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Did Spike began changing before getting a soul?

DeadlyDuo

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What exactly would she do to keep Spike away from her superpowered daughter?

He could be dis-invited from the house. She could tell Dawn to stay away from him.

Joyce has time to boil some water before Angel and Buffy arrive. So... 3 or 4 minutes.

The school would be much further away from Buffy's house than 3 or 4 minutes or are you suggesting that both Joyce and Buffy were just too lazy to walk when Joyce dropped Buffy off at School in Welcome to the Helllmouth. Also in School Hard, Joyce tells Buffy to get in the car, obviously so they can go home. Buffy also got a lift to school with that guy in Go Fish, sheer laziness on her part if her house is only 3 or 4 minutes away from school. In fact the school would have to be at the end of Buffy's street if she was to make it back home from there in 3 or 4 minutes, that includes her running.

There is clearly a time lapse between Spike arriving at the house and Joyce making the two of them a hot cocoa. Or are you suggesting that he arrives, completely forgets why he is there in the first place, takes a seat and immediately starts spilling his sorrows in the space of 3 or 4 minutes?

The book Spike needs is in Buffy's house. He didn't kill the clerk until he had what he wanted, either. I'm not even saying he would have, but there's just as much to support her would than he wouldn't.

Spike killed the clerk because he came up with a better idea on how to solve his problem so she was just a convenient snack. Spike knows it would be incredibly stupid to kill Joyce. Sure, he could've killed her and Willow would be at fault for sending him there in the first place, but all that would do is give Buffy a personal reason to want him dead. Also there's no "proof" that Willow actually did leave the book at Buffy's, she said she left it "somewhere". It's only when Spike asks "where?" and gets in her face that she gives the strongly implied answer of Buffy's house.

Anyone can think what they want. What gets me is the volumes of meta written on things that have little-to-no textual basis. The OP is about whether or not Spike had changed before the soul

Clearly Spike changed. In Season 2, he couldn't give a rat's arse about getting a soul. At the end of Season 6, he felt he needed one.

Saw a link to a tumblr post regarding Spike and Dru, questioning Giles' description of Dru as his sometimes paramour. Fanon is they were devout lovers, but that's all it is. Dru cheats on him frequently. The only time it's suggested she didn't was when she was sick in S2. The writing didn't fail. It wasn't a gaffe. The bulk of the text shows she wasn't all that into him.

Completely disagree. First off, Dru and Spike have been together for over a century (met in 1880, first break up in 1998). That's hardly the actions of someone who "wasn't all that into" their partner. Secondly, Dru looks after Spike when he is injured and she continues to sleep with him. There is no benefit for Dru to do so since Spike is not top dog anymore, yet she continues to do so. Again, not the actions of someone who "wasn't all that into" her partner.

Thirdly, aside from Angelus, Dru is pretty faithful to Spike up to post Season 2. The relationship between Angelus and Dru is very complicated, it's very underexplored, but the point is that Spike is quick to call out Dru on the Chaos Demon, showing that he's not blind to her actually cheating on him, but he 100% blames Angelus for the other stuff. That suggests there is an underlying issue there and given what Angelus did to Dru, it isn't a simple case of Dru being "a big ho".

Also, on a side note, Sunnydale was SHOWN to have docks throughout Season 2&3, yet in Season 7 it was SHOWN to be completely landlocked. Inconsistencies happen. but you have to look at stuff surrounding dialogue in order to figure out the actual version of events. I consider the FFL Sprusilla flashback a retcon. In Lovers Walk, not only does Spike retell his tale of woe to two separate people at two separate times in a consistent manner whilst drunk, his emotional reactions also back the story up. In FFL, not only does the Sprusilla break up scene contradict what Spike said happened in Lovers Walk, but it also completely ignores the fact that Spike and Dru did briefly get back together after Lovers Walk before she left him for a fungus demon. At best you could argue that Dawn's insertion into the world altered memories including Spike's memory of the Sprusilla break up to make it all about Spuffy (which makes Lover's Walk the "true" canon of events), at worst it is a glaring retcon.


Angelus would have been trained by the Order of Aurelius,

No he wasn't. He was pretty dismissive of the Master before he and Darla left, with the Master giving their relationship an expiry date of "a century tops." Angelus was just a nasty piece of work.
 

vampmogs

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Not everything Spike says is the truth, but not everything he says is a disgusting lie either. What reasons would he have to lie about occasionally hanging out with Joyce in Forever ? None whatsoever. We do, however, have sufficient reason to believe there were on friendly enough terms, and that they did hang out on a few occasions.

