Help Joss, Buffy & Feminism

Hello all!
I'm writing a paper for my Women&Gender Studies class. We can do the paper on whatever we want, just so long as it has to do with feminism. I decided to pick Joss Whedon and Buffy. Joss has said before that he considers himself a feminist, and Buffy definitely has feminism in it.
I'm not totally sure how to go about my essay, and I was wondering if you guys would like to help me out a bit? It's due in two weeks, and I normally put things off until the last minute (night before/day of) but I really want this paper to be amazing, so I'm at least THINKING about it now. =]

While Brainstorming, things I want to touch on are:
-Joss and how he considers himself as a feminist
-Why Joss writes about strong female characters
-Buffy and how she is the chosen one yada yada
-CHOSEN, INNOCENCE,
-touch on warren, willow&tara, buffy&family

I want to include a few other specific episodes but there are so many good ones, I need to narrow it down a bit.

I also want to include a few quotes from him:

"Equality is not a concept. It's not something we should be striving for. It's a necessity. Equality is like gravity. We need it to stand on this earth as men and women, and the misogyny that is in every culture is not a true part of the human condition. It is life out of balance, and that imbalance is sucking something out of the soul of every man and woman who's confronted with it. We need equality. Kinda now."
&
"When I created Buffy, I wanted to create a female icon, but I also wanted to be very careful to surround her with men that not only have no problem with the idea of a female leader, but were in fact engaged and even attracted to the idea."

I really just need to figure out a center idea and focus on it, and I wanted to see if you all had any ideas or constructive criticism or anything really? I'll put my rough draft on here so you can all tear it apart and help me out, too...Once I write it, that is. =]

I hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving and that you enjoy the holiday season!!!

Well, you could write about how various aspects of the show (Buffy's destiny and duty, demons, etc.) help to tell a 'feminist story'. Start off by explaining what feminism is, then apply that to Buffy. The basic premise is that Buffy has super strength, and because demons are metaphors for real life issues, she is by proxy an 'empowered' female...or something like that, lol. Work from there and provide examples from different episodes. And comparing Buffy to other feminist tv-shows and/or to other (super)heroes is always a good idea.

There are feminine critiques of Joss' work out there. And try finding some of those in-depth interviews.

you could also try to find these books in your library:

"Sex and the Slayer: A Gender Studies Primer for the Buffy fan" by Lorna Jowett

"The Lure of the Vampire: Gender, Fiction and Fandom from Bram Stoker to Buffy" by Milly Williamson

"Seers, Witches and Psychics on Screen: An Analysis of Women Visionary Characters in Recent Television and Film" by Karin Beeler

Could you post your essay when you're done? I'd be really interested in reading it.

Great subject! I have studied gender studies myself, and was actually thinking about writing my thesis on Buffy when I go back to study it when I have more time.

I think it's better to concentrate on one subject than to pick several when you're writing. Tends to be better that way. Buffy's character and her as the chosen one could be a good place to start.

Good luck! I'd love to read it when it's finished!

I had another thought (I guess it's kinda obvious that I'd love to write an essay about that topic and get credit for it lol) - you could look at how traditional gender roles are sometimes inverted in BtVS, especially in the early seasons (e.g. in WML Pt2, "Nobody messes with my boyfriend", or IOHEFY when Buffy is possessed by the male ghost). I'm sure I can think of more eps, but these are the ones that made me go "Ha! Gender! when I first watched them. I'm weird that way.

You could also include Helpless and/or Graduation Day Part I and/or Checkpoint, because those are the three episodes in which Buffy stands up against a patriarcal institution, breaking the male domination of the Council.

Today, I had a oral presentation about the Suffragettes. It's maybe not the most obvious link, but to summarize quickly, the Suffragettes fought for the right to vote (I say that cause some people had never heard of them 😀). Before that, the vote was only the privilege of men. In Buffy, old men decide "There will be one Chosen girl in every generation". It was like that and not supposed to change. The Suffragettes managed to change the way things were. It was very bold at the time to dare oppose yourself to the system. But eventually, they changed the rules. They proved themselves to be the equal of men. Buffy shows more than once than she is as good (if not better) as the old guys. She changes the rules too because she says "Why would there be only one Chosen girl?".
Now I say that, I think the link really isn't obvious :')
Anyway, Buffy showed, like the Suffragettes, that there were no reasons for women to be 'inferior' to men, to follow their lead just because they are women and they are men.


