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Dangerous: A deeper analysis

nightshade

Your grandfather is a cat
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Black Thorn
I'm curious to know when he stopped singing it? He definitely would mention that it was about Michelle when he used to sing it.
 
B
Btvs fan
This was a question in December 2020. Hes in house

nightshade

Your grandfather is a cat
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Black Thorn
And everyone would laugh when he would tell the story. That's the part that I found more offensive than the song. He turned it into a joke for the audience.
Yep, if I remember correctly from the concert I went to, it was something like "you'll know who it's about right?" And the audience replied it was about Michelle, he confirmed it, and then played the song. This was back in 2009, memory might be a little hazy on the exact wording, but you get the idea.
 

Spanky

Scooby
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Black Thorn
Yep, if I remember correctly from the concert I went to, it was something like "you'll know who it's about right?" And the audience replied it was about Michelle, he confirmed it, and then played the song. This was back in 2009, memory might be a little hazy on the exact wording, but you get the idea.
To me, that's the only thing about it that makes it sketchy.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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To me, that's the only thing about it that makes it sketchy.
a little bit yeah.
This can be interpreted two ways :
- he knows people know who it's about and would rather say it outright and be done with it.
- he wants people to know because ??? he thinks it's harmless trivia ? it's a bit scandalous ? can't really place it.
 

Stake fodder

What about my me?
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Or is Dangerous bad because we are the select few that happen to know the person is underage? But then isn't also the "jailbait" part somewhat a rock'n'roll staple? with songs like I Saw Her Standing There by the Beatles, Ted Nugent's Jailbait or Stray Cat Blues by the Stones, which was about the bands, or more specifically Mick Jagger's penchant for underage girls.
I think only part of the issue is that Michelle was underage. The other half of it is that it is well known that James Marsters had a predilection for dating teenagers at the time this song was written. That adds weight to the sense that the song is saying that he is attracted to her, and avoiding her only because she's still jailbait. Opinions may differ on that, but I certainly think there is nothing in the song that implies only the brotherly or avuncular affection that a man his age should be displaying toward a teen girl. That makes it seriously creepy and inappropriate.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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I think only part of the issue is that Michelle was underage. The other half of it is that it is well known that James Marsters had a predilection for dating teenagers at the time this song was written. That adds weight to the sense that the song is saying that he is attracted to her, and avoiding her only because she's still jailbait. Opinions may differ on that, but I certainly think there is nothing in the song that implies only the brotherly or avuncular affection that a man his age should be displaying toward a teen girl. That makes it seriously creepy and inappropriate.
Ok citation needed on James dating teenagers as it's the first I've heard of it. As I've said before indie rock bands have sung about real life rapes and murders from the POV of the perpetrators of those crimes - Diane coveted by Therapy! Polly by Nirvana and Possum Kingdom by the Toadies. This is a storm of a teacup IMO just being used as ammunition by Spike haters.
 
thetopher
thetopher
'just being used. as ammunition by Spike haters' wow, way to sweepingly ascribe petty motive to a real world problem.

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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Eh, all in all the song just strikes me as a more scandalous and less well written version of "Does you mother know" by Abba, the gist of it being "you're very cute and attractive but it ain't gonna happen".
Maybe I'm being too generous but the trend of treating artistic work and especially songs as the creator's moral statement annoys me at best.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Ok citation needed on James dating teenagers as it's the first I've heard of it.

It was said somewhere that he attended the graduation ceremony of his wife (who he is now apparently getting divorced from after 10 years of marriage).
 

Stake fodder

What about my me?
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Ok citation needed on James dating teenagers as it's the first I've heard of it. As I've said before indie rock bands have sung about real life rapes and murders from the POV of the perpetrators of those crimes - Diane coveted by Therapy! Polly by Nirvana and Possum Kingdom by the Toadies. This is a storm of a teacup IMO just being used as ammunition by Spike haters.
I am not at all a Spike hater, as he is one of my favorite characters! But Spike did not write the song, so I do not connect it at all to Spike, the character. This is a discussion of a song written by James Marsters, the actor/singer. I know you know that, but I am just clarifying my intentions!

I am surprised if it is not widely known about JM dating teens, as I am very new to the fandom, and came across this info several times with just very light searching on other subjects, like what the actors are doing now, or threads on this very board. I understand your wanting citations, though, so here is what I can find now:

His wife states (link) that they met several months before September 2004, and she gives her birthdate as April 1986, which means she was 17 or 18 when they started their relationship, and he was 41.

He was dating a woman named Liz Stauber in 1997 when he started on Buffy. She was born in 1979, so 18 when they started dating, to his 35. There are several references and photos of them commonly available. Here's a quote from one interview (link) : "They had been looking for a ‘Spike’ for a long time and hadn’t found him, so they ‘cast the net’ wider as they say. I went in, and at the time I had just got together with my current girlfriend (actress Liz Stauber of TEACHING MRS. TINGLE) and I felt sexy as hell, so it just came together.”

He dated Mercedes McNab when she was 19 and he was 37. There are several references online to it, but I couldn't find any specific interview. I read this originally somewhere here on the board.

