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Buffy and Spike - a rant

bearforever7

Townie
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
4
Age
23
May I just say, I hate that spike laid down the charm and kindness leading up to them getting together. He was nice and helpful, then they actually got together and he was totally different. Back to his old vampire ways, pushy and aggressive and predatory and it completely took away from all the work he did to make buffy and the gang start to relatively trust him. AND on top of that, I don't think that buffy was nice to spike at all? He got so much crap from the scooby gang for sleeping with anya when in reality he was hurting and buffy made it clear she didn't want to be with him and it's like so much is expected from anyone who isn't a part of the group? Like noone can do right? Idk it confuses me. Don't get me wrong - this is my favorite show but it's something that always bugged me. I think Spike was there for buffy in a way noone else was for her and there was so much good that the writers could've done for the relationship and they chose not to. IDK let me know what you guys think!
 

AstridDante

Potential
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
390
Age
43
Well at all points he is a soulless vampire even when he was being helpful and kind. He had the ability to love albeit in a soulless way. Initially he was being helpful and kind as he thought this is what Buffy wanted. He also genuinely cared about Dawn and cared for her and helped the team when Buffy was dead, partly out of guilt, partly in honour of her memory. I think he changed tack and became pushy when he realised maybe he could have something with her. Once the smoochies started. It was all very confusing to him. Then once they slept together, to his mind they were in a relationship no matter what she said to the contrary and he was going to do anything to hold onto her so his vampiric tendencies came to the fore again. I will say they both brought the toxicity to the relationship. Neither of them were in a great spot.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,329
Age
56
May I just say, I hate that spike laid down the charm and kindness leading up to them getting together. He was nice and helpful, then they actually got together and he was totally different. Back to his old vampire ways, pushy and aggressive and predatory and it completely took away from all the work he did to make buffy and the gang start to relatively trust him. AND on top of that, I don't think that buffy was nice to spike at all? He got so much crap from the scooby gang for sleeping with anya when in reality he was hurting and buffy made it clear she didn't want to be with him and it's like so much is expected from anyone who isn't a part of the group? Like noone can do right? Idk it confuses me. Don't get me wrong - this is my favorite show but it's something that always bugged me. I think Spike was there for buffy in a way noone else was for her and there was so much good that the writers could've done for the relationship and they chose not to. IDK let me know what you guys think!
Is that not what makes Spike worse than the average Vampire the ability to feel for some one but still be evil, Angelus was pure evil where Spike can turn it on or of as he see's fit , the same vampire that holds Buffy hands is the one who hits her, the one that listens to her concerns is the same one who taunts her about coming back wrong, the one who spent time looking after Dawn, stops Buffy being with Dawn, the one who knows Buffy has been though and then takes advantage of her because of her mental state manipulating her ignoring her no's and don'ts. Was not the first thing he does when he thinks his chip is not working is go hunting, how often did we see Spike help with the Slaying after they started having sex ?
As for Anya yes its a bit of bad luck they slept together and was filmed, not planned, but to Buffy and Xander it was painful and demeaning
No Spike is a special kind of evil
 

Bop

Scooby
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
3,278
Age
22
Sineya
Is that not what makes Spike worse than the average Vampire the ability to feel for some one but still be evil, Angelus was pure evil where Spike can turn it on or of as he see's fit , the same vampire that holds Buffy hands is the one who hits her, the one that listens to her concerns is the same one who taunts her about coming back wrong, the one who spent time looking after Dawn, stops Buffy being with Dawn, the one who knows Buffy has been though and then takes advantage of her because of her mental state manipulating her ignoring her no's and don'ts. Was not the first thing he does when he thinks his chip is not working is go hunting, how often did we see Spike help with the Slaying after they started having sex ?
As for Anya yes its a bit of bad luck they slept together and was filmed, not planned, but to Buffy and Xander it was painful and demeaning
No Spike is a special kind of evil

A lot of fans actually praise Spike a lot for being less evil than Angelus while soulless but I've never understood why that's a flex. First of all, being less evil than Angelus isn't saying a lot and secondly at least when Angel is souled you can have confidence in him and imo he's a better person than any version of Spike. And the second praise Spike gets is that he 'fought' for his soul while Angel didn't. In immediate terms that's true however I think that's short sighted because Angel sure suffered for his soul far, far longer than Spike did. Angel's whole show is about him suffering for what he did as Angelus, when he gets a literal miracle (his son) even that is turned sour because of something he did as Angelus coming back to bite him.
And yeah Angel does separate himself from Angelus but it's clearly just a cope otherwise what does he have to be guilty about? Angel definitely knows he's the same person as Angelus.

Just to address OP at least it's a good parallel to real life because a lot of people in relationships can be confusing or manipulative like that to be really nice and then really awful other times.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
4,400
Age
40
One of the few times I defend Spike in later seasons is with Anya. He was actually doing what Buffy said rather than "reading between the lines to know what she REALLY meant" (people who do that deserve whatever pain they get when the other person takes them at face value). I like to think that had Buffy and Xander not moved in that Spike would've actually started to move on, though no way would the writers allow that, no matter how contrived the writing had to get.