The show also show women sexually free. Women who play with men (Faith), who openly talk about sexcapades (Anya), who use menpire to feel alive (Buffy). It's just about sexuality the way it is. It's not a whole "men can be sluts, it's not as outrageous as 'slutty' women". It's just "Women and men have sexual desire. End of discussion. There are no slutty people and non-slutty people. Just people in relationships".


I can't really think of anything else right now!

Aww, I just have to write in here again and say, I love this thread! It makes me so happy that I'm not the only feminist Buffy fan on here. 😀 We should totally start a gang! 😉

Can I be Secretary? 😛

What's your thesis exactly? Do you plan on talking about some of the anti-feminist themes in Buffy? As much as I WISH so much that Buffy was perfectly feminist, there are quite a few times where it fails at its feminist message. For example, there are a lot of sexual consent problems in the Buffyverse, the implications of which are not always examined fully. And as much as I love 'Chosen' and I personally believe that for the most part it is feminist, I've seen a lot of well-articulated arguments to the contrary. For instance, the idea that in spreading her Slayer power, Buffy took away those girls' freedom of choice.

I'd also love to read your essay if you'd like to share it! 😀

ETA: Thanks for this thread, btw. I love talking about feminism and Buffy.

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mayfever agrees: I agree about the sexual consent. As for the the Slayer activation in Chosen, I think it was just clumsily done - meant to be about female empowerment because they needed to wrap up that theme and conveniently forgot that it wasnt a gift but a burden

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Agreed about Chosen. Though IMO, for Buffy she came to accept her destiny on her own terms. What's unfortunate and clumsy is that the feminist message of Chosen believes this can be true for every girl. In a lot of situations and societies, girls don't have the opportunities and support available to be a vampire Slayer. Social issues like race, culture, and class privilege (or lack thereof) are not acknowledged. And as reiterated in canon, in any other case but Buffy's, being a Slayer is a death sentence with a few years delay.

My belief that it is *mostly* feminist may really only be fanwank, lol...what happens after all the Slayers are activated in regards to choice and freedom is not really explored in television canon. And I don't remember a lot about how the Slayer network worked in Season Eight..my attention to the comics has really only been to these last few arcs. 😛

But how I understood Slayer-ness (Slayerhood? Slayerdom?) after Buffy activated all of them was this: now that there are many, many Slayers, a girl DOES have the option of choosing to fight or not. A lot of the burden of being Chosen was also in being the only one Chosen. In being able to choose, the patriarchal system Slayers were forced into was upended, because choice is inherently powerful.

And then there's the issue of the powers themselves, and how they are still thrust on these girls. I've seen this argued about a lot. It's a very eerie unfeminist metaphor, depending on how you view the mythology, as the original creation of the Slayer was essentially rape and the generation of each Slayer after her may be a form of that original sexual violation. Though in how I interpreted the mythology of it, I had thought that activation was very different from creation of Slayers. I think that the fact that these Slayers are activated rather than created, which suggests that these powers were inherent and were in fact simply dormant, raises some very powerful questions about the nature of rape* and how women bear the pain of all the women who came before us. Except through the Slayer metaphor, women draw strength from that pain instead of misery.

*male-on-female rape. Which the majority of rapes are, but I just wanted to make the distinction here so as not to dismiss male and intersex victims and rape in the gay community, which is very seldom discussed 🙁

Wow, that's some really interesting thoughts! I didn't know that the first slayer was created through rape, where does one learn that? It does give it a very eerie feeling to it.

I really love Chosen. I'm a firm believer in sisterhood, so for me it was like my greatest tv moment ever to have that ending 😀 But yeah, I see some problems with it, which is pretty much the same problems I have with the sisterhood concept in general - you can't really put all women together and expect them to want the same thing, things like race, class and age makes a huge difference. (And sadly, a lot of feminist theory is centered around white middleclass women, it's those theories that get all the attention and recognition many times anyway). It's also really naive to expect every women to even want to be a part of a sisterhood and not feel a greater loyalty towards some other group or a group at all. With that in mind sisterhood for me becomes more of a way of treating people if that makes sense.

