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Did Spike began changing before getting a soul?

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
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39
It occurs to me to wonder...how much of Spike in season 5 on is actually "pure Spike" and not "mind-altered Spike by the monks"? The spell affected him as well, and he was protective of Dawn even early on in this seasons. I think it's a relative question for this thread about Spike's overall behavior.

I will add that my personal head canon is that Spike was the monk's back up plan. If Buffy fell, Dawn was to go to Spike. Glory would never think to look at Spike (at least not before her spies caught him with the Buffybot). A vampire would not be seen as helping a Slayer, and a girl who went to a vampire is typically considered self-delivering food, so Spike would likely have a head start before Glory even thought to look in his direction (and she didn't have a lot of time left, and who knows where Spike could hide in Africa? :p ). Naturally, they had to make Spike inclined to do this, and also make sure Buffy didn't stake Spike as she should've, and would've without a lot of plot armor (or my head canon).
 
vznspike
vznspike
this makes a lot sense, but I think they probably done it cause there was something already there, all they had to do was amplify it

katmobile

Scooby
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Messages
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It occurs to me to wonder...how much of Spike in season 5 on is actually "pure Spike" and not "mind-altered Spike by the monks"? The spell affected him as well, and he was protective of Dawn even early on in this seasons. I think it's a relative question for this thread about Spike's overall behavior.

I will add that my personal head canon is that Spike was the monk's back up plan. If Buffy fell, Dawn was to go to Spike. Glory would never think to look at Spike (at least not before her spies caught him with the Buffybot). A vampire would not be seen as helping a Slayer, and a girl who went to a vampire is typically considered self-delivering food, so Spike would likely have a head start before Glory even thought to look in his direction (and she didn't have a lot of time left, and who knows where Spike could hide in Africa? :p ). Naturally, they had to make Spike inclined to do this, and also make sure Buffy didn't stake Spike as she should've, and would've without a lot of plot armor (or my head canon).
I don't agree but if it works for you.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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28
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Question for you: How do you interpret Spike taking care of Dawn and working with the Scoobies after Buffy's dead?
Question for you: How would you like it if a man made a sex bot after you? Another question: Would you like a man who isolates you from your friends and keeps you in the dark?
 
Puppet
Puppet
Nice way to deflect and not actually answer the question.

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,611
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31
It occurs to me to wonder...how much of Spike in season 5 on is actually "pure Spike" and not "mind-altered Spike by the monks"? The spell affected him as well, and he was protective of Dawn even early on in this seasons. I think it's a relative question for this thread about Spike's overall behavior.

I think Spike's dream at the end of Out of My Mind was when the spell hit him, that's why he had the dream.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
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Question for you: How would you like it if a man made a sex bot after you? Another question: Would you like a man who isolates you from your friends and keeps you in the dark?
No and she is not impressed. No and he doesn't she's already isolated because of how she feels and what she does - he only tries when she's leaving and she doesn't give in to it.

Ok my turn - would you be impressed if someone geuninely tried to change for you? If they endured pain and torment to do so or to protect someone you cared deeply about? Would you at least feel some compassion for them if trying to change caused them pain and torment - for example if they went cold turkey on drinks or drugs they'd be using for a long time? Would you help them if they were struggling because of it?

Spike is complex and he's also not a direct symbol of a RL person. He can't be mapped straight onto to a RL life example perfectly. I get why people who have experienced the RL equivalent negative side don't get that but please... do the rest of us a favour and don't make assumptions about those with a different perspective. These what abouts are so patronising and over simplified.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
3,522
Location
Manchester
Question for you: How would you like it if a man made a sex bot after you? Another question: Would you like a man who isolates you from your friends and keeps you in the dark?

That's a partial reading. Spike made the Bot for reasons other than just sex. How would you feel if a man used emotional blackmail to gently coerce you into turning yourself into an inanimate object? From Intervention:
BUFFY: "Yeah. Strength, resilience ... those are all words for hardness. (pause) I'm starting to feel like ... being the Slayer is turning me into stone".

Moreover, coerced you when you were still grieving. There's reason this conversation with Giles begins the episode with the Bot. The Bot has little long term effect on Buffy. In contradistinction, I'd say the conversation with Giles clearly marks the beginning of her "depression". In the absence of a statement from a trained professional, all evidence points to Buffy's state of mind being Melancholia. Melancholia's a deep depression often linked to a failure in the mourning process. More theoretically, it's used by certain schools of feminist thought to figure the psycho-social processes that create a schism between mother/daughter and perpetuate female oppression. They use the Bot to replace the Slayer - which suggests both are automatons. What it doesn't (really) replace is Buffy. That said, we see Dawn cuddling it; we see Tara trying to rationalise with it; we see Willow explaining things to it. I think it raises questions about what constitutes "human".