I never said he lied, let alone that he "disgustingly" lied, so you can relax. What I said was that Spike's statement in Forever does not have to mean they socialised besides Lovers Walk and Crush at all. "Always had a cuppa for me" just means whenever they socialised she was welcoming towards him, which can actually just be those two times. He never says he "occasionally hung out with her" at all or ever puts a number on it.

I've laid out my case for why it makes no sense.

1) They are visibly uncomfortable around each other in Checkpoint. Joyce is particularly nervous to be left alone with him and awkwardly tries to make small talk ("I.. uh... love what you've neglected to do with the place"). They are certainly NOT acting like two people who "occasionally hang out" would do. So IMO that clearly rules out socialising between Lovers Walk and Checkpoint. And Joyce's initial uneasiness makes sense considering that their scene in Lover's Walk actually ended with the revelation that Spike was a vampire and Joyce was clearly shaken up ("oh god") when Buffy bursts in and attacks him.

2) Which leave us with the short space of time between Checkpoint and Crush. By this point they've hung out at his crypt and bonded over Passions and there's nothing from Joyce's behaviour to indicate it'd be impossible for them to have socialised occasionally between these episodes. However, Buffy is living back at home by this point and has been for some time. What indication do you have that Buffy would be in any way shape or form happy with Spike of all people popping around "for a cuppa" with her mother? She was clearly weirded the f*ck out about him randomly being in her kitchen in Crush so it's clearly not the norm. And even if you want to chalk that up to her being on edge because she's just found out Spike is in love with her, earlier in the episode (before she even learns of this) she's pissed as hell to find Dawn socialising with him at all ("What is this!!?"). She calls hanging out with him "icky", remember? So to summarise; Buffy is furious Dawn was hanging out with Spike, Buffy is grossed out and unnerved and finds it "icky", and Buffy is disturbed upon finding Spike casually hanging out in her kitchen. However, in spite of all that, people find it entirely plausible that Spike has been popping over for a cuppa with Joyce regularly and Buffy has been totally fine with it? Huh?

So in spite of all that what's your "sufficient reasoning?" It was never shown on screen besides Lovers Walk and Crush (they hung out in Checkpoint but Joyce couldn't have "made a cuppa" for him at his own crypt) and there's far more evidence as shown on screen to contradict it from having occurred other than those 2 times. Not all fanons are reasonable if they're contradicted by the text and Spike's one line in Forever certainly doesn't have to be interpreted that way at all. Until this discussion, I hadn't even realised there were people who did interpret it that way. So, no, I don't think Spike is a "disgusting liar." I don't think Spike "lied" at all. I don't think Spike is saying what you think he's saying, but if you do, I'd love to see some evidence cited to support that reading if you have it. I've laid out mine for why I think he clearly wasn't.
 
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DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
I thought Joyce's "oh god" was because Buffy invited Angel in and it was the first time Joyce and Angel had interacted since Angelus.

Cheese Slices

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@vampmogs My post wasn't directed at you at all , and I am very much relaxed already, thank you ;) I'd seen a post stating that he lied all the time and it didn't make sense to me that he would be lying in this particular instance.
As for the rest:
1) I'm sure it's been addressed before, but it's one thing for Joyce to hang out with Spike in her own house, quite another to hang out in his creepy crypt with skeletons and sh*t. Her first comment is "I love what you've neglected to do with the place", while looking around warily, which does strike me as uneaseness with the environment more than with Spike himself.

I'm not saying they had their weekly hot chocolate session or whatever, only that there probably was more interactions that what we see*. I don't think there's strong evidence one way or the other, we're just interpreting one sentence differently : to me, the inclusion of the word "always" indicates a pattern or habit; to you it doesn't. It's fine, and given that I'm not a native speaker, I might be wrong about this.

*It's the same issue with him and Dawn in S6 : we only ever see him with Buffy post Tabula Rasa, but in Seeing Red Dawn asks several times if the events in Entropy meant that Spike was not going to be around anymore, suggesting that he has been in some fashion. Extra-textually, I think Noxon said that they did continue to interact off screen, but in the text it doesn't really look like it. Note that I do think it more or less works, because for a lot of season we're deep in Buffy's pov. And I think it's why we didn't get those interactions : because it brings Spike to a more mundane space that doesn't fit with Buffy's state of mind at the moment.
 