This Year's Girl said:

Wow, that's some really interesting thoughts! I didn't know that the first slayer was created through rape, where does one learn that? It does give it a very eerie feeling to it.

I really love Chosen. I'm a firm believer in sisterhood, so for me it was like my greatest tv moment ever to have that ending 😀 But yeah, I see some problems with it, which is pretty much the same problems I have with the sisterhood concept in general - you can't really put all women together and expect them to want the same thing, things like race, class and age makes a huge difference. (And sadly, a lot of feminist theory is centered around white middleclass women, it's those theories that get all the attention and recognition many times anyway). It's also really naive to expect every women to even want to be a part of a sisterhood and not feel a greater loyalty towards some other group or a group at all. With that in mind sisterhood for me becomes more of a way of treating people if that makes sense.

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The rape of the first Slayer is largely metaphorical. In 'Get it Done' of Season 7, when Buffy visits the "Shadow Men", she realizes that the first Slayer was kidnapped and chained up, and that the men then forced a demon/demonic power into her. I'm sure there are different interpretations of it, but the consensus was that it was meant to be a metaphor for rape or violation. Regardless of what one would call it, it's still a very dark and painful origin.

I totally agree about the sisterhood thing! I love the idea of connection through experience, but the fact is our experiences as women are still all very different. And it becomes especially problematic when the dominant viewpoint is only white, middle to upper middle class, cisgendered, and able bodied. That's another issue I have with Buffy as a feminist text, although I give it some leeway in that area because those are the viewpoints we see most often in television and Hollywood anyway. I mean, at that point in time, having a powerful female-driven show was very hard to achieve at all! I'm more disappointed that they didn't address those issues, I guess.

And ack, sorry to be sort of a downer on the Buffy feminism thread! 😛 I swear I still love Buffy, I really do! I just think that when you love something, it's also important to recognize its flaws. 🙂

prophecygrrl said:

The rape of the first Slayer is largely metaphorical. In 'Get it Done' of Season 7, when Buffy visits the "Shadow Men", she realizes that the first Slayer was kidnapped and chained up, and that the men then forced a demon/demonic power into her. I'm sure there are different interpretations of it, but the consensus was that it was meant to be a metaphor for rape or violation. Regardless of what one would call it, it's still a very dark and painful origin.

I totally agree about the sisterhood thing! I love the idea of connection through experience, but the fact is our experiences as women are still all very different. And it becomes especially problematic when the dominant viewpoint is only white, middle to upper middle class, cisgendered, and able bodied. That's another issue I have with Buffy as a feminist text, although I give it some leeway in that area because those are the viewpoints we see most often in television and Hollywood anyway. I mean, at that point in time, having a powerful female-driven show was very hard to achieve at all! I'm more disappointed that they didn't address those issues, I guess.

And ack, sorry to be sort of a downer on the Buffy feminism thread! 😛 I swear I still love Buffy, I really do! I just think that when you love something, it's also important to recognize its flaws. 🙂

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I should totally watch that episode again. I remember it vaguely, but to be honest (and I am a little ashamed of this 🙂) I always found the first slayer scenes really boring, so I usually just skip them. 🙂

And omg, are you for real? It's like your inside my mind about the sisterhood/buffy critic! 😀 Only, you have better words for it and I'm just a swedish gal with english as her second language, lol. Anyway, I totally agree with you. I think it's important to critique something, even though you love it. Buffy is a great show, but many times I feel that Joss gets away with a lot of stuff just 'cause he claims to be a feminist. I'm not saying he isn't, but from where I'm standing he could be a lot better in a lot of feminist areas, especially if you are a intersectional (is that the word?) feminist like me. I hold Joss work really high, so I expect the best from him, and it's not always he delivers. 🙂

This Year's Girl said:

I should totally watch that episode again. I remember it vaguely, but to be honest (and I am a little ashamed of this 🙂) I always found the first slayer scenes really boring, so I usually just skip them. 🙂

And omg, are you for real? It's like your inside my mind about the sisterhood/buffy critic! 😀 Only, you have better words for it and I'm just a swedish gal with english as her second language, lol. Anyway, I totally agree with you. I think it's important to critique something, even though you love it. Buffy is a great show, but many times I feel that Joss gets away with a lot of stuff just 'cause he claims to be a feminist. I'm not saying he isn't, but from where I'm standing he could be a lot better in a lot of feminist areas, especially if you are a intersectional (is that the word?) feminist like me. I hold Joss work really high, so I expect the best from him, and it's not always he delivers. 🙂

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LOL!!

