe I'll give this ep a second chance.

This conspiracy theory is just that: a conspiracy theory. How is it far fetched that vampire that's over a hundred years old and killed two slayers is able to broker what is essentially a demonic WMD in the Hellmouth. Andrew could sell those things in Sunnydale. Keep in mind that Sam only said foreign military powers would be interested in the eggs, not that the dealer had ties with these people. In addition, If you were a military power where would you look for something like this? Hmm. A Hellmouthy type place I bet! This episode wasn't about Riley subverting Buffy and Spike's "relationship". It wasn't even really about the story. It was about Buffy finding her inner power again. Buffy was feeling down about herself and how her life was going. Riley helped her realise that who she was didn't change with the Double Burger, or her sexcapades with Spike. Buffy ended it with Spike because she got back in touch with herself.

I always disliked Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike because I felt that she was lessening herself. The Doubleburger was a job it never bothered me but it clearly bothered her. Nobody wants the hero to be weak but like the show points out she's just a girl. She was weak and used Spike, but what I love about this episode is that she is able to return to her Buffyness. Something she never lost but had strayed from. Buffy and Spike's nonsexual but intimate relationship that takes place after he has his soul back is the inverse of the using that takes place in season 6.

P.S. Spike was lame after season 5.

BookemDanno said:

P.S. Spike was lame after season 5.

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I started to read what you said until i glanced to the bottom and saw this... I respect your shameless antiSpike hate but it lead to me ignoring anything you have to say on this subject since your clearly quite biased.

...as am I. 🙂

To the fan of spike, this is an obvious theory thats completely in your face and manages to fill every plot hole very well from a writer who doesnt usually create plot holes

From a spike hater (see above), obviously the mere contemplation that spike could be redeemed or that this just furthers the extent of his character is an idea that should be shunned at all costs.


...Do we actually expect to see a clear decision on whether this 'conspiracy theory' was intended?

BookemDanno said:

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P.S. Spike was lame after season 5.

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As opposed to Angel, who was lame from "Welcome To The Hellmouth" until he left Sunnydale at the end of Season 3, and for at least 15 episodes of his own show's first season.

The matter of comparative lameness of the two vampires, however, has nothing to do with the fact that this episode has more plot holes in it than the story that I wrote for a 3rd grade essay contest (the Martians kidnapped Santa Claus in order to prevent Christmas, but he was rescued by the Lone Ranger). And, granted, the conspiracy theory is just that: a theory, but it fills in a whole lot of those holes in a quite logical manner.