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Fan Club Forums/Fan Only Threads

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Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Sineya
The staff has been discussing the fan club forums for Bangel and Spuffy for a long while now, because we feel they don't exactly work as well as they could. We still want people to feel they can discuss their ship without being attacked, but many are feeling excluded from them as they are now. So we're going to try some changes and see if it helps. We ask that you try it out and if it doesn't work we can adjust it.

1. "Fan Only" Threads will not be allowed

We've also seen an uptick in different types of threads being marked "fan only". The board is for discussion, and telling people which threads they can post in is really contrary to the community we have here. It also gets into the area of "what is a fan" which I don't think we want to do. Please don't mark threads "fan only" anywhere on the board - we will edit or delete threads that do so.

2. Threads will be more closely monitored to stay aligned with their intent

Though people are free to post in all threads on the board, we will be making sure that, along with keeping on topic, posting keeps to the intent of the thread. If someone starts a thread to share favorite Willow moments, for example, it should be used to share favorite Willow moments. I hate Willow, but I am perfectly okay posting that when Willow dressed up as an Eskimo is my favorite Willow moment. I cannot, however, post, "Any time we see Willow's back because that means she's leaving." We'll be deleting or sending to the cemetery nasty comments or posts meant to derail the intended topic of the thread. Remember, being nasty and disrespectful is not "just expressing your opinion". There are other threads in which to express your dislike of a character, etc. (or if not, you can start one).

3. Change to Bangel and Spuffy forum descriptions

We have changed the forum descriptions to remove the verbiage that it's a fan club, and for fans only. As this has never really been how those forums have worked. All members are welcome to continue to post in those forums. The intent of the forums was to keep threads from becoming bash fests or filled with disrespectful comments, not to exclude non-shippers from threads, but unfortunately the latter is occurring. These spaces will continue to be ship positive: use good judgement when posting - discussion can still be had but bashing of the ship won't be allowed. If the conversation makes you want to take things in a less positive and more critical direction, then you are free to open your own thread in the main Lover's Walk forum.

4. Please refrain from telling other members to "get out" of forums or threads

If you feel a member has posted inappropriately, please use the report button. Please let the staff decide what is permissible and what isn't; also, telling off members in threads only leads to bad feelings.

A final word about the issues in Bangel and Spuffy threads: remember that if other members' opinions are treated respectfully, then the need for "fans only" spaces disappears. It is when we attack each other that people seek to exclude people from the discussion. This is a discussion board, and we want to all be able to share our thoughts and opinions. So we would encourage people to think before they post, and consider how they would want to be treated.

:)
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I would love it if we could spend a little less time in the fan forums and collectively discuss our likes and dislikes of different part of the show we all love. We've been locked away in our separate echo chambers a little too often. Berlin 1989? Hasselhoff?
 

Mylie

Scooby
Joined
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Just want to say thank you for taking this issue seriously and coming up with a clear answer on what is allowed/ not allowed.

I will miss the Bangels only threads but I guess there are other places on the internet to have those discussions so whatever. :)
 

flow

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
813
remember that if other members' opinions are treated respectfully, then the need for "fans only" spaces disappears. It is when we attack each other that people seek to exclude people from the discussion. This is a discussion board, and we want to all be able to share our thoughts and opinions. So we would encourage people to think before they post, and consider how they would want to be treated.

Nice words. They would have felt a bit more convincing, if you hadn`t put up this quote on the front page at almost the same moment, you posted them:

"It's season 6, what isn't retcon is some other type of WTF."

I love season 6. I think, it is the best season of seven seasons of BtVS and five seasons of AtS. And the reason, I feel the need, for a fan only space is, that I want to discuss every aspect of season 6 and I am willing and ready to discuss it with people who have different views or have a more critical approach to it than I have, but I just don`t want to read crap like this.

flow
 
T
thrasherpix
Just so you know, I still plan to stay out of the Spuffy (and Bangel) forums.

Buffy Summers

Yataro
Staff member
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Messages
33,966
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Sineya
First of all, there really is no need to be so hostile.

Second, there are tons of quotes in the quote list. Most of which I manually copied from our old quotation system that other people had entered. Just because I put them in there, doesn't mean I agree with them. Also I added that quote on Monday, long before I made this thread yesterday. Because that was when I read the post.

Third, there is nothing that says every person has to like every season out there. A member made a nice turn of phrase about season 6, so I added it to the random quote. If you say something funny about season 1 having bad production values or being immature, should I not add that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are stating that that is an anti-Spuffy quote? I'm going to be honest, I don't see how not liking season 6 equates to hating Spuffy. That quote, if you follow the link to the thread, is talking about how Sam arrives in season 6 and is like super woman to an unbelievable degree. Off the top of my head, the other WTF moments or retcons from season 6 (this list does not imply that I am in agreement with them, just that these are things people say are retcons or not believable):
  • That Buffy comes out of her grave fresh as a daisy when the folks from the Zeppo were not so fresh
  • Spike being able to enter the Trio's lair without being invited
  • Dawn's vampire classmates being able to attend school in the day
  • Why did they have a gravestone for Buffy if they were trying to hide her death?
  • How is there another song after Sweet leaves in OMWF?
  • The Buffy in an Asylum retcon
  • Why didn't the Scoobies get Faith instead of using the Buffybot
  • Spike as the Doctor, suddenly a villain again after this road to redemption he was on
  • Xander doing the Sweet spell and not mentioning it ever
I can't even think of a retcon that is negative to Spike or Spuffy in season 6. Isn't Season 7 the Spuffy season anyway?