Right! Joss could do a lot better. But I have to say, even with some of the antifeminist things in Buffy, I will probably always appreciate Joss for creating such awesome female role models. I feel like it's wrong to dismiss Buffy entirely because there are so many things that it DID do well. It definitely shattered some glass ceilings and inspired so many people out there. I follow a lot of Buffy-centric blogs and livejournals online (sadly, I don't know any Buffy fans in real life. I've tried to convert my friends, but failed, lol), and I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say that Willow and Tara helped them come to terms with their sexuality, or that Cordelia and Buffy showed them how to be strong, etc. 😀

Yeah, that's not to be forgotten! Buffy has actually helped me a lot too, even though I only just saw it last year. It feels really enpowering to me and it has many great examples of sisterhood things in it that I try to follow 🙂

So hey, feminists, which one of the characters do you think is the best feminist role model? 🙂 You don't have to motivate it if you don't want to, but it would be interesting to know. 🙂

Oh, and I am sorry if I'm taking over this thread and talking about stuff that doesn't belong here. Should we start a seperate feminst thread?

Wow, a lot has happened here since yesterday! Let me just say that while I do like the idea of sisterhood, I can also see its flaws, specifically that it pretty much ignores the fact that womanhood is perceived differently in different classes, nationalities, ethnicities etc and that it is therefore difficult to form a common bond.

I think Willow is the show's best feminist role model. She acquires her powers through determination and of her own accord and isn't suddenly presented with them like Buffy is, plus after her crush on Xander I can't recall a time when she acted pathetically around a guy (not even Oz), something that Buffy had quite a penchant for, even with Riley ("You smelled the smell?"). It always pissed me off a little that Buffy was always so willing to leave her current boyfriend in charge of everything, especially when it was so obvious that she was a lot better suited to the job like it was with Riley.

mayfever said:

Wow, a lot has happened here since yesterday! Let me just say that while I do like the idea of sisterhood, I can also see its flaws, specifically that it pretty much ignores the fact that womanhood is perceived differently in different classes, nationalities, ethnicities etc and that it is therefore difficult to form a common bond.

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Agreed. See a few posts above. 🙂 I try to think of sisterhood more as a way of acting towards other women than a way to clump every women together and expect them to have something in common.

mayfever said:

I can't recall a time when she acted pathetically around a guy (not even Oz), something that Buffy had quite a penchant for, even with Riley ("You smelled the smell?").

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I too like that Willow really held her own with guys, like in beer bad when she tricked Parker. 😀 But I must say that I also liked that Buffy was a bit insecure with boys. I mean, I didn't LIKE it, of course I just wanted her to tell them to shove it (especially to Riley like ALL the time 😀), but in the same time I think it was a realistic portrayal of a situation that is really real for a lot of girls. It is a reality that a lot of girls worry about what guys think, and this goes regardless if you're straight or not. I think it's because men often get to set the agenda in society. I also think that a lot of (hetersexual/bisexual) girls join in in this heterosexual game that society has created were girls are supposed to make themselves weak and insecure and aren't going to feel good about themselves until a guy confirms them as attractive and a sexual being. So it's a hard call to make - are Buffy supposed to lead the way and show girls how it "should" be, or are she going to do things many girls can identify with and then speak up later? It doesn't have to be that black and white though, I think she could and did both. 🙂

I love that you're writing this paper. I actually wrote a paper on BtVS and feminism once... It probably wasn't so great though, it was before I had done any gender studies... I was a feminist of course, but I knew very little about gender theory and queer theory etc.

I guess that how you write about feminism in BtVS will depend a lot on how you view feminism and what your feminist opinions and theories look like...

Ms.Trick said:

You could also include Helpless and/or Graduation Day Part I and/or Checkpoint, because those are the three episodes in which Buffy stands up against a patriarcal institution, breaking the male domination of the Council.

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That's one of the reasons I have always loved Checkpoint so much, mhm...