TriBel

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For what it's worth, I don't think Spike consciously lies. I do think he unconsciously idealizes Joyce (in the same way he idealizes most of his relationships - with Anne, with Buffy, with Cecily, with Dru and with Joyce - and that this often goes hand in hand with the "opposite" - disdain, strong dislike or hatred (not real opposites - two sides of the same coin). I think most of the relationships in BtVS are a synthesis of both these poles but it's most evident in Spike...hence his changeability, his lack of equilibrium.

Joyce, I think, is very much driven by social convention (so small talk, politeness etc.) but there are moments when her desire to be unconventional comes to the surface (such as the conversation with Buffy prior to and after her date with Brian. The date itself is later marked with the conventional...he sends flowers).

I think it's likely there were "off-screen" meetings but it doesn't mean they were all as comfortable for Joyce as they were for Spike...but some could have been.
 

vampmogs

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1) I'm sure it's been addressed before, but it's one thing for Joyce to hang out with Spike in her own house, quite another to hang out in his creepy crypt with skeletons and sh*t. Her first comment is "I love what you've neglected to do with the place", while looking around warily, which does strike me as uneaseness with the environment more than with Spike himself.

IMO, she displays uneasiness with him too. Prior to that moment Buffy reassuringly clasps Joyce's hand and states she'll be back soon and Joyce glances over at Spike nervously before saying "okay." This is just prior to Spike doubling-down on the fact that he's a vampire by pointing out that there's "blood" in the fridge. Prior to this scene, the last scene they ever shared was in Lovers Walk and despite them getting along fine initially, I think people have forgotten how that scene actually ends. Joyce was getting along with Spike prior to learning he was a vampire. The moment Buffy bursts into the kitchen and attacks Spike (and invites Angel in) Joyce is visibly shaken and backs away behind the kitchen counter ("Oh god..."). She's once again puzzled by all of the "slayer talk" and can't make sense of the shift in dynamics (Angel is now on Buffy's side, Spike isn't on Buffy's side and is in fact a vampire, and Willow and possibly Xander are witches). That scene ends with not only Joyce learning that Spike is her daughter's enemy and Buffy genuinely believed Joyce's life was in danger but she also explicitly hears Spike threaten Willow and Xander's life too and reveal he's holding them captive.

So we can interpret Checkpoint two ways. Either Lovers Walk is the last time Joyce has seen Spike in which case her uneasiness in Checkpoint makes sense because the last time they crossed paths Buffy and Spike were coming to blows and Spike was threatening Buffy's friend's lives. Or Lovers Walk isn't the last time Joyce has seen Spike in which case they've presumably hung out off screen, got past the vampire thing off screen, but then Joyce is back to being weary and nervous around him again when entering his crypt. IMO, the former is a lot more linear and reasonable than the latter. The latter requires a lot more unsupportable and unprovable fanon than the original theory which requires nothing but the two canonical scenes that we saw on screen.

And this also isn't taking into account that Spike makes a nasty remark about Joyce in Something Blue. Which not only seems to contradict any kind of affection for Joyce on Spike's behalf throughout S4 but is, again, more in line with his initial unpleasantness towards her when she's left alone in his crypt. It isn't until they mutually bond over their love for Passions that Spike warms to Joyce again.

I'm not saying they had their weekly hot chocolate session or whatever, only that there probably was more interactions that what we see*.

I guess I'm stuck on the "probably" because I think canon contradicts this as being reasonably the case.

*It's the same issue with him and Dawn in S6 : we only ever see him with Buffy post Tabula Rasa, but in Seeing Red Dawn asks several times if the events in Entropy meant that Spike was not going to be around anymore, suggesting that he has been in some fashion. Extra-textually, I think Noxon said that they did continue to interact off screen, but in the text it doesn't really look like it. Note that I do think it more or less works, because for a lot of season we're deep in Buffy's pov. And I think it's why we didn't get those interactions : because it brings Spike to a more mundane space that doesn't fit with Buffy's state of mind at the moment.

I'm actually not a fan of this either. Noxon's flippant remarks that the Spike/Dawn relationship continued offscreen, despite not showing this whatsoever, is really poor storytelling IMO. It pretty much breaks one of the most fundamental rules of writing ("show don't tell"). It also seems pretty contradictory to Spike's attitude towards Dawn throughout the season where he seems to have lost interest in her greatly (As You Were). I think you can read Dawn's "Spike won't be coming around anymore" as a reference to episodes like All the Way or especially Older and Far Away as Buffy's reaction to Spike showing up at her home in Gone, As You Were and Older and Far Away all seem to contradict that it's the norm for him to show up there. And if it were normal for Spike to show up and socialise at the Summer's home then Buffy's OTT reaction to being caught chatting to him in Normal Again is also odd and makes little sense. Nevertheless, I think a stronger argument could be made for Spike hanging around with Dawn offscreen in S6 than it can Spike/Joyce having hot chocolates off screen in S4-S5.
 
