The Chip: a Pseudo-Soul?

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zobothehobo

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In psychology today, we were talking about the Id, Ego, and Superego... and suddenly it hit me... Everyone says the chip was not a soul, which is true... and Spike changed with the chip... but why did he change? The soul is your superego, it tells the Id it can't have everything it wants. The Id works on the pleasure principal and the Superego says "NO" to pretty much everything. The chip worked as a pseudo-superego saying "no" to Spike's pleasure principal and he had to work around the fact he couldn't do everything he wanted. This allowed him to psychologically build back his humanity which allowed him to make the decision to go get his soul. In another discussion, someone kept saying Spike is a psychopath... but he's not because psychopaths don't have the psychological capacity for humanity. Spike had that and that's what allowed him to develop. I used this example in class and it provided a pretty good discussion. What do you guys think?
 
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Ms.Trick
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I think that's a really good way of looking at it. The only complication when comparing a soul to the superego is that the superego is societally learned but it totally works to demonstrate the idea. I think the chip was the biggest factor in Spike's transformation. Hmm... Maybe the initiative was on to something. =P
 
VisionGirl
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Firstly, Spike as a soulless vampire was a little different from Angelus for example. He did retain more of his humanity (as the Judge said). I think that combined with the chip and his relationship with Buffy led to his developing the desire for a soul. Without a soul, though, I don't think he would have developed into an exact replica of an ensouled vampire on his own.
 
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DarlingVioletta
Exactly, there is no way he could have done it on his own but that and his love of buffy was obviously the driving force.
Oh, the old good Id,Ego and Superego. Studied them in high school, got my thesis on it and found them again at the university. So...here's what I think: the chip somewhat works as a soul but not in the same way.When the chip hurts Spike it's purely pain, physical pain that can't really allow him to do anything he pleasures. I don't think Spike is a psychopath but I don't think the chip acting as a superego made him built back his humanity on a psychological level and got him to the decision of getting a soul; up until Seeing Red Spike had no idea of how a humans feels and what is right or wrong and really feeling it. I know he did some good in season 5 and I respect this but it doesn't come from deep inside of him simply because he doesn't have a soul. It took the shock, full shock to make him realize it's not gonna work like this. So..yes, the chop can be seen as a superego but one that doesn't touch him deep, it's only physical. Humans are governed by superego and we don't do stuff the Id wants because we find reasons in our souls and minds (especially society related like "what would they say if I did this") not to do it. Spike didn't have that..he understood it better in Season 7. I don't know if this makes any sense..to sum it up I 50% agree, 50% not agree. 😛
 
I'm not saying the chip MADE him regain his humanity... It allowed for it. There were of course other factors, mainly Buffy and his relationship with her...
 
VisionGirl
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StarSlayer
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TaylorSwift
I know..but I think the played a very little part and yes, maybe it allowed him to regain his humanity bust somewhat it doesn't convince me too much.
zobothehobo said:
In psychology today, we were talking about the Id, Ego, and Superego... and suddenly it hit me... Everyone says the chip was not a soul, which is true... and Spike changed with the chip... but why did he change? The soul is your superego, it tells the Id it can't have everything it wants. The Id works on the pleasure principal and the Superego says "NO" to pretty much everything. The chip worked as a pseudo-superego saying "no" to Spike's pleasure principal and he had to work around the fact he couldn't do everything he wanted. This allowed him to psychologically build back his humanity which allowed him to make the decision to go get his soul. In another discussion, someone kept saying Spike is a psychopath... but he's not because psychopaths don't have the psychological capacity for humanity. Spike had that and that's what allowed him to develop. I used this example in class and it provided a pretty good discussion. What do you guys think?
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I definitely don't think Spike is a psychopath. Now, Angelus maybe...

It's really interesting how you used psychological terms to describe Spike's situation with the chip. It definitely seems like the chip acted as a pseudo-superego, as you said. It reminds me of what Dru said to Spike in "Crush." She mentioned how the electricity in the chip was telling Spike he wasn't a killer, but he was. Yet, now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it was Spike's Id telling him he was still a killer. For him, that was his pleasure (violence and the kill), particularly before getting the chip. But, when the chip was implanted, he could no longer get that pleasure, at least with humans. And the chip allowed bits of his own humanity to come back, resurface if you will, since he did show signs of his humanity after being sired. At that time, his pleasure was also to see his mom happy. I do think Spike wanted the people he loved the most to be happy and not want to hurt them, as shown through his mother, Dru, and Buffy, even though he didn't have a soul. Maybe that was his Id too.
 
