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Question Does anyone know if Angelus raped as well as tortured?

Stake fodder

What about my me?
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Why is the same standard not set for torture? They are on the same level of unsettling acts to watch.
I think they are pretty light on the torture scenes, too. I can only say for myself that I find rape scenes more disturbing, because often they are done for titillating effect, which is not true of torture or murder scenes. We'll just be glad that Angel turned good again!
 
P

Paulrina

Guest
Probably
Cause He is worst of worst in his kind.The ones I remember;

-
Holtz's wife
-A woman in Amends
-The Gypsy girl who is the reason why He is cursed
 
T
thrasherpix
While I see Holtz as a villain, I can't help but root for him at times, at least until he gets his hands on Connor, and even then I understand his thinking.

thrasherpix

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Why is the same standard not set for torture? They are on the same level of unsettling acts to watch.
One, society pressure. It has always been hypocritical, but most people abide. (And in real life many if not most would be more outraged that a director or someone like Joss bullied or even raised his voice to an actor or actress they liked than the everyday sexual abuses of kids on the street, etc. I'm not counting "safe" activities like tweeting, at least some of which are just for the endorphin rush of the thumbs up than actually giving a damn, not that different from people who act holy and dress up for church but then turn into their usual profane, perverted, corrupt scumbags after leaving church.)

Two, there are far fewer (that more than many realize) victims of torture (at least who'd watch this show) than there are of rape.

Muddying it is the vampirism and sex/rape metaphor. Sometimes it's "forbidden sex" but other times in vampire fiction it's rape, and on the nose blunt about it (though only depicted as vampire violence) in some shows and movies, and yet with plausible deniability for those who wish to do so (be it writers with censors or fans with others).
 
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Angelus also makes a comment in season 4 to Fred. There are a couple of other times where something is said in the show, but I can't remember right now.

"I bet you Wes would never hit her. He's all proper and English. And that accent... ooh, chicks just love a good accent. Makes them all buttery in their nether regions. Isn't that right, Fred? You know, I had a bit of an Irish brogue back in the day. If you like, I can use it on you when I rape you to death."
 

Cohen

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Rating. Buffy moved to a new network for Season 6 and 7, one that didn't have its censorship guidelines set up yet so the writers took the opportunity to push boundaries with the Spuffy sex because they could (hence why Season 6 is the season with the most sex), they had to tone it back for Season 7 because then the network had got it's censorship in place. It's also why they could be so graphic with the AR and make it so prolonged because there was nothing stopping them.

Buffy Seasons 1-5 and Angel the show remained on WB so they had to imply rather than show.
Buffy moved to UPN in season 6, which is was the same age as the WB. The difference is while the WB leaned hard in the teen demo at that time, UPN’s target demo skewed older. Both networks were established at that time.
 

janas

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There is no episode in any season where a scene is said or seen where Angelus has ever sexually raped any woman. Sure Angelus tortured and brutally killed a lot of people, but rape is never mentioned. Angelus tortures his victims more psychologically than physically, as he did with Buffy and Drusilla, and doesn't seem to be particularly interested in rape. Many fans claim that Angelus raped Drusilla, but there is nothing in the canon to indicate this is true. Angelus mentally tortured Drusilla until she was crazy, but there is never any talk of rape.

For this Angelus is extremely more dangerous, because he is a mad sadistic psychopath.

Then the story changes, Angelus is cursed by the gypsies and the scenario changes.
In the story of the narrative he becomes the "eunuch" and the rapist is another vampire, just as dangerous, second only to Angelus in wickedness.
 

Plasma

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Black Thorn
I think it’s more of a “up to the viewer” sort of situation. There are hints and suggestions, but never a direct statement.

As far as I’m aware, neither show comes out and says Angelus was a rapist. What the shows do say is that Liam was a womanizing drunk before his vampirism and became a terrifying menace after the vampirism. It’s theoretically possible that sort of behavior would carry over to his vampire days, with a potential increase due to the lack of danger or consequences.

Angelus is a real piece of work and delights in torturing and making people suffer. Think back to Passion, where he not only killed Jenny (whilst cracking jokes the whole time!), but posed her, set up a whole situation to mentally and emotionally scar Giles, then went to Buffy’s house to watch her get the news because he reveled in the grief and torment. That episode alone shows that he is just a cruel monster.

That being said, it’s my belief that if Angelus thought raping someone would horrifically torment another, he would have done it in a heartbeat. He loves nothing but suffering and anguish, and sexual assault checks those categories bigtime. The shows never showed this because you can’t show that kind of horrific content on TV (I also doubt a large portion of the audience would enjoy seeing it. Example: Seeing Red) and because it would have sabotaged Angel’s character bigtime. There’s a massive difference between Angelus killing/torturing people and Angelus being a sexual sadist, and I think the latter is much harder for an audience to look past and absolve, regardless of if it was a different personality or not.