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Cheese Slices

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The moment Buffy bursts into the kitchen and attacks Spike (and invites Angel in) Joyce is visibly shaken and backs away behind the kitchen counter ("Oh god..."
I don't see what this has to do with Spike specifically though ? One minute she's having a casual conversation and the next her daughter is pinning the dude on the counter, and everyone is yelling at each other. This scene reads fairly neutral to me, in the sense that Joyce is just way too confused to process anything.
Or Lovers Walk isn't the last time Joyce has seen Spike in which case they've presumably hung out off screen, got past the vampire thing off screen, but then Joyce is back to being weary and nervous around him again when entering his crypt.
Or they have hung out after Checkpoint. I don't understand why you want things to have happened in this particular timespan (Lovers Walk to Checkpoint); They seem on much friendlier and easier terms in Crush, which goes pretty well with the events of Checkpoint and Blood Ties. So an alternative is that they hung around between Checkpont and Crush. But again, I feel like the place in which they meet is significant.
And this also isn't taking into account that Spike makes a nasty remark about Joyce in Something Blue. Which not only seems to contradict any kind of affection for Joyce on Spike's behalf throughout S4 but is, again, more in line with his initial unpleasantness towards her when she's left alone in his crypt. It isn't until they mutually bond over their love for Passions that Spike warms to Joyce again.
My honest thought about the SB stuff is that they went for the mother in law joke, which is cheap and easy, but doesn't really match his character (especially since he's being super nice to Giles). But he does say it, so sure. I don't think I was arguing that he was fond of Joyce in S4 either, more likely he didn't give her much thought.
The crypt scene is set up as a classic comedic effect of Spike wanting to remind everyone that he is the big bad, and a "bad dog", but then immediately talks cheesy soap opera with Buffy's mum. It's IC for Spike to want to maintain his persona when he's doing something that very much goes against it , but I don't think it speaks to a particular dislike of Joyce or Dawn.
It pretty much breaks one of the most fundamental rules of writing ("show don't tell")
Sure, and it wouldn't be the first or last time the show does it ^^
he seems to have lost interest in her greatly (As You Were).
I don't think he's lost interest so much as integrated the fact that Buffy won't allow him to be part of her world ("I can't come inside"). The fact that he says this does seem to imply that he's tried at some point (though it's not much to chew on).
The fact of the matter with this is the writers wanted to capture Buffy's complete self-isolation AND Dawn's completely imposed isolation and that Spike casually hanging out on screen would've somewhat ruined the effect.
 

katmobile

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It's also worth pointing out always doesn't imply frequent perhaps Spike is just remembering Joyce in Lovers Walk. Also you can have some sympathy for someone in pain and still understand they're not someone you want involved with your daughter.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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I think Buffy's death killed Dawn and Spike's friendship.

In "Blood Ties", Dawn proves so good at banter that Spike has to lockpick the Magic Box door to get his own back.

In "Crush", Dawn tells Spike that she likes him, because he talks to her like she can understand stuff.

In "Forever", Spike is kinda like a chaperon, but they are also essentially partners in crime.

In "Tough Love", Spike tells Dawn that you can survive, even if nobody thinks you're good.

They're relationship has an equality to it. They are both feeling like outsiders. Dawn wants an adult person to take her seriously, and Spike does that. But when Buffy dies that changes. Spike becomes Dawn's protector. He assumes the role of adult. This is very obvious when they play cards in "Bargaining." Spike's no longer the cool uncle or older brother who treats her like an equal.
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
huh...great point
EffulgentBitca
EffulgentBitca
It makes sense. Definitely a more satisfying alternative to the "simply continued offscreen" path that the writers chose to take.
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It's a process of becoming that's also a learning process (enforced by the chip - then out of choice. It's debatable how "free" he is to make a choice and there's always a price to be paid (we all make sacrifices in order to belong).