zobothehobo said:
In psychology today, we were talking about the Id, Ego, and Superego... and suddenly it hit me... Everyone says the chip was not a soul, which is true... and Spike changed with the chip... but why did he change? The soul is your superego, it tells the Id it can't have everything it wants. The Id works on the pleasure principal and the Superego says "NO" to pretty much everything. The chip worked as a pseudo-superego saying "no" to Spike's pleasure principal and he had to work around the fact he couldn't do everything he wanted. This allowed him to psychologically build back his humanity which allowed him to make the decision to go get his soul. In another discussion, someone kept saying Spike is a psychopath... but he's not because psychopaths don't have the psychological capacity for humanity. Spike had that and that's what allowed him to develop. I used this example in class and it provided a pretty good discussion. What do you guys think?
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Interesting theory which would make a lot of sense, well thought out too. 🙂
 
More than anything, I think that's fascinating. I love the fact that you're looking at this in such an interesting way. I think you're probably right, which is good because often people comment on the whole Spike/chip/soul thing.
 
I see what you're saying. I never would consider Spike's chip a "psuedo-soul", however, because even though he had the chip he still had evil impulses and things.
 
HisMrs said:
I see what you're saying. I never would consider Spike's chip a "psuedo-soul", however, because even though he had the chip he still had evil impulses and things.
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Who doesn't have evil impulses? Our souls don't keep us from having evil impulses and thoughts... they allow us to feel and know those evil impulses and thoughts are wrong. Souls also don't stop people from making evil choices or doing evil things. They allow people to feel remorse and regret for those choices and evil deeds.
 
There's more to the soul than not doing wrong. If chipped-Spike saw a kid about to be run over he wouldn't save them because he has no sense of right and wrong, only punishment and reward.

The chip is no substitute for a soul, only when he gets it back is he worthy of Buffy's love
 
saturn5 said:
There's more to the soul than not doing wrong. If chipped-Spike saw a kid about to be run over he wouldn't save them because he has no sense of right and wrong, only punishment and reward.

The chip is no substitute for a soul, only when he gets it back is he worthy of Buffy's love
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I know that... but I'm saying it allowed for him to develop some understanding of right and wrong. It didn't give him understanding... it allowed for it to develop to an extent because it hindered him from doing what he wanted when he wanted...
 
Comparing Spike's chip to a soul would be like comparing a muzzle on a potentially vicious dog to proper training and obedience classes. One restrains the destructive intentions by way of artificial means, which might fail unexpectedly at any time, while the other actually instills a permanent set of natural restraints that will always be enforced, and will never fail (in theory, anyhow. We all know that just having a soul implies neither the natural desire to be good nor the conscience to regret being bad)
 
zobothehobo said:
I know that... but I'm saying it allowed for him to develop some understanding of right and wrong. It didn't give him understanding... it allowed for it to develop to an extent because it hindered him from doing what he wanted when he wanted...
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It didn't allow him to develop an understanding of right or wrong at all. It forced him to adapt to a new situation and what he learned was the best way to manipulate that situation to get what he needed/wanted to survive. So in practice that was him being unable to feed so he had to rely on the Scoobies to provide for him. They were unwilling to help him with due reasons so he gave them reasons to reward him. He helped them out, fought, got info etc. He didn't do this because he had new understanding of right or wrong. He did it because it was necessary to his survival.

Like WA has just said. He was muzzled, he was not enlightened or evolved.
 
He DID develop feelings of right and wrong though... he WAS horrified with himself after the AR... he DID feel remorse... he DID go in search of a soul. In Tabula Rasa, he didn't feel the need to do evil... he felt the need to do good. He had forgotten he had the chip, and when he learned he was a vampire, he told Buffy he feel no desire to bite her. He described himself as Angel... a vampire with a soul on a mission of redemption... helping the hopeless. I'm not saying the chip was a soul by any means... honestly, if you read the initial post, it doesn't compare the chip to a soul as much as it does a superego.. a more fitting title for this thread would be "The Chip: a Pseudo-Superego" rather than "Pseudo-Soul."

The chip wasn't a soul... but it hindered him from doing what he wanted when he wanted enough to be able to develop a basic sense of right and wrong and a basic moral compass.
 