Most of the Scoobies were angry--and rightly so--over the attack after rather than being with Anya. Other than Xander (who went crazy with extreme jealousy, a common occurrence in the Buffyverse), I think only Dawn gave Spike grief, and she spoke from the perspective of an ignorant child that didn't know the entire story. (That said, I loved what Dawn said to Spike about waking up on fire in season 7, which was over the attack, not Anya.)


That aside, if it were up to me, Spike would've not shown up after season 3 (and 2 would be fine for me), but having done so, I have to make an effort to suspend disbelief that he's not dust after what he tried to do in early season 5 (affecting Riley, when it's shown how crazy Buffy gets over boyfriends, taking it more personal than attacks on herself, and the dream Spike has even plays off audience expectation).

Though given that I think he's a cool villain, and much loved, with some fun moments later on in s5, I'd been okay with him getting through season 5 IF he then replaces James in Angel season 3 who is the one to get the heart replacement (before Buffy returns), with a little adaptation it could've been a much better episode that added to Angel and Spike both as well the different ways they loved Buffy than it was without feeling a bit too heavy handed (like if those 2 vampires introduced in that ep really did have a history then Wesley should know about them since other vampire hunters did).
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
6,058
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37
Location
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I think there was definitely an element of making Spike the "bad guy" and trying to convince the audience to hate him. He had become so popular that maybe the writers wanted to remind the audience that he was still an "evil vampire"?
 

BuffyBot22

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Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
970
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28
Location
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May I just say, I hate that spike laid down the charm and kindness leading up to them getting together. He was nice and helpful, then they actually got together and he was totally different. Back to his old vampire ways, pushy and aggressive and predatory and it completely took away from all the work he did to make buffy and the gang start to relatively trust him. AND on top of that, I don't think that buffy was nice to spike at all? He got so much crap from the scooby gang for sleeping with anya when in reality he was hurting and buffy made it clear she didn't want to be with him and it's like so much is expected from anyone who isn't a part of the group? Like noone can do right? Idk it confuses me. Don't get me wrong - this is my favorite show but it's something that always bugged me. I think Spike was there for buffy in a way noone else was for her and there was so much good that the writers could've done for the relationship and they chose not to. IDK let me know what you guys think!
I agree to a certain extent. I enjoyed the build up of Spuffy but the actual execution was terrible. Unless the writers were going for a metaphor of a typical abusive relationship. Most of the time the abuser is quite kind and charming in the beginning and once the abuser gets his/her prize their actual abusive and toxic tendencies come out. We all know BtVS is great for metaphors and if this was the writers intentions then bravo. But, I have a feeling it was not considering they wanted the relationship to continue in s7.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
4,400
Age
40
Had Debbie survived and ended up joining the Scoobies (which could've turned out well), I honestly don't know if Debbie would warn and counsel Buffy ("you saved me, let me save you") or if the writers would just make her a puppet for the plot to promote Spuffy (even if used to make it more "grey" and that she and Spike truly love each other anyway).
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,800
Age
50
I agree to a certain extent. I enjoyed the build up of Spuffy but the actual execution was terrible. Unless the writers were going for a metaphor of a typical abusive relationship. Most of the time the abuser is quite kind and charming in the beginning and once the abuser gets his/her prize their actual abusive and toxic tendencies come out. We all know BtVS is great for metaphors and if this was the writers intentions then bravo. But, I have a feeling it was not considering they wanted the relationship to continue in s7.
I think they did in a way but their use of metaphors has always been a bit mixed and varies season to season for example how magic went from a gay metaphor to an addiction one.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,329
Age
56
I agree to a certain extent. I enjoyed the build up of Spuffy but the actual execution was terrible. Unless the writers were going for a metaphor of a typical abusive relationship. Most of the time the abuser is quite kind and charming in the beginning and once the abuser gets his/her prize their actual abusive and toxic tendencies come out. We all know BtVS is great for metaphors and if this was the writers intentions then bravo. But, I have a feeling it was not considering they wanted the relationship to continue in s7.
Season 6 the Bad boyfriend, the dark depression the S&M sex and the abusive relationship was all about Marti Noxon life, even the Attempted rape was about her trying to false herself on a ex thinking if she could have sex once more maybe they would stay together, not the same when a man try's to false himself on a woman.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,800
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50
Season 6 the Bad boyfriend, the dark depression the S&M sex and the abusive relationship was all about Marti Noxon life, even the Attempted rape was about her trying to false herself on a ex thinking if she could have sex once more maybe they would stay together, not the same when a man try's to false himself on a woman.
Ok one we don't know for certain that the woman's experiences used were Marti's - no one has ever confirmed that it's likely but it's still an assumption. Two - just because that is doesn't mean anything else is ...that's really an assumption and much more of a stretch. Three - men are sometimes abused by women it's rarer but it does happen. I used to have a go to example of someone who was hit by their gf and then the person in question came out as a trans woman so bang went that one although she is still a six footer who was still hit by their girlfriend and their statement that you can be bloody terrified of someone half your size still stands. It's much rarer but some women do still sexual assault and rape some men and denying it doesn't help their victims. Also Buffy can and did fight Spike off as she had done many times before - the author Mark Field has said that what stopped her fight have been as much the shock of it happening as the temporary nerfing - but I can see how someone triggered by it might not see that.
 