Regarding this, I've just stumbled upon an interesting passage from an essay from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy and I had to share it:

"Is Spike’s “conversion” true, or valid? Or is it simply, as previously discussed, a Pavlovian response to desire? This might be a difficult question to answer were Spike’s behavior radically different from our own. Arguably, at the core of most human behavior is the desire for survival and satisfaction without regard for the needs and wishes of others. It is out of a learned sense of enlightened self-interest that we develop the ability to deal with other people, to live comfortably with our neighbors, for example, even if we might not have chosen them as such were it ours to decide."
 
Priceless
Priceless
I'm reading that at the moment . . . bit of hard going really
RiverandFaith
RiverandFaith
You wouldn't happen to have a link or something to that essay. I'd be very interested in the rest of it. Thx

TriBel

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Regarding this, I've just stumbled upon an interesting passage from an essay from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy and I had to share it:

"Is Spike’s “conversion” true, or valid? Or is it simply, as previously discussed, a Pavlovian response to desire? This might be a difficult question to answer were Spike’s behavior radically different from our own. Arguably, at the core of most human behavior is the desire for survival and satisfaction without regard for the needs and wishes of others. It is out of a learned sense of enlightened self-interest that we develop the ability to deal with other people, to live comfortably with our neighbors, for example, even if we might not have chosen them as such were it ours to decide."

Thanks for that! :) My understanding of "desire" is slightly different because my background's critical/literary/film theory (with an emphasis on post-structuralism/psychoanalysis) rather than philosophy in the traditional sense but I'm in broad agreement (and, TBH, that's far less wordy than my own jargon-laden gobbledygook :rolleyes:).
 

vampmogs

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I don't see what this has to do with Spike specifically though ? One minute she's having a casual conversation and the next her daughter is pinning the dude on the counter, and everyone is yelling at each other. This scene reads fairly neutral to me, in the sense that Joyce is just way too confused to process anything.

How could it be neutral? Joyce has just witnessed Buffy attack the guy because she believes he's a threat to her. Joyce has just found out he's a vampire. Joyce then sees Spike lunge violently at her daughter. Joyce then overhears Spike reveal that he's holding Buffy's friends hostage. Joyce then overhears Spike threaten their lives. How would anyone walk away from that encounter with a "neutral" opinion of the guy? In fact, even when Joyce can get along pleasantly enough with Spike, we know she doesn't have a neutral opinion of him. She calls him "pretty twisted" and believes he's likely to become "dangerous."

Or they have hung out after Checkpoint. I don't understand why you want things to have happened in this particular timespan (Lovers Walk to Checkpoint);

Huh? The whole second part of my post specifically addressed the timeline between Checkpoint and Crush?

They seem on much friendlier and easier terms in Crush, which goes pretty well with the events of Checkpoint and Blood Ties. So an alternative is that they hung around between Checkpont and Crush. But again, I feel like the place in which they meet is significant.

As I said in my previous post, can you imagine Buffy being ok with Spike and her mother "hanging around" between Checkpoint and Crush? Did she look ok with it when she stumbled upon Spike in her kitchen in Crush? Or when she was majorly pissed off that Dawn was hanging around Spike ("what the hell is this!?")? Or when she was genuinely unnerved and grossed out by the idea of her sister hanging with Spike and called it "icky?" Buffy's feelings about Spike, and Spike being anywhere near her family members, is well-established at this period of the show and they're not good. Buffy is living with Joyce at this point in the series and since we already know how "icky" she considers her family hanging out with Spike to be, what makes it likely to you that Joyce and Spike were hanging out and having cuppas together? It doesn't make sense.
 

Cheese Slices

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How could it be neutral?
The fact that she's not confused about Spike only, but about Xander and Willow. I don't think she can start worrying about Spike in this scene because there's just too much stuff and tmi happening and being thrown around.
Huh? The whole second part of my post specifically addressed the timeline between Checkpoint and Crush?
Sorry about that, I'm sick and feverish and my reading comprehension is not 100%.
what makes it likely to you that Joyce and Spike were hanging out and having cuppas together? It doesn't make sense.
What does Buffy have to do with this ? She is not always at home. It's not the least likely scenario in the world to think that they briefly met once or twice without Buffy knowing about it. I mean, Joyce inviting strange men in her house is kind of a running joke 😆

Look, it's really not a hill I'm willing to die on, but there is obvious enough wiggle room and ambiguity in his statement to have multiple interpretations. I don't think one is better than the other, hence why I'm not that willing to dismiss either side.
 