For probably one to two years now, I have been bombarded with people complaining to me about the fan club forums and screaming at me to get rid of them. And I'm sure a lot of that has happened behind my back too. And even though I find it problematic because it makes it confusing where non-fan Bangel and Spuffy stuff should be posted, I kept them and argued for them, because I know that getting attacked when you just want to talk about the top 5 Spuffy (or Bangel) kisses sucks.

I refrained from posting threads involving Spike or Angel on the board until recently so that the threads wouldn't become attacking. (And only started doing it recently so that those who were feeling excluded by the fan forums had something to post in). And then, I had people posting hostile replies to me personally, assuming I'm a Spike or Spuffy hater, which I am not, even when I was intending to be complimentary to Spike. I have said on numerous occasions that I like the idea of Spuffy, but that I dislike the way it was executed and feel that Buffy should have loved Spike as he was. If I had thought it was an anti-Spuffy (or Bangel) quote, there is no way in hell I would have added it to the shoutbox, because I know the kind of reaction I would get. And, I just wouldn't.

To be honest, I feel a little bit put out to be getting accused of things like this when I have gone out of my way to make sure that people aren't bashing Spuffy, and to take shipper feelings into account when making decisions about the board and the new rules in this thread.

If someone has a concern about something on the quote box, or anywhere on the board, please do ask about it. That is much preferable to jumping to conclusions in this manner, posting a nasty attack, and painting me as some despot who sits around and thinks of ways to persecute ship groups, which is frankly just not true. And as for this thread topic, honestly, it only lays out the way these forums have already been working, and puts into effect more protection for all members who want to discuss their favorite characters and ships.
 
S
Spanky
good for you!

The Bronze

Rogue Demon Hunter
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Black Thorn
Getting the balance right between inclusiveness and positive areas people feel comfortable in is clearly a little tricky. This suggestion seems perfectly reasonable to me. Obviously if it's not to anyone's liking then there are other places which would cater to a more specific shipper friendly taste. Come here for general talk and elsewhere for shipper stuff or whatever else.

There's no need to lay into Buffy who's providing everyone with a free to use platform that the vast majority of us are very happy with and grateful for.
 
S
Spanky
providing it on her own dime... not like we pay membership dues (which I do on another forum). It's free entertainment... in a world where there ain't much free entertainment left!

Antho

Scooby
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Montauban (France)
I also think that people have to be able to take a step back and not take things personally, which I think many people do, including me sometimes. A criticism that it is positive or negative and whatever the subject, as long as there is no vulgarity expressed then the person has the right to speak and it does not have to censor itself all because that it could hurt some susceptible fans. If I want to say that season 6 is the worst season and Spuffy extremely unhealthy and that Bangel is a boring teenagers couple, well I do not judge the fans, it's just an opinion.
 

Buffy Summers

Yataro
Staff member
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Here is a better example. Should Bangels have been angry that I approved this picture in the gallery?

IMG_7268

I approved it, because it was funny. Not because I wanted to belittle Bangels.
 
S
Spanky
but hey, I never felt belittled!
T
thrasherpix
I laughed, but I have to watch my humor. I don't think a guy should be allowed to do that with impunity in real life, mind you, but it can be funny as a joke. (Also, I'm not a Bangel, but I wouldn't care if I was.)
PaulParmar1
PaulParmar1
Haha sorry about that photo.

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
24,324
Black Thorn
Here is a better example. Should Bangels have been angry that I approved this picture in the gallery?
IMG_7268
I approved it, because it was funny. Not because I wanted to belittle Bangels.
It's very sexist. I feel triggered.

Of course I'm not a bangel so maybe I wasn't allowed to answer. Going off on a tangent but I just had some fitters in come and he was talking about how they now have to go in pairs on visits in case people complain being that a male doctor met a woman alone in her house. It's to prevent allegations.
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Fair enough

flow

Scooby
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
813
Okay, I don`t have the feeling this will lead to anything useful,. But I am going to try just one more time.

The OP of that quote was of course entitled to post that quote in whatever context she liked. It doesn`t even matter if the quote was made in a context where Spuffy was mentioned or if it was mentioned in a context, where someone talked about how nice Buffy`s hair looked after she crawled out of her grave.

But if you as the admin of this board take the quote out of that particular context and put it up on the quotations, I cannot help to feel, that this is a statement. Of course you are entitled to make whatever statement you want.