Searching for this post, I came across a page (link) that listed several women he dated, including Amber Benson (15 years younger than JM) and Alison MacInnis (18 years younger). However, this page just says they dated, and doesn't give dates. These women may have been in their 20's, but the significant age difference still adds evidence that JM was attracted to much younger women, which was my point regarding the song.

I hope this answers your question, Katmobile. It is not my intention to spread gossip, and certainly not my intention to indicate any hatred of Spike. I was just citing what I thought was common knowledge in my last post, that JM dated (legal-age) teens at the time he was writing this song about a(n underage) teen, which seems relevant to me.
 

Cheese Slices

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Yeah I guess it depends on how you define teenagehood. For me it's roughly 12-17 yo, for some people it goes further than 18. It's a debate. To me a 18+ yo is a young adult, but ymmv. It's pretty arbitrary to begin with. It's why, as long as it's between two consenting parties, I don't think it's a big deal.
 

TriBel

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being used as ammunition by Spike haters
Please note my avatar...and while I can't separate the dancer from the dance, I can distinguish the actor from the role. As a woman, I'm saying it's a shit song in and of itself. It's shit for many reasons but (for me) mostly because of its overt objectification...which is worse when you know it's not a hypothetical person.
Ok citation needed on James dating teenagers as it's the first I've heard of it.
I thought it was common knowledge. Personally, I don't care provided they're above the age of consent - the song's still problematic (I've run out of synonyms for shit). I know there are similar songs but we're discussing this one.
 
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TriBel

Scooby
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This made me LOL for some odd reason. First thought was are you Sybil... how many women you got living inside you.
Thank you (edited) - took my eye off the vowels... too busy copying/pasting "t"s. Sybil...am I that obtuse? I'm wounded... 😯 Sybil would have found a synonym for shit. That said, my everyday vocabulary is dominated by four letter words so it's really no excuse.

@Spanky - if I was Sybil I'd be bilingual (I think). I'm not. I only speak English peppered with Anglo-Saxon.
 
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S
Spanky
I've yet to determine if you're Sybil, let alone obtuse.

Priceless

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The song does objectify Michelle Trachtenberg, but I can't help but defend it because people do mix up Marsters and Spike and use this song to throw further blame on Spike. There are posters on this site who have called Marsters a pedophile and a rapist. I'm afraid after reading many posts of this nature, without receipts, I tend to jump to his defence automatically, and probably will continue to do so.
 

Stake fodder

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Yeah I guess it depends on how you define teenagehood. For me it's roughly 12-17 yo, for some people it goes further than 18. It's a debate. To me a 18+ yo is a young adult, but ymmv. It's pretty arbitrary to begin with. It's why, as long as it's between two consenting parties, I don't think it's a big deal.
I was not saying that JM's girlfriends were not legal adults, just that some were (18 and 19-year-old) teens. My original post was in response to the debate of whether the song lyrics indicated attraction to the girl in question. I came down on the side of 'yes' due to the fact that he did date women only a couple years older than MT. But I should have emphasized that they were of legal age, so I apologize if my lack of clarity gave the wrong impression.

Re-reading my subsequent post, I also apologize if my reference to 'common knowledge' seemed patronizing. I meant that I thought I was saying something openly known, and therefore not controversial, or I likely would not have mentioned it at all. Sorry, folks, it's very late/early here, and I'm not very coherent!
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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I think the Character was overpowered, and her eventual defeat by Xavier was based on telepathy working on a robot, which felt odd and unearned. Also, the whole AI in all tech felt, why?

Oh, not that Dangerous?
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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The song does objectify Michelle Trachtenberg, but I can't help but defend it because people do mix up Marsters and Spike and use this song to throw further blame on Spike. There are posters on this site who have called Marsters a pedophile and a rapist. I'm afraid after reading many posts of this nature, without receipts, I tend to jump to his defence automatically, and probably will continue to do so.
Yes let's be honest with ourselves : there is a natural tendency to conflate actor and character (both in positive and negative ways for the actor), and some people just don't care to curb that impulse. Back in the day, I've seen people who didn't like Buffy take every opportunity to slam SMG for instance, when afaik she did nothing to deserve the vitriol. And in my experience, the people constantly bringing up the song happen to be very hostile to his character. Maybe it's a coincidence, but I'm a bit skeptical.

@Stake fodder You did absolutely nothing wrong, but I think this is just a case of having different values and definitions. Teenagers is a vague enough term that it could be interpreted as him dating girls anywhere from 12 to 20 yo, and I don't think I need to explain why the vagueness can lead to some problems down the road o_O
JM's tendency to date younger women is indeed well known, so no controversy there.
Finally, I hope I'm not shocking anyone by saying this but...finding a 15/16 yo attractive is pretty normal. Acting on it is a different thing, but I don't know that I would condemn anyone for feeling attraction.

I think the Character was overpowered, and her eventual defeat by Xavier was based on telepathy working on a robot, which felt odd and unearned. Also, the whole AI in all tech felt, why?

Oh, not that Dangerous?

Writing telepathy working on a robot ? Now that is criminal.
 
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