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@RiverandFaith Here's a link to the whole book, but you have to download a reading app for it. But honestly that app is pretty much a life-saver so it's worth it. That quote is from Spike's conversion that's part of the 18th chapter of the book, an essay entitled No Big Win: Themes of Sacrifice, Salvation, and Redemption and written by Gregory J. Sakal.

 

Priceless

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@RiverandFaith Here's a link to the whole book, but you have to download a reading app for it. But honestly that app is pretty much a life-saver so it's worth it. That quote is from Spike's conversion that's part of the 18th chapter of the book, an essay entitled No Big Win: Themes of Sacrifice, Salvation, and Redemption and written by Gregory J. Sakal.

I've been reading this book for moths 🤣 It's not easy going, it's pretty dry.
 
EffulgentBitca
EffulgentBitca
Yeah, I also had to take my time with it. There are definitely parts that I couldn't bring myself to truly care for, but thanks to some intriguing thoughts and concepts scattered throughout it I've found this worth the read so far.
TriBel
TriBel
Yeah...I've got it but I prefer Rhonda Wilcox. Buffy goes Dark isn't too bad (S6/7) - though I only remember the Wilcox essay in that.

FaithLehane16

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No. The time he actually started to change, selflessly, was in the 5th season of Angel. In Power Play, Angel started to respect him.
 
K
katmobile
Disagree and Angel's opinion isn't the arbiter of anything beyond itself.
S

SpikeRocks

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I think people drastically overestimate Spike's role in the lives of Joyce and Dawn and he in theirs.

Spike protects Dawn because of Buffy. He doesn't not tell Glory because of Dawn herself. He says as much. It's for Buffy. Buffy asks him to look after them and he does because Spike is loyal. The only time we see him interact with Joyce is at Buffy's behest. He takes flowers to Buffy's house, not to Joyce's gravestone. Once Buffy returns, he shows no interest in Dawn and doesn't have much issue using her as leverage to stay in Buffy's life.
Well, I'd say that's an inaccurate interpretation of the things......Hmm, we have Spike in Forever, trying to help Dawn, wanting Buffy to NEVER find out his involvement, all because he "doesn't like Summers' women taking it so hard on the chin." We have Spike in Tough Love, trying to comfort Dawn and reassure her she isn't evil.....that's nothing to do with earning brownie-points with Buffy. Spike's pretty consistently shown his own fondness for Dawn in S5 and S6, independent of his feelings for Buffy, whenever he's enjoying her company and whenever he goes out of his way to try to comfort her when she's distressed (Scary stories Dawn and Spike, B&E Dawn and Spike, Winnebago Dawn and Spike, Bargaining Dawn and Spike, Seeing Red Dawn and Spike, to name some more). Spike never uses her as leverage to stay in Buffy's life.......are you trying to refer to Wrecked? Where BUFFY brings Spike in to help find Willow/Dawn, and Spike points out that she needs him for her work sometimes, like in situations like this. Definitely wouldn't call that him using Dawn as leverage....at best she's used as an example, because Buffy has literally needed him countless other times to protect/save Dawn (numerous times for Glory, while Buffy was dead, in All the Way, in OMWF, in Wrecked, etc.).

Lover's Walk.....Spike certainly wasn't seeking Joyce, but he STAYED because he enjoyed her company and motherly-ear for his woes. He takes flowers to Buffy's house and not Joyce's gravestone, because she DOESN'T HAVE a gravestone yet....she hasn't been buried yet at this point. He also does visit her grave later on, where he finds Dawn. No matter the Buffy-motivated circumstances that threw Spike and Joyce together, when Spike brings the flowers and summarizes how he felt about Joyce/their relationship, he's being sincere and accurate.
 
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AstridDante

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Yes very much so. The fact that he continued to care for Dawn and work with the Scoobies even after Buffy was dead. He was a bit of an anomaly as far as vampires were concerned. However he was limited by his soulless status.
 

DeadlyDuo

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He was a bit of an anomaly as far as vampires were concerned. However he was limited by his soulless status.

I don't think Spike is the anomaly amongst vampires. It's Angelus and his complete lack of humanity which is the anomaly. However, the show can't humanise the vampire characters too much outside of Spike and Angel otherwise it begins to make Buffy look bad for staking them.

One of the best things about season 2 is that it expands the vampire characterisations via Spike and Dru and shows that they're not just some mindless monster for Buffy to kill. Here we see a couple in a loving relationship, who have been together over a century, and whose "master plan" is to cure one of them who is ill. Spike cares for Dru when she is sick and then Dru cares for Spike when he is injured. They work as a team and partnership.
 
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