But that's exactly what empathy is. Being able to feel the same feelings for someone else. To say that Spike can only empathise at certain times or feel that way for feelings he has felt himself is a just an excuse as to why he doesn't stop himself in Seeing Red. He is capable of empathy, not only in certain situations but in general.
As to the whether what Spike can do is empathy or not, I think we won't reach common ground. Saying that it is would mean, to me, that the whole fuss about soul or no soul is moot... and then the Angel arc about "look I dropped two letters from my name, woe is me,
I care now!" is dripping hypocrisy (and, see above, that'd disgust me more than mass murder in and of itself). If a soulless creature can feel empathy, then
Angel = Angelus, the only difference is that when he calls himself Angelus, he is
more likeable because at least he's
honest about the whole deal, lacking the disgusting charade he puts on while he goes by his "us"-less nickname. Just because some old Gypsy lady conjured up a shiny light effect doesn't change feck about him, in this case, except for giving Angelus a cheap alibi for calling himself a hero and fast-talking himself out of the range of Mr Pointy's business end. Epic fail on the "curse" business for the Calderash, I daresay.
😀 The whole eating rats gig may well be one of Angelus' mind games... sure, he's taking a remarkably long view keeping the charade up for the better part of a century, but I wouldn't put that beyond a mastermind of manipulation like him. And he's even got an excuse for venting some pent-up steam whenever some gal gives him the happies. Now that's convenient!
😉
Empathy is a basic human feeling, with more and more research suggesting that it's a pretty basic feeling within most animals too. I don't want to get into a huge debate here because I won't change my mind, lol. The ability to empathise is a positive attribute of Spike's character that he puts aside in order to get what he wants, ergo I hold a grudge.
I also have to disagree with you here, in general. I think you take facts that are correct, but draw a conclusion out of them that goes too far.
Empathy is NOT a supernatural clairvoyance/ESP thing. If there were such a thing as a human being who never felt sadness, said person looking at someone crying because of something the never-been-sad person's doing, a reaction of "why is water coming from this persons eyes?" and going right on with whatever he's doing to make them cry would
not be lack of empathy. There's simply nothing to mirror, because the experience to relate to
is not there within the empath's body of knowledge. I could not hold said (very hypothetical) person responsible for the pain caused by pushing on with what he/she's doing. There's not a drop of cruelty in knowingly making someone cry if you have no way of knowing "cry = sad".
And, likewise, it is not rape to have sex with someone yelling "no, stop" if you have no way of knowing "no, stop = this is against my will". Buffy - and again,
Buffy alone is responsible for that part - had successfully established "no, stop" to be teasingly egging someone on into hot, fun,
consensual sex. Whether or not "no stop" had been a rape signal with
other people in Spike's past doesn't even enter the picture. It's Buffy, she's The Slayer. It may well be one of the several things setting her apart from the mundane girl next door, just like super strength, speed, and the odd visionary dream here and then. I
cannot blame Spike for that.
Even if Spike
were empathic, he could only compare to what he knows himself. In that case, though, you'd be right in saying he would
not be able to ignore that there was a distinct difference in emotional tone between "no stop" = "try harder baby, you're getting there" and "no stop" = "
please stop, you're hurting and scaring me". Being hurt and scared before,
generically,
are things a hypothetical empathic Spike would be able to compare to.
In my opinion, Spike is not able to feel empathy on that level, because if he could, not only would it stretch my suspension of disbelief o breaking point (having a "basic trait" other vampires lack removes Spike from being a vampire A LOT further than you and I a removed from a goldhamster; even evolutionary mutation can't account for that), but also the whole mythology makes no sense at all with the "soul thing" anymore - which, as collateral, destroys
Angel's character totally. If the soul makes no difference about whether or not someone "feels" empathy, then Angelus had the choice of caring all along, because he must obviously have felt it. Holding that view makes no sense to me, unless we indeed assume that "Angel" is just the charade Angelus put up to make sure he keeps his get-off-the-stake-free card, and even gets to boink a (pretty gullible) Slayer in the process.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that you, as a Bangel, would be willing to pay the price of turning Bangel into the story of a gullible teenaged girl sleeping with the enemy, a mastermind manipulator (who happens to be a serial killer and rapist and, behind his charade of regret, still thinks there was no part of it all that wasn't fun) pretending to be a hero - just to be able to accuse Spike of trying to rape Buffy and hold a grudge for him.
😉
Besides, we'd then have to argue about whether Warren Meers had a "soul". He clearly didn't
care, even though, being human, he
must have had the basic trait of empathy. And don't even get me to open the box of worms labelled "free will" (tagged to the question whether or not The United States of Jasminia would have been paradise on Earth, and thus whether Angel Investigations was one of the most viciously destructive Big Bads the 'verse has ever seen). If having a soul
forces you into a specific reaction about something you feel with or without it (which could well be the last straw of rationalization Bangels could grasp for
😛 ), proponents of "free will" should consider having a soul to be a Very Bad Thing Indeed.
😉
Rape and attempted rape is not justified in any way by the victim's previous actions. If someone says no, it means no. It doesn't mean "well maybe, keep trying."
In that case, Buffy not only
attempted rape on Spike, but actually
went through with it.
Thus, from a "retributive justice", eye for an eye view, not only did she bring it on herself, but she actually
deserved it. Spike's actions in SR actually seem harmless compared to Buffy's actions in "Gone", if you put your theory to an absolute.
Less power to the "Spike is evil" tally, he still seems a nicer person than Buffy is.
😛