Just my thoughts though! :)
 

ILLYRIAN

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I regard rape as a form of torture and as Angelus liked to torture I think it is a bit obvious.
I think you might do better to ask if Angelus preferred to rape women or men.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I never understand why anyone would think that evil vampires with power would not rape. In my story where i have Dru get her soul, she's got to contend with the fact she seduced men and turned them during the act of sex (which to my mind was rape) - because either the men didn't consent or were tricked into sex. And yes, rape victims are often aroused. It is one of the reasons rape messes with so many people. They don't want it, yet their bodies tell a different stories b/c the mechanics of sex often work regardless of what the victim wants.

I love Angel and I love Spike. I do believe that Spike changed (even though he lacked the capacity for full moral judgment -- something that is demonstrated clearly to HIM when he tries to 'prove his love' by forcing himself on Buffy. He didn't intend it as 'rape' but it would have been rape had he succeeded -- because as a vampire, his way of dealing with conflict lacked any kind of moral component... this is why he talked about getting Dru back by force after his attempt at a love spell fails back in season 3. He has no moral compass. Buffy, though she changed his HEART could not give him one. It's why I don't think they could ever have been together until after he got his soul, even though I believe Buffy began to fall in love with Spike after Intervention and fought her feelings until she came back wrong and screwed up and broken and unable to forgive or turn to her friends....

I do believe that Spike loved Buffy before his soul. I don't believe it was sufficient. The attempted rape PROVED that he needed a soul. Fortunately, his love for Buffy was enough for Spike to recognize that... it was NOT enough to make him a moral agent and Buffy could not have an equal relationship with anyone who didn't have moral agency.

Yes, many of us view rape as worse than murder -- i think it's because there's NEVER any justification for forcing someone to submit to sex. There can be justification for killing. So... even killers can get forgiven. Rapists seldom are seen as redeemable b/c it's such an act of violation without any possible justification or mitigation.

In my mind the mitigation that makes souled Spike and souled Angel forgiveable is the fact of their souls... and that they both CHOOSE to live as men and make moral choices as men, in spite of their coexistence with the demons inside them. In some ways this makes them more deliberately moral than many humans.... They have to fight the nature that is just pure predator that tells them to 'take' whatever they can and whatever they desire.
 

Kendar

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As someone mentioned earlier he certainly claimed that he had done this to Holtz's wife. There's also some implication that this is part of what helped drive Dru insane.
 

garfan

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I never understand why anyone would think that evil vampires with power would not rape. In my story where i have Dru get her soul, she's got to contend with the fact she seduced men and turned them during the act of sex (which to my mind was rape) - because either the men didn't consent or were tricked into sex. And yes, rape victims are often aroused. It is one of the reasons rape messes with so many people. They don't want it, yet their bodies tell a different stories b/c the mechanics of sex often work regardless of what the victim wants.

I love Angel and I love Spike. I do believe that Spike changed (even though he lacked the capacity for full moral judgment -- something that is demonstrated clearly to HIM when he tries to 'prove his love' by forcing himself on Buffy. He didn't intend it as 'rape' but it would have been rape had he succeeded -- because as a vampire, his way of dealing with conflict lacked any kind of moral component... this is why he talked about getting Dru back by force after his attempt at a love spell fails back in season 3. He has no moral compass. Buffy, though she changed his HEART could not give him one. It's why I don't think they could ever have been together until after he got his soul, even though I believe Buffy began to fall in love with Spike after Intervention and fought her feelings until she came back wrong and screwed up and broken and unable to forgive or turn to her friends....

I do believe that Spike loved Buffy before his soul. I don't believe it was sufficient. The attempted rape PROVED that he needed a soul. Fortunately, his love for Buffy was enough for Spike to recognize that... it was NOT enough to make him a moral agent and Buffy could not have an equal relationship with anyone who didn't have moral agency.

Yes, many of us view rape as worse than murder -- i think it's because there's NEVER any justification for forcing someone to submit to sex. There can be justification for killing. So... even killers can get forgiven. Rapists seldom are seen as redeemable b/c it's such an act of violation without any possible justification or mitigation.

In my mind the mitigation that makes souled Spike and souled Angel forgiveable is the fact of their souls... and that they both CHOOSE to live as men and make moral choices as men, in spite of their coexistence with the demons inside them. In some ways this makes them more deliberately moral than many humans.... They have to fight the nature that is just pure predator that tells them to 'take' whatever they can and whatever they desire.


In my opinion the Master and some like him would consider sex to human
 

DeepBlueJoy

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In my opinion the Master and some like him would consider sex to human
But rape is not about sex, it is about power, domination and control - about maximum destruction of the prey. I don't believe conscienceless beings of huge power would be 'above' rape.
 
T
thrasherpix
Especially considering it's used by professional torturers on men and women, even if they use foreign objects at times.
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