Kean said:
It didn't allow him to develop an understanding of right or wrong at all. It forced him to adapt to a new situation and what he learned was the best way to manipulate that situation to get what he needed/wanted to survive. So in practice that was him being unable to feed so he had to rely on the Scoobies to provide for him. They were unwilling to help him with due reasons so he gave them reasons to reward him. He helped them out, fought, got info etc. He didn't do this because he had new understanding of right or wrong. He did it because it was necessary to his survival.

Like WA has just said. He was muzzled, he was not enlightened or evolved.
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Beat the drums! Sound the trumpets. Call out the dancing girls! Miss K and WA actually AGREE on something about Spike!!!

Sort of...

Yes, Spike did adapt to his new situation. He had to in order to survive. It wasn't like he had never done it before. If he hadn't been able to adapt, or at least blend into, vampire society, specifically as dictated by Angelus, he wouldn't have survived that, either. That's simple logic and adaptation.

And, yes, having a chip had nothing to do with any sense of right or wrong. (And this is where our trails diverge once more) Mainly, because Spike always knew, just as all vampires know, the difference between right and wrong just as much as any normal human being does. The difference is, with vampires and certain deviant humans, they simply don't care. It's strictly a question of survival. A vampire, in order to exist, has to function well enough in human society to least give the impression that he is human, which means that he certainly would have to distinguish between the things that he would be allowed to do in order to blend in, and those that he would not be allowed to do, at least openly and in public. Knowing right from wrong would have to be as necessary a skill for a vampire as the ability to stalk and cut the weakest of a herd of gazelles out for prey is to a feral lion.

Spike, Angelus, Darla, Harmony, Drusilla, and all of the other vampires knew the difference between right and wrong, in both their own society and that of humans. It was a matter of survival that they did so.

Right and wrong are, arguably, simply arbitrary rules dictated by whatever society we live in, possibly, but not necessarily, tempered by our own personal convictions. Vampires operate under two separate right/wrong standards, depending on whether they are with other vampires, or with humans.
 
But the Chip did play a part in eventually leading Spike to desire a soul. So it was more than just being muzzled...although I can't really explain the extent of it.
 
white avenger said:
Beat the drums! Sound the trumpets. Call out the dancing girls! Miss K and WA actually AGREE on something about Spike!!!

Sort of...

Yes, Spike did adapt to his new situation. He had to in order to survive. It wasn't like he had never done it before. If he hadn't been able to adapt, or at least blend into, vampire society, specifically as dictated by Angelus, he wouldn't have survived that, either. That's simple logic and adaptation.

And, yes, having a chip had nothing to do with any sense of right or wrong. (And this is where our trails diverge once more) Mainly, because Spike always knew, just as all vampires know, the difference between right and wrong just as much as any normal human being does. The difference is, with vampires and certain deviant humans, they simply don't care. It's strictly a question of survival. A vampire, in order to exist, has to function well enough in human society to least give the impression that he is human, which means that he certainly would have to distinguish between the things that he would be allowed to do in order to blend in, and those that he would not be allowed to do, at least openly and in public. Knowing right from wrong would have to be as necessary a skill for a vampire as the ability to stalk and cut the weakest of a herd of gazelles out for prey is to a feral lion.

Spike, Angelus, Darla, Harmony, Drusilla, and all of the other vampires knew the difference between right and wrong, in both their own society and that of humans. It was a matter of survival that they did so.

Right and wrong are, arguably, simply arbitrary rules dictated by whatever society we live in, possibly, but not necessarily, tempered by our own personal convictions. Vampires operate under two separate right/wrong standards, depending on whether they are with other vampires, or with humans.
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Vampires may know what's right and wrong... but they desire to do what's wrong. They have fun doing evil deeds... my point is the chip prevented Spike from doing evil enough that he began to not desire it.
 
I think WA has covered it. Spike, like all vampires has an intellectual understanding of right and wrong. What he struggled with was an understanding of himself in relation to morality. In other words, he had something of an identity crisis.

I don't think Spike thought about morality much higher than in regards to his relationship with Buffy, hence the crisis he had at the end of Season 6. Getting a soul was more about doing what he thought Buffy wanted, but without knowing exactly what was going on in his head and with Spike himself not being to clear on his own identity, I don't know to what extent the chip played in his sense of morality. I'd wager not a lot. I contend that the soul had more than zappy feelings when he did what humans considered wrong. It gave him a deeper connection to human morality, whatever that means. The problem is Joss never really fully explained to nature of the soul, although he did say with a soul there is a difference, again whatever that means.
 
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