Zuzu4318

Townie
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Aug 16, 2022
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1
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51
This is how I see that turn of events. Throughout season 5, Buffy calls on Spike for help and generally treats him well. I can't remember when, but he says that she has always treated him like a man. He says this about Dawn and Buffy's Mother. I think this is what makes him better. Then that sweet kiss after Glory tortured him. I'm sure he is hopeful. But she dies. After they sleep together, the morning after, she is horrible to him. She calls him a thing and a monster. You can see the change in his face. Ok, if you want the monster, I'll give you the monster.
 

Plasma

The Second Sister
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Black Thorn
May I just say, I hate that spike laid down the charm and kindness leading up to them getting together. He was nice and helpful, then they actually got together and he was totally different. Back to his old vampire ways, pushy and aggressive and predatory and it completely took away from all the work he did to make buffy and the gang start to relatively trust him. AND on top of that, I don't think that buffy was nice to spike at all? He got so much crap from the scooby gang for sleeping with anya when in reality he was hurting and buffy made it clear she didn't want to be with him and it's like so much is expected from anyone who isn't a part of the group? Like noone can do right? Idk it confuses me. Don't get me wrong - this is my favorite show but it's something that always bugged me. I think Spike was there for buffy in a way noone else was for her and there was so much good that the writers could've done for the relationship and they chose not to. IDK let me know what you guys think!

Spike didn’t really lay on the charm leading up to their getting together. If anything, he was creepy and stalker-ish beforehand. He commissioned a robot of her that loved him unconditionally, he would stand outside her house and watch her for long periods of time, he chained her up in his dungeon with Dru because his feelings were tearing him apart, etc. He also acts entitled to her affection many, many times.

The only reason they got together in the first place was because Buffy had died and the only one who knew what it meant to be undead was Spike. They were drawn together because of that factor. Buffy also was in a really poor mental place. You’re correct in saying that she treated him poorly, and he treated her poorly as well. They were in an abusive relationship.

Now granted, a lot of that changed after he got a soul and became a better person, and that’s the kind of Spuffy that I love, but it’s worth recognizing that before that happened, Spike was a real dirtbag.
 

AstridDante

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390
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This is how I see that turn of events. Throughout season 5, Buffy calls on Spike for help and generally treats him well. I can't remember when, but he says that she has always treated him like a man. He says this about Dawn and Buffy's Mother. I think this is what makes him better. Then that sweet kiss after Glory tortured him. I'm sure he is hopeful. But she dies. After they sleep together, the morning after, she is horrible to him. She calls him a thing and a monster. You can see the change in his face. Ok, if you want the monster, I'll give you the monster.
In all fairness he wasn’t great to her either the morning after, Buffy was going to stay with him but he went and was all crass ‘the only thing better than killing a slayer would be f*cking one.’ It made Buffy feel like he just wanted to sleep with her because he was a penchant for doing slayers. We all know it’s more than that but from Buffy’s point of view, she was hurt and lashed out. They were both vulnerable the morning after and behaved badly
 

Btvs fan

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Feb 11, 2019
Messages
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Season 6 the Bad boyfriend, the dark depression the S&M sex and the abusive relationship was all about Marti Noxon life, even the Attempted rape was about her trying to false herself on a ex thinking if she could have sex once more maybe they would stay together, not the same when a man try's to false himself on a woman.
Joss Whedon has said Buffy the character was both what he imagined himself as a woman to be as well as sonone he'd like to have sex with. So I don't think you cab blame Marti.
Indeed from reports about S6 she wanted a 1and done sleeping with Spike. It was Joss who ordered the sleeping with Invisible Buffy, the Alley Sex and Balcony scene.
We also know for the Buffy Bot in S5 he wanted to dress her in more sexy clothes etc.
So Dora you need to blame Joss not Marti.
 

afanofbuffy

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Jul 27, 2021
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170
Very satisfying when Buffy found out about Anya and Spike. What was she expecting? That Spike would be sobbing alone in his crypt for her?
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
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41
Very satisfying when Buffy found out about Anya and Spike. What was she expecting? That Spike would be sobbing alone in his crypt for her?
In Season 5 of Angel and with a soul he sleeps with Harmony again
 
AlphaFoxtrot
AlphaFoxtrot
The ship sailed on Harmony 's inherent dignity by that point.
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