This Year's Girl said:

It makes me so happy that I'm not the only feminist Buffy fan on here. 😀 We should totally start a gang! 😉

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Couldn't rep you. Just wanted to say that if there was a message board for feminist BtVS fans, I'd totally join (and be very active)......

eponinethen said:

I love that you're writing this paper. I actually wrote a paper on BtVS and feminism once... It probably wasn't so great though, it was before I had done any gender studies... I was a feminist of course, but I knew very little about gender theory and queer theory etc.

I guess that how you write about feminism in BtVS will depend a lot on how you view feminism and what your feminist opinions and theories look like...


That's one of the reasons I have always loved Checkpoint so much, mhm...


Couldn't rep you. Just wanted to say that if there was a message board for feminist BtVS fans, I'd totally join (and be very active)......

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I think I'm very similar to you! I think I've called myself a feminist since I was, I don't know...eleven? I always believed fundamentally in gender equality, but for a very, very long time I was very ignorant of gender theory & queer theory and intersectionality of oppression. I didn't understand it for a very long time until I started reading more feminist blogs, websites, and literature.

And oh, I LOVE Checkpoint so much!! Buffy's speech to the Council is so awesome. It makes me want to pump my fist in the air every time, hehe. 😀

eponinethen agrees: Mhm, when I started watching Buffy (and started loving it for it's feminism), I couldn't handle people pointing out not so feminist things about the show. But I agree and you're right. It's not perfect in that way.

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When I first started watching Buffy this year, I loved it unconditionally because Buffy Summers and the other women of the Buffyverse kicked ASS. They were inspiring, and I thought that perhaps that was all it took to be considered feminist. Maybe ostensibly so, (because really, kick-ass women ROCK and there needs to be more of them represented in television and pop culture! 🙂) but for a long time I refused to recognize its feminist flaws. In all honesty, hearing/reading arguments about its sexist/antifeminist elements upset me. It was probably irrational to feel that now that I look back, but Buffy meant (and still means!) so much to me that it was hard to criticize it.

With the popularity of Twilight, you could compare/contrast the feminism in Buffy to the feminism (or lack thereof) in Bella. Why are so many young girls/women drawn to this character (or her story), and how does that affect the role of feminism in our society? Has feminism changed since Buffy went off the air and Twilight is now mainstraim? Just some questions to ponder. I think that would make interesting discussion. Good luck! 😀

prophecygrrl said:

When I first started watching Buffy this year, I loved it unconditionally because Buffy Summers and the other women of the Buffyverse kicked ASS. They were inspiring, and I thought that perhaps that was all it took to be considered feminist. Maybe ostensibly so, (because really, kick-ass women ROCK and there needs to be more of them represented in television and pop culture! 🙂) but for a long time I refused to recognize its feminist flaws. In all honesty, hearing/reading arguments about its sexist/antifeminist elements upset me. It was probably irrational to feel that now that I look back, but Buffy meant (and still means!) so much to me that it was hard to criticize it.

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I think a big reason I wasn't willing to see the not so feminist sides of BtVS was because before I became a fan I thought BtVS was a really sexist show. You know, the whole "just a (normative) pretty, blonde high school girl running around in high heels and short skirts" thing. So when I finally looked fast that, I figured people who said BtVS wasn't only a feminist show just hadn't seen past that yet...

eponinethen said:

I think a big reason I wasn't willing to see the not so feminist sides of BtVS was because before I became a fan I thought BtVS was a really sexist show. You know, the whole "just a (normative) pretty, blonde high school girl running around in high heels and short skirts" thing. So when I finally looked fast that, I figured people who said BtVS wasn't only a feminist show just hadn't seen past that yet...

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Wow, that's really interesting...I haven't met anyone who thought of it like that, lol. 😀

I think my experience was a bit different in the kind of feminism I was first exposed to. I pretty much was introduced to feminism by reading teenage/young adult novels with strong female protagonists when I was younger, and the authors of those novels always promoted lipstick feminism ideals. That it was okay to wear what you wanted, date who you wanted, and do traditionally feminine things and still be a feminist, because there is nothing wrong or weak about displaying femininity anyway. That's why I never really have a problem with Buffy running around in short skirts and heels because she did it because she wanted to, not specifically for anyone else's approval. My *main* feminist problems with Buffy now that I've watched it are with the sexual consent issues that aren't addressed properly and the lack of racial representation. Blecch. Come on, Joss...