He doesn't really try to separate her from her friends. Rightly or wrongly, she separates herself. She's on a flawed therapeutic journey. Perhaps with the best intentions, IDK, she refuses to talk to her friends. Instead, she enters into dialogue with a man she bars from speaking (she only gets some sort of clarity when she's forced to talk) and whose words she rejects. In the beginning he tells her to go back to them. He suggests she tries his world. In fact, he's a "dirty thing" who wants her to come clean about this "thing" they have. He wants to be in her world. Don't be fooled by the "light/dark" binary. You can't "see" (a common metaphor for "know") in full darkness but you can also be blinded by light. This metaphor is central to S7. Hand in hand, they create an alternative "enlightenment".

It occurs to me to wonder...how much of Spike in season 5 on is actually "pure Spike" and not "mind-altered Spike by the monks"? The spell affected him as well, and he was protective of Dawn even early on in this seasons. I think it's a relative question for this thread about Spike's overall behavior.

Being in love is often figured as under a spell - mostly, I think because we don't feel "in charge". Western thought doesn't like the idea humans aren't rational with full autonomy (unless we're talking about divine determination). However, for me, there's enough textual evidence to support non-magical processes. His feelings for Buffy can be inferred from his psychology (out of his mind); his past history; and the other discourses the text brings into play. That said, were your "head-canon" be confirmed, I could accommodate it.

In answer to the OP - yes, he starts to change before the soul. The chip acts as a rudimentary "yes/no". It applies the same sort of logic a parent uses with a young child (yes/no - because it is). He'll find loopholes and he'll test against the reality principle (as a child does) but his "growth" has already begun.
 

AstridDante

Potential
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
385
Age
43
100 % I think he was starting to get conditioned from having the chip in place but it was mainly his love for Buffy that truly changed him. He started to care about the things she cared about for example Dawn. He showed he was capable of love and even empathy. See fool for love episode, the porch scene. Even the way he worked with the Scoobies after Buffy died. I think that is what was so frustrating to him that in S6 Buffy didn’t think he was capable of change or love but he was. However despite the obvious humanity he displayed he was limited by the lack of soul and his demon nature
 
S

SpikeRocks

Guest
Question for you: How would you like it if a man made a sex bot after you? Another question: Would you like a man who isolates you from your friends and keeps you in the dark?
I didn't ask you a question in an antagonizing way whatsoever, I'm genuinely curious how you interpret/read behaviors where Spike acts "redeem-ably" without any possible expectation to "get into Buffy's pants" (as you put it), and gave you an example from when she was dead. If you can't answer that and support your view, then maybe just hold off on any response at all 😉

As to your questions:
I have no problem with sex dolls, nor really advanced AI sex dolls.....nor any sex toy....nor anybody's choice of getting off, so long as they don't hurt others. Also, like @TriBel said, I wouldn't call the Buffbot something made purely for sex.

And, unless you completely misunderstood the character of Buffy throughout the entire series, she isolates herself from her friends/others all the time. It's a huge part of her character that she and others openly talk about on many occasions. That character trait is not on Spike, though he was no help by encouraging it during that period of her life.
 
TriBel
TriBel
See: Lars & the Real Girl (Gillespie) and Air Doll (Hirokazu Kore-eda). Both films about "sex dolls", both deal with what it means to be human. And no - I don't have a fetish - they just happen to be good films. :))

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
6,416
Black Thorn
I like to relate the lack of soul to a version of narcissism, where a lack of empathy for others and a sense of entitlement is forefront. I really enjoy the vampires on the show for their representation of the worst of ourselves, so I don't like to think Spike changed much before getting a soul. Not to say he doesn't evolve but I what I get out of it and enjoy most is seeing the struggle of what it is to be empathetic. I feel like Spike knows on a logical level what he needs to do and be but lacks that part of the brain (in human terms) to do it and understand it, and that's where his internal struggle comes from.

I definitely thought he was more interesting before he got his soul, and kinda wished that's not how season 6 ended as a season with that last shot. I would have preferred a shot of Buffy to bookend it, and let us discover the Spike-with-soul business in season 7.
 
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