The only thing I dare to ask, is:

Why do some people feel the need for a safe haven ? Why do some people feel, they can talk and discuss openly only or at least more so within this safe haven ?

Every single topic that has been discussed on the Bangels or the Spuffy fan club in the past could have been read by every other member of this board, if they wanted to read it. If I found a particular Bangel thread very interesting, I could have just opened a new thread wherever on this board and could have discussed it with everyone. Technically I could have even joined in every thread on the Bangels fan club. I would not have done it, because the description said, that this section was for Bangel fans only and I did and do not identify myself as such. But really,

I do understand, that from you point of view there is no change at all, because non-shippers were always allowed to post in the shipper Fanclubs and even did sometimes. And I was more than willing, to accept your decision antry not to feel, as if a safe haven has been taken away from me.. But having to read the anti season 6 quote, that was put up by you and showed up as a random Quote just the same day, does give me the impression, I am not wanted here any more.

And to make that very clear as well: I have never ever screamed at you or any admin or member of this board.

flow
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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Black Thorn
But having to read the anti season 6 quote, ... does give me the impression, I am not wanted here any more.
I read stuff I don't agree with all the time. I don't know why one would feel like they are not wanted when they read something that speaks negative on something they like. I don't understand fandom sometimes. It's like the Marvel vs DC people. I don't know why someone not liking something affects how another feels about it.

I don't like Bangel. I don't like Spuffy. I don't like Xander and I loathe Willow. I don't like season 5 thru 7 very much but... that's life. I am not going to say I do not feel welcome here because others have a difference of opinion and the admin sometimes "sides" with a group that thinks differently than I.
 
GwenRaiden
GwenRaiden
Seems like real paranoid behaviour to me.

Buffy Summers

Yataro
Staff member
Joined
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Messages
33,966
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Sineya
It doesn`t even matter if the quote was made in a context where Spuffy was mentioned or if it was mentioned in a context, where someone talked about how nice Buffy`s hair looked after she crawled out of her grave.

It absolutely matters. Because I, the person who added it to the quotes, didn't see any relation to Spuffy in it. Or I wouldn't have added it.

But if you as the admin of this board take the quote out of that particular context and put it up on the quotations, I cannot help to feel, that this is a statement. Of course you are entitled to make whatever statement you want.

I've just explained to you how adding that quote was not a statement. Which you could have found out by opening a thread in the help forum that said, "Hey, I feel like this quote is anti Spuffy, was that your intent when you added it?" And I would have said no, and explained to you why I added it, and then I probably would have deleted it so there wasn't confusion.

flow said:
Why do some people feel the need for a safe haven ? Why do some people feel, they can talk and discuss openly only or at least more so within this safe haven ?

Probably because people, despite my and our staff's best efforts, can't seem to treat each other's opinions with respect.

flow said:
Every single topic that has been discussed on the Bangels or the Spuffy fan club in the past could have been read by every other member of this board, if they wanted to read it. If I found a particular Bangel thread very interesting, I could have just opened a new thread wherever on this board and could have discussed it with everyone. Technically I could have even joined in every thread on the Bangels fan club. I would not have done it, because the description said, that this section was for Bangel fans only and I did and do not identify myself as such. But really, I do understand, that from you point of view there is no change at all, because non-shippers were always allowed to post in the shipper Fanclubs and even did sometimes. And I was more than willing, to accept your decision antry not to feel, as if a safe haven has been taken away from me.

Perhaps instead of railing at me about some quote, you might have calmly and rationally expressed concerns you had about this, in this thread? But also, you might have given it more than a day before deciding that the board as you knew it was ruined because we changed a few words in a forum description. I asked that people give it a try, and said that things could be changed if it didn't work. So far, there has been no reason to not give it the benefit of the doubt.

flow said:
But having to read the anti season 6 quote, that was put up by you and showed up as a random Quote just the same day, does give me the impression, I am not wanted here any more.

I still don't understand how a quote about season 6 has anything to do with Spuffy?

If you or anyone else is going to take the position that I am pushing people off the board, with no evidence of that whatsoever, and in fact with much evidence to the contrary, then there's nothing I can say to change your mind about it and I won't try.

flow said:
And to make that very clear as well: I have never ever screamed at you or any admin or member of this board.

I never said you screamed at me, I said that people who wanted me to get rid of the fan forums altogether have been screaming at me.
 

flow

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
813
@Mr. Pole:

When you say, "I don`t like season 6 " I am perfectly fine with that and you are very welcome to discuss with me why you dislike it or why I like it. And we can have this discussion everywhere on this forum. But when somebody says "season 6 stinks", that is, the point, where I not only stop to take part in a discussion, I also stop, reading, what other people say. And I am actually fine with other people discussion the stinkiness of season 6, wherever they want. In my opinion, if you don`t like it, don`t watch it. The same goes for threads. i don`t like them ? I don`t read them. And that is the reason, why I fell the need for a safe haven, that is - hopefully - just one of several dozens subforums on this board, where a season 6 stinks thread is not very likely to pop up.

flow
 
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